The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area Engine Shop to pull the pan or not to pull the pan

I've read several posts regarding pulling the oil pan, but none addresses my specific question. Would appreciate any advice.

I have a '51 3100 with a 216. She has sat in a pasture for 15 years and in storage for the last 5. Over the last year I have got her running and got her nearly legal, and I'm within a week of being able to drive her on the road and let her breathe.

However, I feel a strong urge to pull the oil pan and inspect things, like the oil pump sump and sludge buildup, plus I'm just curious what things look like in there, as this is my first project. But I have no desire for another involved project at this time. I want to take it off, look inside it, clean it up, put it back on, and drive it.

So my question is, am I in for more than I expect by taking off the oil pan? For example, will I have problems removing the pan and need to unbolt other things to get it off? Will I have problems getting a good seal when I reinstall with a new gasket (I think it leaks there now and hope that a new gasket fixes that)? Will I have to mess with shims or other adjustments?

Any thoughts are welcome. I'm very psyched about getting Old Red back on the road. She has been in my family for 50 years, and I've had tons of fun and satisfaction bringing her back to life. Many thanks to many of you and the Stovebolt for help in that endeavor.

D.J.,

I totally sympathize with your gut instinct to check the underside. We'd all be happier if "pullin' the pan" weren't such a chore, which it really is. OK, it's not hard to get off, I don't think you'd have to pull anything else, 'cept maybe the clutch drip pan/shield thingy. The bigger problem is getting it back on. I got mine back on, I thought tight, but it ended up leaking horribly. I took it off twice and tried to re-install it, but it wouldn't seal up.

I sent it to a guy who tried it once, and it leaked. Then, he said the secret was "you had to tweek the pan" before putting it on, ie: twist it a certain way, so it would seal up. Now maybe that's just my truck, but it wasn't fun.

So . . . I would definitely pull the pan (you'll sleep better and relax while driving), but I would have a friend near-by to help with the re-install, and bring lots of patience . . .

-my .02 worth

-Michael

If it's not broken, don't fix it. providing you have good oil pressure and all fluid levels stay up there then leave well enought alone.
Small trips at first untill you have your confindence built up.
Don't be afraid to change your oil after a few trips and then go from there.

DJ
I would have to agree with westratedel. If your oil pressure is good and the engine sounds ok, drive it for awhile easy and just get the feel of it. Most of those old ones do have sludge in them, so eventually you probably have to open it up and clean it up. But for now just take it easy and get the feel of it. You will have a better idea what needs to be done after it has been run some.
Jim

Thank you all so much for your advice. Mikestem, after your lead-in comments, I thought for sure you were going to tell me to skip it, so you surprised me with 'definitely' in bold.

Given the thought that if I have good oil pressure, I'm likely OK for now, I will go with the suggestion to hold off. But I'm still very curious to see what's in there.

Thanks again, gents.

p.s. I'm going with oil from my FLAPS rated for "high-mileage vehicles", over 75,000 miles.

Be very careful when inspecting a 216. Both the rod caps and mains use shims which MUST go back exactly as removed and some of the very thin shims are easy to wrinkle or tear. The pan is targeted when installed on the block so that the streams of oil from the squirter tubes hit directly in the center of the dippers on the rod caps. Get this off and you burn a babbitt rod. Since it runs you can get it very warm by covering at least part of the radiator and then draining the oil while it is still hot. The sludge will drain out when hot so repeat this at each oil change. After driving it if it needs attention get a shop manual and study the part on fitting bearings and aligning the pan. We all started somewhere and your curiosity is a good sign.

Evan makes a good point about the inside stuff for the oil pan. If the engine has lots of sludge in it then pulling the pan to clean the dipper trays makes lots of sense. But as mentioned make sure you get a shop manual and then locate the alignment tools to make sure everything is lined up. The troughs are the source of oil for the connecting rod journals.

Don

If you're concerned about sludge, try one of the commercial "engine flush" products just before changing the oil, but don't drive it while the flushing product is in there. Just run the engine at a fast idle for the reccomended time, which is usually 10-15 minutes, then drain the oil while it's hot. You could use the old standby flushing method, which involved adding a quart or two of kerosene to the oil and doing the warmup/drain thing. If the pan's not leaking now, and the rods aren't rattling, better leave well enough alone!
Jerry

For the potential sludge matter, I agree with Hotrod Lincoln; try a commercial engine flush product, used as directed. If you want to remove the oil pan, that is not a major job; you do have to remove the clutch covers, as mentioned by Mikestem. Cleaning the gasket surfaces may be more trouble than removing the pan itself. Reasons for oil pans leaking are usually incomplete cleaning of the gasket surfaces, and deformation of the pan gasket surface caused by over-tightening the pan bolts (the stove bolts). If the pan gasket surface is not deformed around the bolt holes, you shouldn't have any trouble sealing the pan. The gasket package includes two end seals that fit the main bearing caps and seal the ends of the pan. There is no need to glue any of those gaskets in place, although that was fairly common in the past. If the pan is not visibly damaged, there should be no need to use the target gauge for checking the oil pipes and rod dippers. The open side of the dippers face the cam shaft, or the open ends of the oil pipes. Also, you shouldn't mess with the connecting rods, except to see if the dippers are all in place and the rods all are the same color- brownish and oily. If you see a dark blue/black rod cap, there is a bearing failure there, but you probably would already hear it knocking. You can push fore and aft on each rod cap, on the bolts, or at the bottom center of the cap, and it probably will move slightly, which is all right, but don't push on the dippers. The cap/rod should not move at all if you push sideways, across the journal. If a rod moves in that direction, the bearing is loose- and you need further instructions.

