After reading all these threads on here and a few other forums (inliners, hotrodders, etc) I began tossing around the idea of converting my 235 to electronic fuel injection. Currently I have a clifford 2/4bbl intake with a 4bbl adapter and holley 390cfm carb so I have the intake manifold covered for such a conversion. What parts would I need for this conversion. I would hope most of it would be able to come from donor vehicles as I live very close to a u-pull-it yard and can easily and very cheaply get almost any part needed. Is there a TBI unit that would bolt onto my intake manifold and be sized properly for a 235? Im good with electronics and wiring and have a good understanding of computerized engine controls so getting and making a ecm to work shouldn't be too much of a challenge.
List of current engine mods are clifford tube style headers and a H.E.I. Conversion (modified GM 250 distributor)
I'm not going to be much help on this one but I'm thinking the parts off a mid-80's S-10 should work as these engines are pretty close, cubic-inch-wise. You could prolly adapt the TBI unit to your clifford with some kind of adapter. Your probably going to need the fuel tank (fuel return line?) fuel pump, wiring harness, sensors, control box, and.......?? Interesting concept, hopefully someone else with more expertise on this will drop by.
looks like what I'm after is a tbi setup off of a late 80's to early 90's 4.3L V6, preferably off of a full size gm. Must get the TBI throttle body, wiring harness and all applicable sensors (IAC, TPS, MAP, IAT, CTS, etc) and then the engine computer. Should be able to get all this from the local yard for around $60. Also need to get the pieces to change over the inners of the GM 250 distributor to computer controlled advance (instead of vacuum).
I have a tool to plug my laptop into the engine computer and run diagnostics and with a special program I can edit the program to remove the vehicle speed sensor and egr and what ever else needs to be modified.
Currently on my 235 is a brand new (almost a year old but bearly used) Holley 390cfm carb modified (jets and nozzles) to work on a 235/261. If this conversion works, I guess I will either put the carb away and save it for a future project or sell it.
you could always simply find a Holley Pro-Jection 2Di unit. Or the complete kit from a 4.3 would be fine. If you want to go twin TB's, then get a pair from 2.0 liter Cavaliers and use only 1 TPS.
The problems we face today can not be addressed at the same level of intelligence we were at when we created them - Albert Einstein Or with the same level of $ - Me
Just got done doing that, look at my post on this form ( 261 with TBI] The 4.3 injectors could be a little big but you could change them out for some smaller ones if you needed to. I bought the TBI adapter that goes on the clifford intake. You can look at the pictures that are posted in the thread.
thanks, I looked over your thread. Looks like a very nice setup, really cool. I was originally going to leave out the knock sensor as the person in the jeep article does, but I think I will keep it, drain plug on the driver side should work fine.
The nice thing about this TBI setup as Ive been looking at the wiring diagrams is there isn't a whole lot of wires. Im already planning the routing for the wires and the computer. My plan is to keep the tbi wiring completely seperate from the rest of the truck wiring (lights, charging system, etc), I also want to make it so there isn't a lot of wiring running all over the engine. There will be two wire grommets on the firewall, one on the driverside of the block and one on the passenger side. There will be about 14 wires coming out on the driverside to the needed sensors, injectors, etc. About 9 wires on the passenger side to the distributor, fuel pump relay and coolant temp sensor in the feed neck. The computer will be mounted on the passenger kick panel, as high as it will go as to not be seen.
Currently the feed neck on my 54 235 only has 1 place for a fitting and its used for the hot water heat on my intake. I imagine a feed neck off of a later 235 or 261 will bolt up ??? If so there is either a later 235 or 261 in a AD truck at the local yard that has a feed neck with two fittings, so I could use the other one for the temp sensor. Thats about the only other place I can put the sensor as the one on the head has the temp gauge probe.
I drilled the head and installed the temp sensor. Bought a new fuel pump that mounts out side of tank at the parts store. Make sure that you get a fuel pump thats used of TBI. I used the drain plug in the gas tank as the fuel feed with a fuel injection filter before the pump. The old fuel line to the tank became the return line. I mounted the ECM below the fuse block on the drivers side. My heater is on the passenger side.
you woundn't happen to have a part number for the fuel pump, would you? Id Im hoping to just find a good pump at the u-pull-it yard for now. I don't want to sink a ton of money into this until I know it works the way Im hoping. A few pump at the yard is like $10, compared to $75 and up for a new pump. Im planning to get everything I need from the local yard, aside from fuel line and so on. Goal for now is to spend no more than $100 on this swap. New and aftermarket parts will come if I can sell the holley 4bbl that is on it now.
