The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area Engine Shop 261 short water pump

Does anyone know if 261's use the same water pump as 235's? I need to get a shortened water pump for my 59' 261 to put it in a '48 truck. If they're the same I will get one of the shortened water pumps readily available for 235's.

Thanks

If you are asking if a short shaft water pump for a 1959 235 will work on a 1959 261, the answer is yes.

I know you did not ask, Terence, but I would like to suggest that you consider using a 1948 water pump with an adapter plate to fit the 1959 261. This will place the water pump in a better location relative to the middle of your radiator.

Jim Carter sells these plates and they can be bought on eBay (search eBay for "235 pump adapter").

http://shop.ebay.com/items/_W0QQ_nkwZ235Q20pumpQ20adapterQQ_armrsZ1QQ_fromZR40QQ_mdoZ

Be sure to ask for installation instructions. I bought a plate from Jim Carter and from the eBay seller - neither one sent instructions. Jim Carter emailed them immediately, after I asked for them. They were very good instructions, EXCEPT in the case of suggesting that seals/gaskets were not needed. Use seals/gaskets on both sides of the plate.

Tim

Thanks for the info, thats probably the way I'll go.

Having installed two of the adaptor plate setups, I would suggest that you use #2 Permatex as opposed to RVT. Likewise on the thermostat housing. While RVT is a good product in certain applications, it is most effective if applied, snugged, allowed to set up and then torqued down. You can torque the #2 and you'll be good to go.

I have the instruction sheets for the adaptor plate installation in my Webshots album. Click on "full size" so you can read the print. Hope this helps.

Dave

I found Dave's (Fla54Chevy3100) webshots album to be very helpful. Thanks, Dave.

I also used a sealer like #2 Permatex on both sides of each of the gaskets. Wish I had done this first, instead of following the directions.

http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2803060960090459121lrHQVU

Webshots is no more.
Can anyone share a copy of these instructions?

Many thanks.
mark.

Yeah, I too would like to see why people are changing the water pump location and all of the ramifications of doing it. I would love to modify mine if it makes sense.

The Jim Carter short shaft pump for the 235/261 and then Jim's suggestion that I use a flat back (original 216) fan blade gave me plenty of room, the temperature stays at 180 just as it should, and all is right with the world. But I have only tested in 72 degrees. Pics of this setup would be really nice.

"Yeah, I too would like to see why people are changing the water pump location and all of the ramifications of doing it."

Use the Search feature/box on the upper left, search on: water pump relocation plate

Basically, this relocation plate places the original style 1955-1st and earlier water pump in the correct location relative to the radiator. This results in the most efficient cooling arrangement when using a 1955 and later 235/261 that has a lower-mounted vanes-in-the-block water pump. A few holes have to be enlarged/drilled and tapped in the block.

The short shaft pump is another (usually more expensive) solution that usually results in satisfactory cooling.

https://www.stovebolt.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=851680

I have read most of it awhile ago, but you have to shorten the shaft of the stock water pump somehow. The length of the motor just makes that necessary with the adapter plate or without. I don't see anywhere in the archives where there is a picture of this adapter plate. This is why I asked?

"This is why I asked?"

Sorry, I did not (do not) see your earlier question.

" . . . you have to shorten the shaft of the stock water pump somehow. The length of the motor just makes that necessary with the adapter plate or without."

That is incorrect. As I posted above, with the adapter plate (relocation plate) you do not use the "stock" newer-style water pump, you use a "stock" older style pump. You do not have to shorten the shaft of that older style pump.

Do you have a newer-style and an older-style water pump available, so you can compare them and so you can see the differences?

"I don't see anywhere in the archives where there is a picture of this adapter plate."

Archives of what?

Did you look at the links to photos by Bigtonka at the link I posted?

I found that thread by Bigtonka by doing the search that I suggested above.

There are older-style and newer-style water pumps shown in this presentation by Pre '68 Dave.

Can this adapter plate conversion be done without pulling the engine or pulling the front clip?

Looks to me like it would be tight quarters in the truck.

Pull the grill and the rad and you should be fine.

How much does the early style pump cost?

What year pump? There were two pulley sizes.

About $63 for 1952 and earlier and and $95 for 53-55st at Rockauto.com (I think they have 1953 wrong). Check out NAPA on-line.

Tim, just an FYI.
"Archives of what".

You suggested,
"Use the Search feature/box on the upper left".

When Deve did the search he was searching the Archives.

Oh, OK. Thanks, Tom

Is that the "Stovebolt Site Search"?

Those "archives", I guess, is where I found Bigtonka's photos of the adapter plates, using the search criteria that I posted. I hope those photos were helpful. Better yet, I hope someone posts a "photo-log" (photos and descriptions/instructions) of the steps for installing the adapter plate.

I think we should have some stovebolt.com prize/recognition, analogous to Nobel prizes, such as:

Pre '68 Dave should get one for facilitating the perpetuation of stovebolt engine transplants.

Keith Hardy should get one for providing Stovebolt documentation.

Alvin Chipmunk should get one for his welcoming/meeting/greeting new members.

The Milliman's should get one for keeping us alive.

I do have the installation instructions on my Blog.
I will have to do a blow by blow, although just the instructions alone have worked fine for several thousand people.

What you get here sometimes is people like TIM who are so familiar with the archives, he assumes everyone else should be as well. So then he gets a little cranky when you don't just pull the information you need outta your [censored].

In his defense, he should also be on HIS list of people who really do a great job at informing us all. His knowledge of part numbers and applications is second to none. And, further, how arrogant and jackassy would you be if you spend as much time as he does helping others?

