The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area Engine Shop inline 6 "beating" a v8?

Is this really the case? I think Jack Clifford pioneered the "6=8" logo, but are the comparisons really apples and apples? Or apples and oranges?

We all know that a Chevy inline 6, especially the 292, can be built to best a v8 vehicle in a drag race. But what if the v8 is built as extensively as the inline 6 in terms of performance mods?

The thought of an inline 6 beating a v8 never entered my mind until I came across this site (and similar ones). But once I'd heard of it being done, I was really ready see it happen. Or better yet, since I had a small inline 6 engine, make it happen myself!

But as I've grown in my knowledge of performance and engines, I believe there is a bit of intentional misrepresentation in the "6 beating an 8" idea. An inline 4 cylinder engine can be built to beat a v8. A guy at my company has a '90 Eagle Talon that turns 10.25@128 mph in the quarter. Daily street driver fully dressed with A/C. It'll spank most v8 muscle cars. But can an inline 4 cylinder beat an equivalently built v8 in the same weight/size vehicle? Probably never.

There is the question of pushrod technology vs OHC technology. Certainly the OHC engines of today are producing more power, more efficiently than the dinosaur pushrods of yesterday. The Chevy trailblazer's 4.2L I6 puts out (supposedly) 270 HP stock. That's more than several **** (and all Toyota) V8s. Acura has 260HP v6s in family sedans and sport coupes, Nissan has 245-255HP v6s in their sedans. Unreal.

But back to my original point - can a smaller inline 4, 6 or v6 outproduce or outpower a larger v8 of similar technology? I still don't think so.

Interesting post. I'm in university so I'm surrounded by the little import punks that keep saying how their nitrous'd imports will beat 5.0 mustangs and IROC's. This pisses me off, because they're comparing a brand new, modified car, to bone stock 15 yr old cars that have probably been beaten harder than a rented mule. So I just usually just say, "How does a 15 year old civic do against a brand new mustang or firebird on nitrous?" Silence. Of course nearly any engine can be built to beat nearly any other engine, but could it if the same amount of money were spent on both? In most cases, probably not. This rant is pretty much fueled by my intense hatred for imports covered in stickers and neon plug wires that pull off 17's in the quarter, but they can sure make a cool resonance with their 6" pipe....

With similar displacement and similar mods, my understanding is the inline can produce much better torque than the V8. Torque=acceleration.

But larger displacement V8s are easier to come by, and have more soup-up options. Ain't no replacement for displacement.

So unless you're talking about one of the brand new inlines GM is producing, the inliners got left behind in the 50's in terms of power. Ah well...

-Boyo

I love the sound of the six, with split manifold and dual's. to each there own, but I think that I will keep the old 235 in mine,.....enjoyed your post.

Fred

I bought an Envoy for my wife and I can tell you that thing can move! My 5.3 in my Sierra is fast but the envoy is quicker. When it idles I can just hear a faint whine like my Dad's old '61 but when I step on the loud pedal, that whine is a roar. This thing idles so smoothly it's unbelievable.

boyo here's what Clifford says:

"Several years of research and testing proved that a small displacement inline 6 cylinder, properly modified, would produce equal and, in some cases, more useable low RPM power than a large displacement V-8 engine"

You know, the more I read it the less impressed I am. How small a displacement inline 6 against how large a v8? The statement is ambiguous, but at least it markets (and sells) well.

In high school we had a guy with a 50 Chev with 261 and 3 speed. Engine mods included a cam, headers, ported head and manifolds and a severely reworked Rochester one bbl carb. With this car, he could beat a stock 327 in the 1/4.

One year ago I saw a guy with a 63 Nova. had a 250 with all the goodies. Dual Holley 4 bbl carbs, very hot cam, heavily worked head and th400. Not streetable, but he was turning mid 12's, no blowers or funny gas. He was talking going the next step and welding a sbc head for cross-flow. He knew it was a lot of money, and that he still couldn't beat a 350 with similar goodies, but he liked the novelty and nostalgia of the six.