TBI is a 1 bar pump (15 psi) MPI is a 3 bar pump (45 psi). They all flow between 40 - 60 GPM at 0 head for a stock vehicle.
Aftermarket pumps can flow up to 10bar and 600 GPM.
Chris, I would look into any in-tank pump and mount it within a small reservoir with both a supply and return line or look to get a used Holley DFi pump off of ebay.
The problems we face today can not be addressed at the same level of intelligence we were at when we created them - Albert Einstein Or with the same level of $ - Me
There is a 53 in my area that has a 62 235 with the set up off a 3.8 V6 used in the GM cars in the 80's and 90's. He said the 3.8 (231ci) was so close in displacement that few mods were necessary.
A Bosch rotary pump from a mid-1980's Volvo or one of the early Cadillac digital fuel injection systems is a frame-mounted item that will provide plenty of pressure and volume for that setup. Mount it near the tank and filter the fuel well. The excess fuel acts as a coolant for the injector magnetic coils. Jerry
"It is better to be silent and be thought a fool than to speak and eliminate all doubt!" - Abraham Lincoln Cringe and wail in fear, Eloi- - - - -we Morlocks are on the hunt! There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self. - Ernest Hemingway Love your enemies and drive 'em nuts!
going to wait till the weather gets warmer before I go to the yard to get everything I will need to do this conversion.
Because of the rotary pumps poor ability to pull fuel, especially up hill, I have to raise the tank up a bit and rerun my fuel lines and install the pump and post filter farther back. I installed a summit racing 16gal fuel cell behind the rear axle, and the discharge is at the bottom of the tank. I took some 2" square tubing and cut 4 blocks out to raise the tank up.
I am still planning to do the switch over, just waiting for a nice weekend (50's or higher and sunny) and/or a sale to go to the local yard and get what I need. I made a list of everything I should need from both the yard and summitracing.com
Total so far comes to about $200.
Good news to me anyways, my brothers programmer/tuner thing already came with everything I will need (program/file wise) to make the changes needed to the computer. The 747 and 746 computer must be very popular unit. From what I read I need to take out the vss and egr.
Talking with EFI-DIY I may leave the vss in if I find a T5 with an electronic speedometer drive instead of the mechanical drive (I have to buy a speedometer yet anyways). With the vss, the engine will lean out the fuel when at a cruising speed, so that should help out the fuel mileage a bit.
Well it was somewhat a nice day yesturday so I went and got most of what I need to do this swap at the local yard.
I picked up the following so far -4.3L TBI Unit off a 90 s10 - $20 -Wiring harness off a suburban, had a v8 but the harness is the exact same as what is used for the 4.3L v6 in the full size vehicles. - $20 -Engine Control Module (ECM, computer, etc), serial 1227747, came out of a 5.7L v8 so I grabbed the eprom & calpak out of a computer for a 4.3L v6 (didn't take the computer because the model wasn't a 747 or 746). - $30 -Also grabbed a map sensor and coolant temp sensor as well.
I need to get the following and then I can get to work - TBI rebuild kit - TBI Adapter. Im thinking of just making one, design on CAD and then have the local machine shop cut it out of 3/8 or 1/2 steel or aluminum, I have some 3/8" aluminum plate at home so I might use that. I know they sell 4bbl to tbi adapters but this way I can eliminate a few gaskets and problem points and bolt the tbi plate directly to my clifford 2/4bbl manifold. - External mount fuel pump, a post pump filter and some various fittings and 3/8" fuel line - EFI-DIY suggested getting some eproms and calpaks for a 2.8L v6 and try a few different combinations of chips and injectors. Maybe I should check the computers in a 3.8L v6 and see if those chips will work as well, might be closer. - I currently have a 250 HEI distributor but it is vacuum advance, I need to get the parts to convert it to computer controlled. - I also have to get a knock sensor and electronic spark control module (esc) off of a 250 inline 6, if I can find one, if not I will try the one for the 4.3 - O2 sensor, not sure which one would be best, one from a 250 or a 4.3L
just came across a link that may help others look for a suitable tbi unit if they are also considering going the efi route. Gives a list of what vehicle, the year it can be found on and the size motor it came on.
I just bought the remaining parts I should need for the conversion. Im thinking of making this a tech tip so I will definitely be taking lots of pictures.
You could have put a pair of 2 liter TB's on there with a dual carb manifold to be different.
Either way, good work so far.
Scott
The problems we face today can not be addressed at the same level of intelligence we were at when we created them - Albert Einstein Or with the same level of $ - Me
yeah if I didn't already have the clifford intake I probably would of gone that route
now Im just working on finding a new home for the holley carb that I had on it.
