The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area Engine Shop I'm at wits end!!!

I installed a 292 in my 87 Chevy truck. It ran and has about 25 miles on it. It used to be a V8 TBI set up but I removed it and it did run. It will NOT start no matter what I try. It gets plenty of gas. There is no spark or its a very weak one unless I mess around with the points with a screwdriver, then it will spark alot but not by just opening and closing the points. It seems that the main distributor shaft gets magnetized. Maybe that has nothing to do with it. I have tried 4 coils including a new MSD one, new MSD wires which ran on the other engine, 4 condensers, two caps and 2 rotors and STILL no spark! I added an extra ground wire from the chassis to the engine which had one from the battery so the starter would crank. No problem there. I even hooked the coils directly to the battery and STILL no spark. I have a new balast resistor also. It meters fine though I did by pass it and still no start. I checked the wire that goes to the negative side of the coil just incase it was rubbing inside the distributor but that didn't help either. I removed the ECM just incase as there was a short in the wire to it. But it ran without it anyway. I have been at this over 40 years and this one has stumped me. Its my personal truck. I have spent a bunch of money on it as still it won't start. I do get 12 volts on the + side of the coil and about the same on the - side of it when the key is on. With everything new it should be running!!!!! Any ideas????? I can't think what would be grounding out the spark or why its so weak unless I tap the points where they close then they spark like crazy. But just opening and closing them with a screwdriver does nothing. Of course I properly gapped them. Sometimes it will get a one time spark then nothing. I don't have the $$$ for HEI yet though it probably would not work either. I used the MSD system and it won't fire up either. NOTHING!!!! Please help if you can.

Is the starter bypass wire hot while cranking? Try hot wiring the coil to the battery to see if you have spark while cranking,
Scott

Hy Henry G, did you check for resistance between the point plate and ground, and did you check to make sure the distributor bushings were not worn excessively, hope that helps.

I'll check the resistance. The distributor is new. Its the second one as I thought the other one was defective. I'm not sure where the starter bypass wire is. Is it one that is hooked to the starter on the positive side with the big cable? I'll check it out tomorrow. Believe me this has been on going and driving me and the wife nuts. Any other ideas? I did go to the battery direct and nothing. Thats whats weird. Even hot wiring it didn't work. Thanks everyone.

try a new points and condeser set i had a bike given to me once because they gave up on new engine the points looked fine but they wernt i got a good running bike for a set of points they worked it over for months

A good suggestion but I have tried 4 new sets of points and condensers. I use vented points USA made.

Check the voltage going to the ballast resistor make sure you have 12 volts going in.the starter bypass wire should be a yellow wire hooked to one of the small terminals on the starter.The solonoid feed wire should be purple and it is the small terminal closest to the block, the bypass wire will be the other small terminal.

I do have 12 volts to the resistor and the same on the other side. I know they remove the amperage so as not to toast the points but I will check out what you suggested on the starter wires. One side of the starter solonoid is not used. The side towards the fender on the passenger side. The one closest to the block does have a wire on it. Its purple. The main wires are a faded pink. I just went out and checked as I going to retire for the night. The engine when it ran and after I fixed two vacuum leaks sounded great and idled real smooth. I had it balanced and bored .040 over with propane pistons to help out on the compression. About 9.0:1. Should I hook up a wire on the other side of the starter and where should it go to? Thanks so VERY much. Henry

Hy Henry G, you can put it to either the postive post of the coil or to the coil feed side of the ballast resistor, hope that helps.

That should have HEI anyhow. Why not get a stock or after market electronic ign. Used ones are plentiful. The 75-77 used an external coil & the later ones had the coil-in-cap.

I am going to switch the resistor to the + side and try it. I checked the wires going to the points and they are not touching the plate sooooo. I can get a used HEI for about $10 from a friend that owns a wrecking yard. They also have a spare head from a 292 that I can have for $25. I think I'll grab it for that money. A spare is a good idea. They are getting harder to find. Its in a 78-80 crewcab hooked to a turbo 400. Never seen a 292 in one of those before. Everyone I see are V8s. HEI is on the way when the $$$ come in. I put in a new one but may go to the used for now just to get it running. The MSD is spendy even from Summit. $298.00! But everything else is MSD on it. So I may save my pennies and go for it. Thanks everyone! Any other ideas please feel free.

Well, I tried some other things and still nothing. There is not enough fire to light a match let alone the points or HEI. Still makes absolutely no sense. I tried putting the resistor to the + side of the coil and absolutely not even a tiny spark. Not even 12 volts at the coil then so I changed it back and I get a weak spark and not a darn thing more. remember it has a NEW MSD coil but tried three others as well. I checked the ground to the distributor and its right on the money. No resistance soooo now what? Only two wires go to the starter instead of three. The strange thing is it did run! Then wouldn't restart and still won't. Even going straight to the battery! The spark disappears. Also has a new battery. It turns over and thats all it does. Darn that !@#$%^&*()

Hy Henry G, did you measure the voltage at the coil when you had the week spark? Did you disconnect all the original wiring at the coil when you hot wired it? Did you check the plate in the distributor that the points mount to to make sure it is grounded? have you done a continuity check across the points when they are closed? Hope that helps.

