The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area Engine Shop Noisy lifters.

Hi guys,
I am a novice at this, just to let you know. Last fall we adjust valves cold, to cold specs. Today I let it run for 30 mins. and adjusted them to hot specs .006 & .018. SOunds the same and still have lifter noise.

This is a 57 Chevy truck 235, stock engine. Engine was rebuilt before I got it.

Any ideas?

Is it a nice rhythmic noise? If so, then everything is fine. Solid lifters are supposed to be somewhat noisey.

It's possible you've got an engine with hydraulic lifters. Setting solid lifter clearances on a hydraulic-lifter engine guarantees lots of valve noise.

Try getting the valves on a cylinder closed on the compression stroke, with the engine stopped, and apply a firm, steady pressure to the rocker arm with a pair of vise grips, trying to move the tip of the rocker away from the valve. If the clearance increases noticeably after several minutes of steady pressure, you've got hydraulics. A collapsed hydraulic lifter with the cam on the base circle will have about 1/8" of clearance between the rocker arm and the valve stem.
Jerry

Yes, it sounds pretty smooth and consistant. Engine runs fine and idles good. Just a lot of "ticking". My Dad has a 56 car and sounds a lot quieter. I know it has hydrolic lifters though.

Added an HEI and dual carbs. Thing has a lot more life! It has always sounded like this since I have had it. Everyone comments on the noise, but they are all used to SB chevys.

So Hotrod, I want to lift up on the rocker with steady pressure? How should I apply the pressure?

You want to press on the push rod side of the rocker arm. If you have hydralic lifters, the rocker will slowly go down to about 1/8" clearance on the valve stem. If you have mechanical lifters, you can push all day and should never get more then the hot or cold setting. It will take a little time to press the oil out, so press slow and steady and see what happens.
You can clamp vise grips on the rocker, or pry up on it, any thing you can do to force it slowly down. Joe

57thekid,

You can also do this drill with the engine running. Using a ball pein hammer, hold it by the hammer end and push the handle down as hard as you can on the pushrod end of the rocker.

If they are hydraulics, the engine will stumble and miss as you collapse that lifter.

Stuart

57thekid,

If it turns out that you do have a 1957 truck engine, it will have mechanical (solid) lifters and the ticking might just be normal or it might be due to wear in the rocker-arm to valve mating surfaces.

When I have rebuilt a 216/235/261 engine, I have found that there is an indentation worn into the mating-surface of the rocker arms (from pushing down on the top of the valve). If there is an indentation, your feeler-gauge settings will be loose. This surface can be easily and quickly ground smooth and polished.

This is just a thought that you might pursue if your engine has mechanical lifters and you are back to square one.

Tim

Since the subject is lifters, I NEED to adjust my 1961 Apache 6-235. The book says solids and gives instruction on adjusting them. It gives a lash of .006 for intake and .018 exhaust. The only thing is does not specifically say is if you adjust them running or not. It says run then engine and check the oil temperature then tighten the head and rocker shaft bolts before adjusting. I would think that this would mean the engine is off but in looking, even here, people seem to do it both off or running. I've done it both but it's been a while and I would rather do it off. Anyone have any thoughts or specific problems with doing it with the engine off? Thanks.

Oh gawd, not again

35 years ago, I always adjusted the mechanical-lifter valve lash on a running engine. For the past 10 years, I have adjusted valve lash with the engine not running. Of course, my limited experience is with 216/235/261 truck engines, which all came from the factory with mechanical lifters.

I find the engine-off method to be far superior: less messy, much easier to do, and less valve-train noise afterwards when driving the truck.

The last 6 cylinder Chevy I did was a Mercruiser in a boat, with hydraulic lifters. Those you do running. I also vaguely remember doing a 54 Chevy I had back in about 1963 but don't remember if it was running or not when I did it. I can remember doing a V-8 car (the F kind) of about 55 vintage with it running and it was a real mess, oil everywhere. Keep in mind that if I remembered the best way (I'm sure I knew it once) I wouldn't have asked. But somewhere between the Liberty V-12's and the 1896 McDuff one lunger, along with the Hercules', Packards and all the others I've lost a beat or two. A few years ago I had to help the Ford dealer pull and send out a front main on an A model to be re-babbited, then reinstall it. They didn't have a mechanic old enough to know how. I had my drivers license several years before the 61 was made but was out of the auto business long before they needed work. I can still drive a 3 pedal model T, a Gyro-Matic Chrysler and most everything else made from 1900 to 2000. I've owned, at one time or other, every year Chevy made from WW2 to about 1965. I haven't figured out navigation systems, traction control and a bunch of other new fangled things and don't think I ever will. What I'm saying is that I'm at the point that I forgot more then a lot of people ever knew, and it seems that things get a little more difficult each day. I'll probably adjust the valves with it hot but off then see how it sounds. Mostly was trying to see if anyone else knew a better way. Oh, and I did search the topic before I posted the question.