Still need a few more items, like a fuel pump and a knock sensor. TBI plate is just about finished. I need to weld on a small plate as I didn't measure right and made one of the sides too short and now about less than 1/8" of the idle air control valve camber on the bottom of the tbi unit is exposed, making for a really bad vacuum leak. After I weld that on, Ill paint it and install it on the intake.
Next would be to mount the computer, install all the sensors and then run the wires.
The only external factory pump I can think was on a F@#d pickup but those are all MPFI so the psi would be to high.I have actually installed a kit from http://www.affordable-fuel-injection.com/index.php on the 300 F@#d for a GSE tug.All the parts are GM except the TB adapter and the pump .Take a look at the video and you can see the components used and the installation video.Currently American Airlines converts all of their tugs to this set up.The Blue oval guys would'nt like this HaHa .
In the works 2006 GEN III 6.0 /4L80E/ 205 New process,A/C and power brakes .
Ford - 87-91 country squire - 83-86 LTD - 87-91 LTD Crown Victoria - 85-89 Bronco - 86-91 Econoline - 87-89 F-series trucks - 83-85 Mustang - Lincoln - 80-83 Mark VI - 81-89 Town Car - Mercury - 87-91 Colony Park - 83-89 Grand Marquis
got the tbi plate finished and mounted and put the tbi on as well. I have to shorten the 3 bolts for the tbi a little bit as they bottom out on the intake. Im pretty sure I will leave it in the position that it is in currently. Plan is to run 3/8" steel hard line up the passenger side of the firewall, over the engine to the drivers side and down and into the tbi unit. Probably best to wrap the fuel line in heat tape or something as it would be running over the intake and exhaust manifolds.
Also mounted the computer on the passenger side kick panel.
I need to get a throttle cable from the local yard, hopefully it will hook up to my Lokar pedal.
OK, made some good progress today, I will post pictures tomorrow of what I got done.
I went to the local yard and got a thermostat housing off a 261 that has two ports so I can install the coolant temp sensor and keep my hot water heat for my clifford intake.
I got about 75% of the wiring done, most sensors are wired. Whats left is the power wires from the fuse block, distributor modification, fuel pump wiring, esc/knock sensor wiring and some smaller stuff.
I was reading online about others doing fuel injection conversions using tbi and what fuel pump to use. A bunch of mixed out comes with different pumps. The ford external pump got a lot of mixed reviews, some said it worked fine, others said it didn't provide enough pressure. I ended up buying a new pump from summit racing. I went with a Carter P5001 pump made specifically for TBI conversions, that supplies a max 20psi and 50gph. A bit more than I wanted to spend at $150, but everyone that used it was very pleased with it and I figured it would be better than a 20-/+ year old pump from the junkyard. http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1∂=CRT-P5001&N=700+115&autoview=sku
About 90% of the wiring is complete, its was a lot easier than I expected, was a bit daunting looking at that nest of wiring at first but I think it turned out nice and took shape quickly.
I used velcro to mount the esc to the computer, that way if it gives me problems, I will just remove the knock sensor and esc completely, nice an easy to remove and no holes to patch up.
I need to weld in the O2 sensor bung yet, I also decided its probably best to buy a new O2 sensor. Since I have dual exhaust, which exhaust should I put the O2 sensor in, the front or back or does it not matter?
I though I had got lucky and got the stuff to change the gm 250 distributor over to computer control and keep it all in the distributor but it didn't turn out as I expected. I pickup up the ignition control module and such out of a mid 80's v6 car, and even test fitted it in another 250 distributor in the yard, but when I got back home, I tried installing it in my distributor but the two screws that hold the module down were about 1/4" further apart. When I go back to the yard Im going to try the ignition module in the dist. that I test fitted it in to see if maybe they changed it at some point as I thought the mounting holes lined up. Here is what I picked up. http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w124/rockfan1815/TBI%20CONVERSION/100_0775.jpg
For now I'm just going to mount the ignition module on the passenger side inner fender and run the wires over to the distributor like the guy did on the bustedjeep.com junkyard tbi conversion that was posted earlier.
this is up to where I am at right now. Should be done, if nothing else comes, this weekend. I need to get a new ignition switch as the one I bought is a piece of crap, for some reason when the key is in run, the start terminal is powered, and then goes off when I turn the key to start. Cheap crap I bought at autozone.
Just thinking of stuff to do/finish before I start her up...Is there anything I can do to fool the computer into thinking the egr valve is still plugged in, a resistor in line or something. Im just thinking that if I leave it missing and go to start it up that I will always have a engine light on and be in limp mode because the computer does not see the egr valve. Id like to be able to see if any other problems come up and see the light turn on when something pops its head out.