I will do your suggestion later today. I have a service call to do first then its back to the truck. I did check the ground and got zero ohms from the ground of the battery to the distributor. I get 12 volts on the + side of the coil and the same on the other side, actually slightly less. The same at the resistor. Both sides are the same voltage coming from the - side of the coil then going to the points. The strange thing is that when I hooked up the + side to the resistor then to the coil I got nothing to the dist at all. Not even a weak spark. At least the other way I get a weak spark. I even switched back the condenser again and no results. The original wiring had been eliminated as it was a TBI set up before. BUT it did run! I drove it about 25 miles and thats it. Just won't fire up again. I will do a continuity test when I get back. Whats so odd is that I have been turning wrenches over 40 years and I'm also and electronic tech, self employed, as well for the last 11 years. I should be able to figure it out but alas..... I will do the test later today and post the results. Thanks 3B and Wrenchbender and others very much. Henry

Hy Henry G, it seems like you have eliminated a lot of things, thats why I think it has something to do with the distributor itself, rather than the wiring to it. We should realize that modern test equipment will read milliamps of current, but that doesn't mean that the cicuit is actually capable of flowing an amp or more. The point plate in the distributor has to move, so it can advance and retard the timing, if my memory is correct there should be a tiny wire attaching it to the distributor body. My other thought was the condition of the wire from the coil to the points, just some more stuff to verify, hope some of it helps.

If you have 12 volts at the negative side of the coil when the points are closed, there is no connection between the coil and ground. 3B is correct about a ground wire between the breaker plate and the distributor case, although originally the distributor relied on the vacuum advance linkage for the breaker plate ground. That was unreliable as the engine accumulated mileage. If the wire is missing or broken, the breaker plate probably isn't being grounded in your situation. Measure voltage between the points/breaker plate and the distributor case- key on, points closed. 12 volts indicates an open circuit between the breaker plate and the distributor case. I would suggest changing the ground wire even if it looks good, because they tend to loosen in the crimp at one of the ring lugs. You can also solder the lug and wire if you want to do so, but don't replace the wire with normal stranded wire- that is not flexible enough to withstand the breaker plate movement, and it will likely break before long.

You should be able to find the proper ground wire for your distributor, but if necessary, Ford distributors use the same type of ground wire, for the same reason of ensuring a good ground for the points.

Harvester

i say with 9-1 comp your coil and points system wont fire the cylinder. i tell ya like the others have hei baby i just put one in my 46 its awesome.

Make sure the points are assembled correctly, I had a set that had the insulator spacer between my wire and the power side of the points and wasn't allowing power through the points set,
Scott

You have no idea how I appreciate this site! Well I get 12 Volts to the points even though I hooked a ground from the battery to the vacuum advance bracket to make sure it was grounded, should have done the breaker plate. I have it hooked to a new MSD coil as present. I tried a Volvo coil I had which I know is good then an Echlin, then a Blue Streak coil then the MSD. I wouldn't be surprised that the little ground wire is broken even though the distributor is new. The other one ran then quit. Probably for the same reason. When you hook straight to the battery and still nothing but a weak spark that makes no sense. The other wires are new as I put them on myself. The + side has a heavy 14ga wire that is hot when the ignition switch is turned on. More wire than I need but at least it hot when turned on. I have tried four different sets of points so it can't be them and the same number of condensers too. You know, I do remember that tiny flat braided wire to the points plate. Maybe I can solder one that is flexable to it as mentioned. I need this truck to go over the Mt. passes this week being a 4X4 and almost new BFG All Terrains on it vs my full size van with near bald rear tires. Thars snow on them passes. Thanks again! OH BTW!!!!!.... That little braided wire is missing! Ah haaaa! Sooooo guess what I'm going to do in the am! A friend says he may have one. YEAH!!!! I'll post the results.

Henry,

Connecting a jumper wire from the battery ground to the vacuum advance bracket as you described won't help your situation. The poor connection is usually between the moveable breaker plate and the lower fixed plate. Connect a jumper to the fixed side of the points and battery ground- see if that gives you a proper spark, and no more than a couple tenths of a volt between the coil negative and ground.

Harvester

Without going through all the posts and reading everyone else's suggestions, I would suggest a $75 Pertronix conversion for the distributor. If your points are bad or misadjusted, that would be a possibility, but with the electronic ignition conversion so easy, why wouldn't you want that?