$ for $ the small block chevy is [img]http://www.ls1tech.com/ubb/graemlins/gr_hail.gif[/img] king. One of my employees just spent just under $4k for a new HIPO 350 with med rise intake, 700+cfm carb, HEI, lumpy cam and a guarantee of 425HP with the right headers and exhaust, a nice looking motor with a serpentine setup on the front and what looks like a Mallory HEI on the back and sweet looking black fined aluminum chevy valve covers. Took 3 weeks for his motor to show up, it had 1 hour of factory break-in time with oil system flushed, dyno sheet, lifters double checked, compression tested and documented and all fastener torques double checked when it arrived in a crate ready to drop in his truck. (Did I say it was balanced too?) That same amount of horsepower out of a six with similar mods would easily cost 50% to 100% more $ to make and the motor would be much less streetable.

But that said, I know of a really sweet USED AD Panel for sale for about $21,000 . . . of course, I could get a used high mile 3/4 ton 4x4 suburban with a big block, fuel injection, heated leather seats, 4 speed auto/overdrive, towing package, CD player, AM-FM stereo, auto dimming mirrors, running boards, rear heat + A/C, extra 12V outlets for kids gameboys, cell phones, laptop chargers, etc. etc. etc. for about the same amount of money (Oh, did I say it rides like a caddilac?) . . . :rolleyes:

Some things make no sense when you look at the wrong metrics.

ftyler
Didn't you answer your own guestion with?
The emphasis here is on same weight/size vehicle.
In your second post more useable low RPM is the part of the info from Clifford that tells the story.

It really is all in what you want, and how much you want to spend. I've had four late model Z28's, and have yet to be beat off the line by an import. Past the hole-shot is where they get the go-power. The RPM range on the small rice-burners is more like a crotch-rocket motorcyle. It's hard to compete in the long haul with a SBC or a stump puller 6. Those guys have gear forever. I double dog dare you to try to down-shift TWO GEARS at 70 mph (like the honda dudes can) with a small block! But, my cup o' tea is drag racing, and most are won at the line.
As for the original question. You'll never get the performance across the board of a SBC with a six, without refinacing your mortgage a couple of times. That's not the point though. Just like the huge market for the flat-head fird v-8's, sixes with pipes and all the add-ons are cool, different and have personality. Go to any cruise-in and count the 350's with Th350 tranny's, everybody has 'em! I think it's good to do something different. But like I said, it's what YOU want.

All this late-model stuff has muddied the waters as far as whats FAST, a 4,6,or 8.

Back in the day, a hopped-up 235 6 would beat a Furd flattie. And thats what mattered. When the Horsepower Wars started in the late '50s, the I6 was pretty much a moot point by then.

chip

I see that's pretty much difficult not comparing apples and oranges in this subject. Different engines, different displacments.
Even if we get for example, a 302 V8 fird and a 300L6 also fird, although the displacment is just the very same, completely different rod/stroke ratios and strokes, makes for completely diff behaviors and not a fair comparison, the same would be true for example between a 283 Chevy V8 and a 292 L6.
Now get comletely diff engines, like the same 292 L6 and a 427 BBC. What's the point? I see no point.
Here in brazil V8 are not very popular. There were only 3 models available as options, neither of them good performers, the Y block fird 272/292, the 302 Windsor and the 318 Mopar. All them only made with 2V carbs. Not there were some lightweight cars with the 250 chevies. Almost 500 pounds between a 318 Dart and a 250 opala. How to compare 2 animals so different? No way. Some folks here opted to follow Clifford's way, but it is not real.

The point? Being told that a larger displacement v8 can be beaten by an inline 6 WITHOUT mentioning that the v8 will blow the doors off the six with equal performance mods. Countless inline 6 newbies and enthusiasts who read outdated 30+ year old racing articles; then spend big money on performance equipment with false hopes of blowing away a small block; and finally end up dumping their inline equipment on Ebay when they get blown away by a mildly built 350 or few hot Civic VTECs.

I'm finally realizing that there are some people spending money on this stuff who not only expect great performance from their inline engine, but expect to whip any small block v8 also. And I believe these expectations exist in part because of advertising statements like this:

and advertising with symbols like "6=8"

Point made.

-ftyler

Good point Ftyler about the advertising. However, if somebody knows enough about engines to build a hopped-up '50s I-6 and make it run, wouldn't they have enough experience to know that the only hopped-up V8 they could beat was also built in the mid '50s??

chip

chiphead ya'd think so. But come on. We both know better.

What about those with more money than sense, mechanically speaking? Those who just buy everything and leave the real work to the machine shop? There are probably more of those than you realize.

