The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area Engine Shop Odd 235 question #1-rods

I'm using a set of recon rods for my '60 235 buildup. My question is, which way do the rod caps go on? Is the bearing insert lock on the cap supposed to go on the same side as the lock on the rod, or is is supposed to be on the opposite side?

The machinist wasn't sure, so he wanted to look at an old ('54) rod for reference. But I'm not sure if the cap position was the same from '54 to '62.

Chip :confused:

Chip, Holding the rod in your hand with the oil spurt hole on the left the piston pin clamp should be facing you. The oil spurt hole when the rod and piston are installed goes toward the camshaft side. The numbers on the rod caps should match and be on the same side as those on the rods.Also as I recall, the insert locks on the caps go on the same side as the insert locks on the rods.

Thanks Oly. Thou shalt not put the caps on backwards.

Chip, did the shop resize the rods? Like Oly says the rods and cap are numbered and go together with the numbers on the same side,and with the piston pin clamp bolt towards the camshaft . Did the shop resize the rods with the caps on wrong? What position where they in when you picked them up?
Your other question about the lifters,yes. they are the same diameter.Perhaps your old lifters are mushroomed from wear and won't fit in easily.
Is this an engine just back from the machine shop with crud in it? Are you sure the shop pulled the plugs at the end of the oil galleys and cleaned them?The lifter bores should have been cleaned at the shop, the crud your cleaning could sneak into the oil galley between the lifter bores and spoil a new engine.

I bought the rods recon from Engine Parts Warehouse in Jackson. They were already reworked. I brought them to the shop for balancing, hanging the pistons, and checking deck height. A few of the rods have been stamped a few times, and a few aren't stamped at all. So its hard to tell which way the caps go on by looking at the number stamps.

The block was an old spare-parts motor of mine. When I took it apart, it had about 3/4" of an inch of black goo stuck in its insides from non-detergent oil. It was steam-vatted twice, but its still got some baked on, caked on stuck in it.

Will engine degreaser and a pressure washer hurt the cam bearings or freeze plugs? I've been cleaning, bottle brushing and blowing this block out w/mineral spirits for 3 days now. Carbon and funk are still coming out of the block.

Chip

Chip, take that block back to them and tell them they need to clean it "correctly this time". You paid to have it cleaned and it should be "clean" inside and out. There is no excuse on their part. The rods and caps are only and always stamped on one side only. If they have done differently take them back. Sounds like a bad machine shop and poor work ethics. I had taken my head and block for a 300 six to a (new to me, but closer) machine shop and got the head back with the old freeze plug still in it and carbon still on the valves. This was to be a complete head job. Needless to say I won't be doing business with them again, I will go the extra 75 miles one way, to a good machinist that I know. The whole thing is- They figure you as an individual are only coming in once or twice and so they don't need to worry about you business- WRONG, because you have a big mouth and are going to tell the world-LOL You surely should not be cleaning the head and block and working "outside the box" with parts that aren't perfect in every way. When you get finished with this engine it should and will last the rest of your life if properly maintained. Take your wife or gilfriend with you and have them tell the machinist that they will spread the bad word about them- they know "that" will get around faster then the speed of light-LOL.

Now you've got me worried. I got the head back with what looks like valve lap compound around the valves. Can I clean this out, or bring it back to the shop to have it dismantled and steam vatted?

I think I can clean the block up with more hand tools and elbow grease.

The rods look great as far as cleanliness & machine work. Just looks like they've been in a couple of other engines before this one due to the stamps. One rod has "5" stamped onto rod and cap on one side, and "4" stamped into rod and cap on other side.

The problem is that the shops around here don't give a s*it. Most of their work is late-model engines run hot or without oil by idiots. So the shop guys get frustrated and don't do a good job cuz they don't think it matters. The same engine will come in next year with the heads melted down again.

My other choice would be to use the speed shop, but they are twice as high and inexperienced with anything but small block furd or chebbie.

Thoughts?

Chip

You have three choices. 1.Take it back and go to war with people who don't care. 2.Go to the expensive shop and be at their mercy. 3.Do it yourself, learn and be satisfied that the job is done right.

