The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area The Electrical Bay Pertronix Igniter II, III

I have read several threads about Pertronix ignition systems, and I understand there is a lot of scar tissue.

I have no interest in the pertronix distributors or modifying a later chevy distributor. There are several good threads on those topics.

my question has to do with the Ignitor II or Ignitor III modules to adapt a points distributor to electeonic.

It is my understanding that the Ignitor II and III have addressed the problem with leaving your key on which caused issues with the original Ignitor.

So I am looking for feedback on these two systems. Who has run them, and what are the experiences. Primarily within the last few years. Say back to 2020.

thank you

1956 3100 with 261 engine

It's simpler, less expensive, and much more reliable to adapt an original stovebolt distributor housing to run General Motors HEI pickup coil and reluctor components. The trigger module is mounted remotely on an aluminum heat sink, and the system uses any type of high energy coil. The MOPAR high voltage coil resembles the original stovebolt coil very closely.
Jerry

Thank you jerry.
For now im interested in the Ignitor II and Ignitor III.

If I ultimatly decide to replace the entire distributor I will most likely do the mod from this post.

https://www.stovebolt.com/ubbthread...for-stovebolt-lt-100-see-how#Post1543257

Of course I dont realy see an issue with points, So for now this is just research.

basicly has pertronix corrected the issues they had with their older systems.

I like to build "sleepers"- - - -engines that look original on the outside, and have a wheelbarrow full of newer (and usually less expensive) internal parts. For instance, a 250+ cubic inch "216" with lightweight aluminum pistons, full pressure connecting rod bearings, electronic ignition, and a camshaft for a 261 engine. The engine looks completely original from the outside. I'm a little crippled up from a motorcycle wreck 12 years ago, but I think I could outrun anybody who tries to GIVE me a Pertronix system!
Jerry

The company claims they have solved the problems and hopefully they have.

Scar tissue? About as much as Frankenstein’s monster. You do realize folks who bought these are carrying points distributors under their seats so they can drive home when they fail.

You can spend much less and have a vastly better product. There are a few different options. Good luck and please let us know if you have questions.

Jon G

Aside from a complete swap of the distributor, what are the other options? I am open to sugestions to research.

Yea seems like every topic on Pertronix devolves into a heated argument.

Last year before I became active in the forums, I had bought an ignitor II, it apeared fairly simple. just replace the points and condensor with the module and bypass the resistor when connecting to the key. So far I have not done the switch.

Im just trying to find out if pertronix has fixed the issues.

As for keeping a whole points distributor under ther seat as a replacement. Why. break down side of the road, Find TDC then swap distributors. What a PITA. Or were you talking about a set of points and condensor?

I remember when I bought my first truck, a 1966 GMC with a six cylender. My Grand Dad recomended I keep a set of points and a condensor in the glove box. Never needed them but they were there If I did. Come to think of it, I dont think had a screwdriver though.

I've never owned a modern car in my life. Every car I own with the exception of the Ford pickups has breaker point ignition.

I have never had breaker points fail on any vehicle in my entire life.

Recently, however, I've had two new condensers fail in less than 1000 miles. I have remedied that problem by installing Jon G's 200,000 hr condensers on every one of my vehicles.

Thank You Otto

A couple of guys have developed methods to convert the stock GM distributor to an electronic model. Jerry knows how for one and a few years ago there was another fellow here who posted a diagram of how he had modified the distributor floor plate to accept HEI components. I saved it but can't find it now. It seemed it might be okay, however. Seems his name might have been Deve or something like that. I don't endorse him, don't know him nor his work but as I recall he had some interesting information.

I will tell you that you can have certain challenges with HEI if your distributor cap is too small (meaning the contact points are too close together). Cross firing is not normally a problem however HEI distributor caps are normally made larger to separate the contact points and minimize the tendency. Or said another way to maximize the effective transfer of higher voltage at the rotational speed necessary.

The complete swap is the easiest method and there are advantages. Tom Langdon used to convert the Chevy/GMC V6 distributor to work with the 235/261 but that requires quite a bit of machining and not all of it is easy work, either. Again, please ask Jerry about that conversion. I have one of Tom's distributors here. As I recall, something had gone wrong in it but it can be repaired using GM parts. It looks more like the inline 6 stock distributor (small cap). But honestly speaking I don't care what the distributor looks like. As long as it is dependable and makes a nice healthy spark with minimal fussiness and upkeep all will be fine. The one I use (the large one with coil in cap) does have some nice advantages. For one, it is a clone of a very well-engineered distributor. For two it comes with a new vacuum advance unit. For three, everything in it is new. If you want, you can even modify the advance curve using springs that are cheap and commonly available.

The people who bought the Pertronix stuff are actually carrying around points distributors so they can drive home after the Pertronix thing fails...and it very likely will fail. A few people here have posted tales of being stuck in the cold, the rain, far from home, etc. About a year ago I showed with proof why and how they fail and how pathetically simple the design was. Like Jerry you would have trouble giving me one of those units for free. Just nothing good I can say about that company.

Now there are other possibilities and Jerry and I have discussed one of them...coil on plug using the distributor simply as a switching device. We haven't gone to the effort of building one but it could be done and you would get one heck of a hot spark that way. Some of those systems (lacking spark plug wires) will produce around 40,000 volts.

John G and Hotrod lincoln,

Thank you both for your input. I understand you are trying to look out for your fellow bolters. From reading prior posts on pertronix I am well aware of your strong opinions regarding the pertronix brand. In fact I debated for a couple of days before posting my question.