Chiphead I realize that you have tons of money, but you have lots of mechanical smarts too so this doesn't apply to you.

Tons of money? I do have some saved in an account for restorations/toys, but its likely due to lack o' wife than ton o' money.

You must work for those Total Information Awareness people. I'm going to go hide in my garage and put on my tinfoil Burger King crown now.

chip

"6=8" was one of the things that sparked my interest in old inlines. Its marketing. Its a snub. I picture 50's rodders hopping up their inline sixes and smoking those driving their factory v8's.

what do I know though I am a newbie inliner. I was all set to rip the motor out of my truck when I bought it and go with a v8 like every other rod. But after research and looking at the history I decided I like the inline 6 better. Its simple, clean looking, has low end grunt and sounds cool. I could have had a v8 with twice the HP for the money I have spent on my six already but I think "6 > 8" on the coolness factor.

Chip - It's been a long time since any of us have had to wear our tin-foil beanie. Dang.

41 has it right. Back in the 50's and 60's, which was before GM refined the SBC engine, it wasn't that hard or expensive to build a six. And you could beat a flatty or a 327 without much trouble. Today, things have changed. Some of us old farts don't like change and like to live in the past. That's why I have both, a stovebolt and an early 350. The bolt does the grunt work, the sbc hauls the mail.

well, I just unloaded my 1990 Mark VII that I put a positive displacement (whipple type) blower on. Problem was that in the Lincoln, you had to remove the blower to change the sparks on the driver's side! And the other side wasn't much better. So putting a 292 in my 59 Apache will be refreshing to me because I'll be able to stand in the engine compartment next to the thing to work on it!!! In the end, I got tired of working on the thing, and with all that stuff on the engine, it was hard to fix if one little component in the ignition or induction system went wrong.

Now that lincoln was fast (beat M3's, vettes, etc), and I had it for 100K miles, but it was a case of been there did that.

So in my case, simplicity and ease of maintenance ended up to be important factors. However, I do drive a LS400 with 32v dohc V8 everyday! HA! Go figure.

Ya know, this thread brings back to the front of my mind somptin' that i have been pondering for a bit now.....
do i want to take my 235 outta my '55, put in the MII, and drop in a 327 i have that is just screaming to be used, or rebuild the 235, put a few goodies on/in it (dual in and out, cam, different heads?)and keep the front end?? :confused:
it just seems that everyone and their brother is puting a sbc in their trucks. I really dig on the 'old' look, if not for the simplicity, for the 'just to be different' factor.
a hellish speed isn't important to me (got me into too much trouble ) i just want something that looks good and sounds good and that I did without maxing out 3 credit cards, and can still put people in their place when they need it....

AAhhhh....
winter dreaming....

Bishop . . . keep the 235 and the straight axle - redo the spring bushings and king pins and brakes and tune-up the 235 and enjoy it the way it was intended to be driven - slow with plenty of time to wave at folks who are smiling atcha.

Don't give up on the 6 cyl. Its not a race motor and only a few of the were. The V8 will out power you anytime with just a few modifications. But with a few modifications to the 6, you will out "coolness" them everytime!! I went to the Goodguys Show back in October at the Kansas Speedway. Out of the 3000 cars entered, they might of been 12 6 cyl powered cars or trucks. Mine was one of them, and proud of it! Coolest of all was a Hudson Hornet 6 with a holley four barrel, headers, 12 to 1 compression and race fuel. Man did it sound good... Joe

Life is already moving too fast to rush things any faster
It may be fun as we are going fast, but in retrospect, one may wonder " did I miss any old stovebolts lurking behind barns,sheds or garages (OR in the weeds/overgrowth for that matter)" :confused:

thanks guys, the six and the straight axle is the way i have been leaning for a while now

here after the Holidaze i will have to start the number crunching to see what gets done first... i do really enjoy the slow drives through town. presently, nothing beats an excuse to take out the '51 for a short trip just to keep it all limbered up. (honey i need a gallon of milk... or my favorite.. weekly jazz in the park ) but the '55 will have to be a bit more highway friendly. even the occasional (maintained) forest service road to go flyfishing will be traveled. Why have 'em if you don't use 'em?

OK, it took me a bit to dig it up, but here for the earlier posts in this thread..... (all in good humor of course) a very entertaining link..
anti-rice

very funny stuff just dig through some of the galleries....