Chip, Thought???? At this time I am nearly afraid to think. Seriously, no joke!!! You, as a "novice" mechanic, should not be expected to work "outside the box" on an engine. While I must admit you are observant and alert, you are letting the machinist walk over you. When you get a block and head back from a machine shop you dang well better be able to eat off from it!!! Take that entire setup back to them and have your wife tell them she won't allow something that dirty in her house. The reason you have a machinist clean your engine is because he is supposed to be set up to " CLEAN" it. Yes you can do it yourself but you will need galley brushes and a pressure(hot) washer and cleaning solvent in a big way. He should never leave grinding compound on the head. When you got your block and head back it should have looked brand spanking new and should have been wrapped. He has plastic wrap there for that reason. Did you have them "hot tank" you block and head? Did they hone the cylinders for you? Was the cylinders mick-ed to see that they weren't out of round and within tolerances? There is a definite reason why #1 rod goes in #1 hole, etc.. They are machined to fit a certain cylinder in the engine. Else- Why have them numbered? Many will say- it doesn't have to be "that" perfect, but my work ethics are different. When you rebuild an engine it should be better then new.

Thought?? Take the block and head back and DEMAND them to do a quality job, or you want your money back and you will go elsewhere!!! Take those rods back and ask them which cylinder that #4-#5 rod goes in. Logic says it can only go into one. Don't buy it if they say- "it doesn't matter", because it does. Don't take my word for it- run a poll and see how many on here think it does or doesn't matter which rod goes into which cylinder. I will say- It will run wrong but you will pay for it being wrong.

yeah what Oly says. I will never trust a machinist until I check my Mics against his at the same temp. I tell him what I want and if it doesn't come out right we have a conversation. I'm lucky that I have one that does what I say even if he doesn't agree sometimes. If you paid to have it cleaned, you shouldd be able to eat off'n it and as far as valve compound on the head you have a "American sue everyone thing". Take it back and have them do it until you are satisfied, document all of it and it will eventually be OK if they are real machinists instead of just parts changers.
Just my rant
Dennis

Chip, When I got my engine back from the machine shop, he had it shrink wrapped for me.. He did not want any dust getting into it on the ride home in the back of my pickup. He had me treating that block like it was being prepared for surgery, lol..When I unwrapped it, it looked nicer than a brand new block..

You have to stop and make up your mind how many times you want to do this job. If you proceed the way you are going now, I have a feeling that you are going to be tearing this thing down again. Kanter Auto Parts uses a phrase in their catalog that applies here. " Do It Once and Do It Right ! "

chiphead, taking the engine back to the shop that don't care, or don't know, till you think they have it right ends up costing you in time and money. Paying the pros more up front to do it right the first time might look expensive. But, as I learned when I was trucking, the job I did "once" was always the least expensive way to go. Keep after it till it's right. MIke

Thanks for the 'sortof' kind words, Oly. :p

The block was run through a rotary steam chamber. The block was bored .060", honed, brngs and freeze plugs installed. Then he test-fit the crank and #1 and 6 rods to check deck height. He says the motor didn't need decking cuz the slugs were .005" down in the holes. I got him to tap the #1 main for the timing cover, tap the crank snout, install the new crank gear and pilot bushing, balance the pistons & rods etc.

He also checked the head, lapped the valves and installed new valve stem seals.

But he didn't clean the block and head well enough. I looked in the water jackets this weekend and found a bunch of scale and rust in the jacket, especially around #5 and 6. So I filled the water jacket with Castrol SuperClean and let it soak for an hour. Then I used the neighbor's pressure washer to blast the snot out of the block. 12 tons of rust and fonk came out of the water jacket. Turned my yard reddish-black. There is some rust and scale left, but it looks MUCH better than it was.

I also ran rifle brushes through all passages and cleaned the block with paint thinner, engine degreaser, Acetone, SuperClean, Gasoline followed up by the pressure washer. I used everything but Eye of Newt.

Then I sandpapered the lifter bores and the cylinder walls to knock out the surface rust that formed while I was cleaning it. I really don't know that bringing it back to him would have cleaned it that well.

Question- Can water jacket rust be severe enough to cause thin cylinder walls? The block was magged, but not sonic-checked. Would the presence of block-sealer be easy to notice?

As far as the rods, I paid 25 bucks a piece for them, from a totally different engine parts company. They look like they have been rewelded and remachined, then media-blasted. Should rod position matter if these rods aren't even out of my engine? My old rods were shots-ville.

What else can I do? I have been polite, but firm and told the machinist exactly how I wanted it done.
I don't know if a steam vat will clean this kind of funk off. I know it sticks to me rather well.

I don't know if they actually balanced the bottom end, as I can't find any machining marks on the rods or pistons.

I don't know if the block deck was actually measured. But I can tell the crank and 2 pistons have been test-fitted by the oil and slight scuffing on the mains and two rod bearings. I can check this one on assembly, as I have a magnetic base and dial indicator. We'll see about the .005" myself.

Chip

Well, its official. I got screwed. I looked at the crank, pistons, and head. I got screwed. Anybody wanna buy a '54 Bel-Air for 50 bucks and a big rock of crack? Cuz obviously I'm on drugs for thinking that anybody does anything right anymore.