Thanks Tim for all you do. Meanwhile, adapter plates do not move the engine backwards and still require water pumps that fit. I have several 235/261 water pumps here that the shaft is so long, you would have to cut the radiator in half for them to fit. The term "short shaft' may mean one thing to you, but what it means to me is the darn thing fits between the engine and the radiator with at least 5/16" of clearance on an AD. I have seen literally hundreds of AD's that are hacked up, the radiator moved forward, etc because of this issue. Would be nice to write something on how to avoid this and improve performance. We all have our different levels of knowledge on these trucks, and NONE of us have all the information we will eventually need. So, what I try to do is explain things in detail. If I write it, I seldom get asked for clarification. People are skeptical about drilling holes in the front of their engine. I also think Pre '68 Dave should be put on that list among others because he has some real knowledge about these issues and never afraid to share it. Its not that hard to just be nice and not make other people look small. If you need help in writing something up about this, I am always happy to help. Its what I do.

Dave,

Do you have your instructions on-line. I did not receive a set of instructions with the plates I bought and I dimly recall you posted them here.

Thanks,

Deve,
I think you may not have understood what the adapter plate does. Have a look at Dave's photos here, starting at number 16. Adapter The older style water pump used with the adapter fits on the block in the same place as the original 216. It doesn't stick out any further than the original 216 pump did.

I did this mod on my '61 235 and did not have to shorten the water pump shaft. You use a '41-54 water pump. I used the '54 with narrow pully. Worked great.

Dennis

My understanding is that the plate moves the waterpump UP so that the pump is more centered with the center of the radiator. Sounds like a worthwhile thing to do. Thing is, in the years 55-62, the radiators moved and Chevy made some long shaft pumps, and I find them on these old farm ADs all the time. So, the point on my part was, you cant just keep your original 235 pump necessarily. A farmer will do almost anything to keep what they have, so that meant moving the radiator forward, hacking the sheetmetal, etc. I cant read the .pdf where I am, but I will do that tomorrow. If the plate is 1/4 inch thick, and the current space between the stock radiator location and the fan blades are 5/16" using the short shaft water pump and flat back blades, I am having trouble deciding how I wouldn't have 1/16" gap using the shortest shaft solution purchasing high dollar parts? I am not trying to be contrary, sometimes it just takes me asking the same question differently a few thousand times. LOL

There is a plate on the back of the older style pump.

That plate gets removed and is discarded.

Dave's relocation plate is installed in the place of that discarded plate.

The adapted old-style pump is now no thicker than the original un-adapted older-style pump.

The adapted old-style pump can now be mounted on the newer-style block and this results in an original-style fan blade and pulley being no closer to the radiator than the original fan blade and pulley on an original A-D or earlier engine.

Yeah, it's been a while and the 1/2 life of my memory isn't what it used to be so maybe the earlier pumps and pullys were more shallow than '55 and later. I'll take a measurement tomorrow and tell you the distance from the block to pully.

Dennis

Yeah, the lights are coming on.. slowly! Usually when someone sells an adapter plate for something its an ADD-on.. this is much better! Thanks for your patience. Now is the time for me to do this before I have the sheetmetal on the truck.

Tim, they are on my Blog.
Who did you get yours from? I will talk to them about getting the instructions in with the plate.

I got mine years ago, Dave
- First set from eBay - no instructions
- Second set from Jim Carter - instructions included, but I cannot find them now

Your blog entry on the Water Pump Relocation Adapter is very good.

Thanks Tim!
I am surprised the one from eBay did not have the instructions, that would have been directly from me. Must have been Monday morning when I sent that out.

Here are some of my pictures of my adapter plate installation. adapter plate
Use a 1953-1954 car water pump for a 235,it has the 3/8" pulley.The napa part number will be 58-126


Tim

I wonder if this adapter plate will fix THIS problem...

The HB Tool I made would have the same basic properties as anyone elses, and I cant turn the engine over with my tool (or probably yours) because the shaft hits the fan blade. Here's the tool, and the problem..

http://s160.photobucket.com/user/st...50%20Chevy/DSC00620_zps4d59ebd8.jpg.html

http://s160.photobucket.com/user/st...50%20Chevy/DSC00621_zps121d7269.jpg.html

http://s160.photobucket.com/user/st...50%20Chevy/DSC00622_zps85e617ad.jpg.html

The gap between the balancer and fan is 3/8". Looks like about 1 inch of fan sticks below the top of the tool..

http://s160.photobucket.com/user/st...50%20Chevy/DSC00631_zps3e56de46.jpg.html

http://s160.photobucket.com/user/st...50%20Chevy/DSC00632_zps05fd0143.jpg.html

So do you think the plate will move it up sufficiently to remove this problem?

The plate moves the pump up 3".

I wonder if the alternator bracket will reach? Great so far!

I measured 2 3/8" from the block to the center of my 3/8" pulley. Hope that helps. Let me know if other measurements are needed.

Dennis

The fact that the harmonic balancer center hole is totally inaccessible (see previous post) without it should be a great excuse to do the mod. Let alone better cooling. I am thinking its a win win all the way around. Drilling and tapping always makes me nervous, but I always get over it when the time comes. Thanks! With all of the little improvements that I am making to tweak this truck, it will be as perfect as I can make it. Thanks to the people here. ALL of you.

I think I'd just get the 235 pump and press the flange down to the right length. All this adapter talk is making me nausious.

Fourteen years ago I used the store bought shortened water pump on a '56 engine in a '49 1/2 ton and as a daily driver only vehicle in central Virginia I have never (yes, never) overheated.