My wife came up with a good one. When I did that, she asked me what would we do if there was a nuclear attack? The truck wouldn't run. I looked at her with a blank stare and said if there was a nuclear attack, we wouldn't be around to worry about if the truck runs or not!!!

just a few of the old basics bad coil weak fire bad points no fire

Well Thar Harvester and fellow bolters, You were right! I added a ground wire to the plate and then to the distributor body, inside, and tweaked the timing a bit and it runs!!!! Sounds great too! Love that inline purrr. Never had this problem before but now I am wise as to it thanks to the Stovebolters. A say a BIG THANKS to all who contributed. Have to rebuild the single bbl carb tomorrow as it has an internal leak and the float is not working properly but at least I can drive it. The next thing is headers then a modest 4 bbl carb. Couldn't find a 400 cfm carter from an old 283 so I am not sure which would be the best. I figure nothing larger than a 500 cfm. The question is Edelbrock or Holley. Which give the best mpgs and power. Mpgs are more important to me than raw power. The engine came from S&S Machine in Spokan Wa. Has a 70k mileage warranty. They did a great job on it. Anyhow thanks again and again everyone! Henry ps, now a fellow stovebolter. Will hook up the ac later.

Hy Henry G, I'm glad we helped you figure it out, now enjoy.

Well Hot Rod Dad, I just ordered the Pertronix set up from Summit Racing. Should be here by Monday and then I'll install it. About $87. Not bad compared to a couple hundred for a good performance distributor. I may recurve mine later. Anyhow I thank you for the suggestion. BTW, I went for a ride last night and my wife got stuck downtown Medford Oregon because the point moved up the shaft and closed on me. This will eliminate it once a for all. Thanks again! Henry

Hey Stovebolters and especially HotRodDad. I just installed the Pertronix Ignitor and I can't believe the difference in the way my new 292 runs. Even though everything is new including the distributor with new points and MSD it still ran crappy and thirsty. I installed it this afternoon and what a difference. Of course you have to retime it but it idles much better in gear than before. When I put it in Park (700R4), it would race to a high idle and went rather low and not smooth when in Drive. Now its smooth no matter in gear or not and does not race up like it did. It only has just over 100 miles on it so it very tight right now. It even has some off the line power which before was well......lacking. With OD it should do well for what it is. I can't thank you folks at Stovebolt enough for all your help. I contribute here when I have the time but also need help from time to time. Now the next question is.....which should I get first? Headers or a small 4bbl carb. I already have an Offy manifold. Probably get an Edelbrock 500 cfm. Being the head was ported and polished that will work enough for me. Which would you go for first? I already have a 3" Magnalfow Stainless muffler and system. Have a great week! Henry

I'd go with the headers. You may have to richen the carb slightly, because of the better breathing with the headers. Then when you install the 4bbl, done deal. I'm finishing the dual exhaust on my 292 now, may have more to say later.

Larry

Hey Lgriffin, What about split exhaust manifolds? There is a place called Kansas Kustoms that splits you manifold and installs a second outlet. Would it work like headers? There is supposed to be someone here that does it. Would be cheaper than regular ones. Just a question as I will do probably the headers first as you mentioned. I will have the $$ this week to do it. I called the people at Kansas and he passed it on to someone else as it grew much bigger than he expected though he did it for years. Otherwise I'll have to hook up the water plate which I do have but would be easier to have the stock heat riser to bolt to. Thanks again for the reply. Henry

Kansas Kustoms has a good reputation for splitting manifold and the person that now does it was trained by Kansas Kustoms. That person (don't remember his name) has posted recently on Inliners, but right now Inliners web site is having some problems, so I can't get any more info for you. I have a set of long tube headers and they have been a PITA to get to seal up. I've also heard that you can only split the stock GM manifold 3-3. Considering that you can only split 3-3 and that even the best on occasion have problems with their welds on cast iron, I'd look at Langdons cast headers.

Larry

Henry, Finished the dual exhaust on my 292. I had long tube headers into stock exhaust. I now have the headers (Pacers??) into dual 2.5 pipe to a pair of Dynomax Super Turbos. Definite difference even with the 1bbl. It feels like I've gain torque over the entire rpm range, and more responsive to the throttle. I've been running the 1bbl lean on the rebuilt 292, so this week I'll step the jet up.

Larry

Henry,

Have you considered using the TBI on your 292? Since your truck was orignally equipped for it, it'll be relatively easy to swap over once you have a 4bbl intake installed. It you had the '87 up california HEI dist. its plug and play. All depends how much of the EFI you have removed.

efi-diy, I've considered it, in fact I have an TBI off an 89 Camaro with most of the harness I may have missed a sensor. Should probably start another thread. If it is plug and play (no more $$$) then I might do it now.

Larry