Just about done. Wiring is 99% complete, all that is left is the check engine light, I have the other wiring nicely coverd in wire loom. I ordered a much better igniton switch from summit, way better than the $6 piece of crap I bought locally. O2 sensor bung is welded in, picking up a new O2 sensor and a coolant temp sensor tonight. Fuel line is somewhat ran, I bent some 3/8" and 5/16" hard line for in the engine compartment, starts on the passenger side frame, up along the firewall, over to the driver side and down to the tbi unit. Supply and return lines are ran, just need to pick up some more insulated clamps to secure them to the frame. Calling lokar tonight to see about a cable end to connect my lokar throttle cable to the tbi unit.
I ordered some heat tape to wrap the fuel lines that go over the intake and exhaust manifolds. I may also put some type of shield that if any fuel does start to leak, it will go away from the manifolds.
For the most part the conversion is done. Before I start it I have a few more things I need to finish. I need to weld in some exhaust flex pipes in after the header flanges. http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w124/rockfan1815/100_0867.jpg (like my model 1952 chevy pickup)
I need to install my new ignition switch and I also ordered two magnaflow mufflers that Id like to install as soon as I get them.
I bought a piston stop so I can put timing marks on the crank pulley instead of using the flywheel and bell housing method for initial timing. I also need to get the belts so I will be able to run it for a bit longer than a few minutes.
Well I ran into bit of a problem, I wanted to purge the fuel lines to make sure I didn't have any leaks before I started it up for the first time. So I hooked up a wire (with a 20amp fuse) to the positive post on the battery and connected the other end to the positive wire on the fuel pump and.................NOTHING...well almost, the pump makes a click, more like a clank and that is it. I unhooked the rubber fuel line where it connects to the line I have on the firewall and tired it again and once again all I got was a clank noise.
I believe this is a solenoid type pump. It will continue to make a clanking noise each time I apply power, but thats it. Guess I will have to call carter up and see what they say.
OK I was going to wait until tomorrow to figure this out but just couldn't sit still.....
I tried a few things and nothing worked so I removed the pump completely thinking I was going to have to send it back. I said what the hell and decided to see what would happen if I connected it directly to another 12v battery I had in the garage and it came to life. That had me stumped. I reinstalled the pump with a few changes to the plumbing and will wait till tomorrow to finish and try it again. I need to resolder the power wire to the pump wire. I am going to put a better (lack of a better word) ground strap from the bell housing to the frame rail. Originally I had tested for continuity from the frame rail to the battery and it seemed fine, but I didn't really have a ground strap to the frame rail at the moment (it was in the plans). Before I try again tomorrow I am going to put a 8 gauge ground strap from the bell housing (where the battery ground connects to) to the frame rail. Hopefully that is what the problem is.
Took some 8 gauge wire that I had, soldered some copper 5/16" and 3/8" lugs on and installed them from the bell housing to the right and left frame rails, put power to the fuel pump and it came to life. I had the fuel line disconnected where it connects to the hard line I have on the firewall, and emptying into a gas can. Reconnected it and checked for fuel leaks. All was good.
Currently painting the mufflers I got, once I install them and wire in a switched accessory relay so I don't fry another ignition switch and also wrap the fuel lines with heat tape where they pass over the exhaust and intake manifolds, and I should be ready to start her up (fingers crossed).
Also going to load the tuner program on my laptop and change the setting for the egr.
Working on uploading a video of it running, will post it when its finished. Currently it idles a bit high at around 900 or so. Not sure how to correct this???
Otherwise seems to run very nice. Starts up instantly and idles quite smooth.
Ford - 87-91 country squire - 83-86 LTD - 87-91 LTD Crown Victoria - 85-89 Bronco - 86-91 Econoline - 87-89 F-series trucks - 83-85 Mustang - Lincoln - 80-83 Mark VI - 81-89 Town Car - Mercury - 87-91 Colony Park - 83-89 Grand Marquis
Hello, I have used your list (great!) but noticed that these pumps have a Ford-specific connector at both end to attach the fuel line. How did you work around this? Did you buy an aftermarket connector (maybe Aeroquip...), or...? Also, on this long thread, I have not seen mentioned where you connect the return line to the tank. One last thing, did you put baffle inside your tank? I was wondering if I could find the whole "bucket" from an EFI vehicle, to mount on my tank; this way, it would give me in-tank fuel pump and pick-up, gauge sender, return line... Anyone has thoughts on this?