If you see that the gasket surface around the bolt holes on the pan is raised above the surface between the holes, support the pan under the holes and tap the top surface flush. That usually will prevent leakage; then when you tighten the bolts, don't tighten them until the gasket squishes out- that's too tight.

Harvester

i agree with hotrod lincoln i would send it out to a shop that does engine flushes so i would not have to be layin on my back

changing the oil and subtitute a qt. of ATF for the 5th qt. that will clean out just about any sludge built up.

Just a thought, this is not a full flow filter engine. If I did not pull the pan I would make sure to use a non-detergent oil when I ran it and stay away from any of the sludge cleaning procedures that require the engine to run while doing it like the ATF method.
Jason

Helipackmech, could you elaborate on the implications of it not being a full flow filter engine? What does that mean? I just bought a new filter and I'm pretty sure it's a "full flow filter". Did I buy the wrong filter? My truck has a canister with a screw-on top, and the filter goes in this canister. I assumed if it fit in the canister, it was the right filter.

On that topic, the old filter from the previous owner was a smaller diameter than what I just bought. The old filter had about 1/2-inch space all the way around between it and the canister walls. The larger diameter one I just bought has less clearance between the sides of the filter and the sides of the canister. Common sense tells me there will be more restriction to oil flow with less space between the filter and the canister. Any thoughts on this? (The old filter was a 1010; the new one is a 1100, one from NAPA, one from O'Reilly, both made by Wix).

The 216 engine had a by-pass filter which only filters some of the oil as it returns to the pan. Only something like 20% of the oil gets filtered as it goes through the engine. A full flow filter engine, filters all the oil as it flows through the engine. If you use a detergent oil like most oils available today you may loosen that sludge that will be in the bottom of your pan.These old engines used non-detergent oil.As for the filter canister, it was an option on these engines and not required (But a very good idea to have).I would guess your filter would be just fine but I would ask some of the other bolters on that. I am not good on the computer so hope I made sense.
Jason

I see. The concept of by-pass versus full-flow makes sense to me. I understand why you wouldn't want to knock loose a bunch of crud if you have a by-pass filter system. Thanks for the explanation.

I said definately, just because my solution to most problems with these engines is to "tear it down completely!" It's become a running joke with my friends. Now, of course, I have 4-ish trucks, all torn down to one stage or another. I guess I'll have to figure out how to build 'em back up someday . . .

I had always thought full-flow filters were better, just by the name. I recently, however, was given to understand that by-pass filters, although they only filter 10%-ish of the oil at a time, can filter out smaller dirt particles, especially the 10-20 micron size that cause a greater part of engine wear and damage. The "by-pass" allows them to do this without restricting the oil flow or changing the oil pressure. Over a reasonable drive time, all the oil will be filtered.

Because the full-flow filter is passing all the oil through it, it's not quite as stringent about the dirt it filters, lest it clog up too soon. On the other hand, all the oil gets filtered sooner.

Of course, cars today ALL have full-flow filters, so they must be effective. Anyway, I don't think less of "by-pass" filters anymore. And, if you get a FRANTZ Oil Filter , you can use toilet paper as your filter!!!

I wonder how many 10-micron particles Charmin can stop?!!

The advice about not using detergent oil in stovebolt engines went out of date before most of the members of this forum were born. The only thing running a ND oil will do is assure that all the dirt particles too small for the filter to strain out will get deposited somewhere inside the engine as sludge.

A full flow filter has to have filter media with pores big enough to allow enough oil to flow through it NOT to drop oil pressure below safe limits. It has to allow all the output of the oil pump to pass through the filter before getting to the bearings. One engineer I knew used to say "A full flow filter is for rocks, marbles, and other big chunks!" A bypass filter can be much more restrictive, resulting in more effective filtration, because it simply dumps the filtered oil back into the oil pan. For the best engine protection, an engine should really have both types of filters, like a lot of the over-the-road diesels do. The Frantz filter can trap particles down to 2/10 micron, or 0.0002 inches. Obviously, it must be used as a bypass filter.

Detergent oil traps and holds dirt particles in suspension that are small enough to pass through the lubrication system without doing any damage, and they are drained out at every oil change. Using ATF as a "cleaner" is a really bad idea, as it has various friction enhancers in it that should NEVER be run in an engine's lubrication system.
Jerry