I got so mad last night I bent a steel jackhandle around the engine stand.

chip :mad:

Chip, Check your email. It isn't that bad- We shall overcome!!

try my new email

[email protected]

The email I registered with doesn't work anymore. (like everything else in my garage :mad: ) Think Baldeagle could update my registration so the above email works with the BB?

Have I lost my mind? Do I have to tell a machine shop to vat my head before working on it? Do I have to tell him when to eat lunch?

I'm glad you guys couldn't see me last night. I found a gouge on my crank from improper crank gear removal. I went absolutely bonkers. I was screaming, kicking stuff, throwing stuff, I curb-stomped a milk crate into a coma and hit the engine stand so hard my jackhandle bent.

:o :mad: :confused:

Tell them (calmly) that they hed better correct their wrong-doings or you will talk to the State Better Business Bureau.
If they do it to one person, they are doing it to others :mad: :mad: :mad:

Geez, somebody give this poor man a good 235. I'd sell you a decent one, cheap, chip, if you can get it shipped from orygun.

Go one step more and call the county or state consumer fraud office. Here they're a division of the county district attorney, and love going after mechanics.

Déjà vu!
The same thing happened to me on my Triumph TR6 rebuild: my familly owns a small auto parts chain and I thought I'd be safe going with our main supplier-rebuilder... The fact is, most of these shops are geared towards fast turnaround of heads and engines for the 'mainstream' market, NOT the avid gearhead who lovingly restores automobile 'artefacts'! The average Joe needs his **** Taurus on the street fast so he can get to work, a quick rebuild and he's on his way.
I buy just about any auto publicaton on the market and love reading the articles about engine rebuilds (Hot Rod Magazine, Custom Rodder, etc...). The different steps are highlited and explained, it all makes sense... Then you send your engine away... And it comes back... You have seen NOTHING of the process, cant thoroughly verify that everything has been done to YOUR specs: decked, aligned bored, baked, balanced, blueprinted...
It's all based on trust... And the auto repair industry has a VERY bad record in that field...
whizzerick

Always visit the shop that is to do your machine work beforehand and look at the conditions of work in process. Ask what thier processes are for cleanin and rework of the parts.What they are doing on the work at hand is what they will do on your equipment.

Most rebuilders now burn the deposits from engine blocks and heads in a special process oven. They are then pressure washed and are spotless when complete. The old "vat" system will not always remove built up grime, scale and sludge. Talk to the shop about it and get them to clean your parts properly. Don't rant and rave, just discuss the shortcomings and determine between you how they can fix the problem.

The keying slots for the rod bearing inserts must be on the same side. If they are not, the rods are not useable. The markings mean nothing once the rods have been resized. Turning the cap around is asking for a burnt rod bearing, due to misalignment of the big end. Probably only a few thousandths, but the rod clearance is normally around 0.0009 to 0.0015 so a few thousandths will ruin the whole job.

You can check the balancing operation yourself. Weigh each rod/piston assembly and if balanced properly they will be within a gram or two of the same weight. Then each big end can be weighed by holding the piston in a fixed horizontal position and weighing the big end weight on an accurate acale. Anything over a gram or two is too much. To properly balance the assembly, each piston should be made to weigh the same before installing on the rod. The rod ends (All big end weights and all Small end weights) should be the same as well as the overall rod weight. Piston weight is removed from the bosses under the wrist pin and rods are balanced in weight from the pad on both ends.

Don't get discouraged, just keep at it and make sure your work is done right. Then when you assemble the engine, it will stay together. It doesn't take a genius to build and engine, just exacting attention to detail.

Good Luck

Chiphead, I noticed you said the shop lapped the valves. With them leaving lapping compound on the valves, you know what kind of job that amounted to. Did they grind the valves and seats, or just lap them? If they weren't ground with a stone, don't waste your time using the head as is. Take it to a real machine shop and have the valves and seats ground. Then they will lap them, to make sure the seats are the right width and location, and will definitely wipe the lapping compound off.

Chip, bummer man, sounds like you have been around the block too many times with your block.

My experience has been great with a small very messy shop in Portland. However, it is a two man shop that does mostly japanese engine builds for the low rider street racing crowd. But they do good work and are meticulous with records and keeping the engine clean. They even had a radial airplane engine they were going through the last time I was in there. Not sure if the messy rule always applies to it being a lousy shop.

Ken,You are correct on the messy shop in some instances.Sometimes they are just really busy and under-manned for the operation.Sometimes they can help a person save a buck or two when they have a low overhead
Chip, hang in there and focus on all the positive aspects of your situation,you will make it through with a little help from your friends