Thanks. You still sound younger then I am.

Bob - most folks adjust them with the engine off, if for no other reason than it saves a lot on feeler gauges

57kid - the 235 should sound like a high quality sewing machine with properly adjusted valves, you definitely don't want to try to make them as quiet as dads hydraulics

Bill

red58,
I have no idea what a sewing machine sounds like. All I can say is the engine sounds smooth and consitant with a ticking or tapping sound. Much louder than my fathers 56 with hydralics.

Bob, someone with your experience should know better than to try to adjust a hydraulic lifter engine while it's running. Isn't scraping Babbit and checking for high spots with Prussian blue fun?

Drop me an IM or an email and we can discuss the finer points of engine-off lifter adjustment off the main board. I'm tired of getting flamed by guys who were in diapers, or not yet born when I started fixing cars.
Jerry

Hotrod, Bob hasn't claimed to be adjusting hydraulic lifters, running or not, nor does anyone appear to be flaming you .... I'd think anyone here [or searching the archives in the future] would be interested in 'the finer points' of valve adjustment

Bi;;

From the MerCruiser 1986 Manual, Vol 2 Page 5A-3 (GM 4 and 6 cylinder):
Valve Adjustment - Engine Running
(paraphrased)
1. Warm up engine
2. At idle back off rocker arm nut until it begins to tap.
3. Tighten nut until tapping stops.
4. Turn 1/4 turn additional and wait 10 seconds. Repeat until 3/4 turn has been completed.
The section on GM V-8 says the same thing.
In all fairness, it also gives the engine stopped procedure. When I learned it was to do them running and except for initial setup on a rebuild I've always done them running. I think you get a better job on hydraulics that way. Unless you rev the engine or something is messed up there isn't usually an oil problem.
We sent the bearing to an outfit in Seattle (bottom half) and they redid it. Somehow the lip had broken off. Even with only half the bearing to work with they just re-poured it and made it the same size as it was when they got it. Worked fine.
I've always felt an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure as the saying goes and like to get some input whenever I try something I haven't done in a while (probably 25 years)so that's why I asked the question. It's a lot easier and cheaper to do it right the first time and I can't really afford to replace a bunch of stuff just because I didn't ask a question first. If I knew all the answers I'd be giving the advice, not asking for it.
I hope I didn't offend anyone. I'm just trying to preserve and make an occasional hay hauler/cruise-in vehicle out of what was destined for the crusher a couple of weeks ago. The valves are the last major item (lots of minor) before I start using it. I'm planning on adjusting them tomorrow. I'll let everyone know how it comes out.

The day that any person old or young "quits" learning is a sad day indeed.

Actually I think they got it from the Chilton people. The 54-63 Chilton's lists the same procedure, verbatim. Interestingly enough, the 61 Motor's says do the with it off but then calls for the use of a vacuum gauge to do it with the engine running. Several Haynes say off, some of the model specific say off. Guess it's to each his own with hydraulics. Obviously, since I have solids I will do it with the engine off.

This is what GM says about hydraulics on a 235
http://chevy.tocmp.com/shop/1955/55csm0612.html

thanks for that longbox, saves me typing it out from my 57 car manual

the sad day is when a teacher, young or old, starts "teaching" individuals out in the hall so the rest of the class can't hear

Bill

It's interesting that the 235's in the cars had hydraulic lifters. Both my 60 and 61 factory manuals say it only came with solids in the trucks.

With the cars, it was mainly in Power Glide equipped cars, most manuals still used solids.

the 55 manual says the standard trans models got solids, the powerglide models got hydraulics with a different cam [higher hp], but by 57, the car shop manual says "one six cylinder engine is provided for all passenger models and types of transmissions ..... All six cylinder engines are equipped with hydraulic valve lifters and high lift camshafts to provide better performance ...." the 57 manual has no instruction for adjusting solids

Bill

1. All 216 engines (cars & trucks) had mechanical (solid) lifters.

2. All 235/261 truck engines had mechanical (solid) lifters - all years.

3. 1954 & 1955 Passenger cars with the high-pressure 235 and manual transmission continued to use mechanical lifters; in all years, Powerglide equipped passenger cars used hydraulic lifters.

4. All 1956-1962 235 Passenger car engines used hydraulic lifters.

I do the chevy hydrolics runnin, I have the clip's for the rockers so oil don't squirt all over and have notched valve covers for the job also.But now that I've learned how to do em off I'm going to try it that way.If ya ain't learnin ya ain't doin nuthin! Tom

Did the valve adjustment today. Sounds like several sewing machines but at least you can talk over it in a normal voice. Some were out over .030 from spec. I don't think they'd ever been done before.

Out by that much?! Yikes but that does make one wonder what all the fuss is about being so accurate adjusting valves when they can be that far out for what must have been years and years and the engine didn't self-destruct.

Just playing the Devil's advocate here but things like this do point out the resilience of these engines and the oft-times huge differences between theory and practice.