In my first post I stated.

"I have no interest in the pertronix distributors or modifying a later chevy distributor. There are several good threads on those topics.

my question has to do with the Ignitor II or Ignitor III modules to adapt a points distributor to electeonic"

So, once again


I am looking for first hand experiences with the Ignitor II and III. Pertronix has a large line of ignition products, I am only interested in peoples experience with these two.

Anyone had experience with the Ignitor II or the Ignitor III?

I’ve had great success with Pertronix in all three of my stovebolts. The 45 GMC I just recently sold I put 12k miles on it over 11 years. That truck when I bought it already had Pertronix installed. I converted my 1959 GMC Napco, and also my 1949 GMC suburban. Both are performing well. I already have another Pertronix lined up for my Pontiac straight 8. There’s guys on here that don’t even drive stovebolts or even own one telling you what to do. I purposely set up my suburban and Napco with points and then converted to see if I could feel the difference. And I could! What’s the worse thing that can happen? Try it out and if you have a failure then go back to points. But before it “might” fail you’ll experience better starting, more performance and better fuel economy. I also feel like your truck better be in top shape wiring and ignition circuit wise. No cobbled up wire harness, patched in homemade connections ect. I also use the Pertronix coil, and plug wires. The complete package.

trkngmc,
Thank you for the feedback. I agree about the ignition circuit needing to be in good shape I definatly wouldnt expect it to fix a bad distributor.
which pertronix system did you use?

John G and Hotrod lincoln.

I read through my posts and noted that the tone was all wrong. It is not my intent to argue or question your opinions about Pertronix as a whole. My goal was to keep the topic focussed on the Ignitor line of products. If I have offended either of you, I truly apologise.

I only know the part numbers I’m running verses II or III. If I had to guess I’m running II in my 49 Subruban that’s been on the road since 2020 and probably III in my 59 GMC Napco that’s been on the road since 2022.

If mine were to fail I’ll simply replace it with another Pertronix and keep on motoring. I’m not going back to points and a condenser.

after doing my research, (user error, faulty wiring and quality control) the biggest issue I can see is parts availability. Since all things fail, being able to get a replacement at a parts store would be optimal. All things considerd I will instal the one I have. If it fails no problem, I have walked hundres of miles so whats a few moore.

Trkngmc,
When you installed the Pertonix systems, do you remember if they had the black plastic ring with the embedded magnets? I am seeing that they have a system that uses the distributor lobes to trigger the spark. Pertronix ignitor 1168LS.

I wonder if this is there fix for possible issues with the plastic ring?

I can answer that last question. Sadly there is no fix for that plastic ring. It won't fail all at once, but it is going to fail. Two reasons: One, the magnets in it are very weak. They have to be or the simple little Hall Effect sensor won't cycle as it should. Hopefully you understand that is all this thing ever was...magnets separated by slots and a Hall Effect sensor. Two, magnets lose magnetism when they're heated and these are in a hot environment. Heat causes disorganization in the magnetic domains and if the Curie temp is reached the magnet may be toast forever. Depends entirely on what the magnet is made of. This was all discussed around here some time ago. Please let me know if you need digital images. I think I may have kept them. Good luck.

the Curie temperatures of iron, cobalt an nickel are, respectively: 1480, 2060, 669 degrees Fahrenheit. If your distributor sees that kind of temperature while under the hood of a Stovebolt, there are other issues in play which have already likely caused the vehicle to stop running.

Install the Pertronix, keep the points in your glovebox just in case. The last one I installed, on a 1960 Buick Invicta, used the distributor lobes as its reference. That was in 2004, it still works.

thank You John G
I see the issue with the magnets and there potential for failure, either from heat, to large of an air gap or just plain poor quality control. The more I learn the more I want to know.


The reason I asked about Pertronix ignitor 1168LS is that it does not use magnets in a plastic ring. whats in the photo is what you get and none of the instalation videos show a ring.

Im not sure I fully understand the Hall effect, So Im probably wrong. But it apears to me that the 1168LS uses the lobes on the disteibutor as the trigger.

I did see though that a lot of the pertronix kits use the ring, just not this one.

Here is what I wrote about the Pertronix units using the plastic magnetic wheel: https://tinyurl.com/56c65s6t I hope it is helpful. Some questions are unanswered but I think that post ought to settle things adequately. No magnetism in the upper part of the wheel? Distributor by absolute definition can not work and will not work...case closed. I wish I had saved the failed wheel so I could figure out what was used in it, but I can only dedicate so much time to this stuff.

We searched patents (hoping for some clue about the evolution of that wheel). There are active patents using the lobes as triggers and those designs are newer and different. The original patents (filed under other company names, some of which seem to have expired, some of which exist in databases in other countries) go back to the mid 1970s. It would be a daunting and some might say pointless task to wade through all of them but I do know the original design was for individual magnets to be bonded to the outer side of the wheel (which by the way was all an integral part of the unique rotor) and obviously that changed at some point. You can see the magnets in the drawing I have attached (image taken from the patent). I assumed the change to the separate wheel was so that people would not have to buy a special magnetic rotor...what I mean is there is an economic inability to distribute parts universally for a device that hasn't been produced and might never achieve much popularity, etc. I believe it is a very good chance the patents preceded the trial/error period. That's not uncommon.

Another engineer friend told me neodymium magnets will be demagnetized at a temperature just shy of 180 degrees (f). He said it is impossible to know if heat affected the magnetic wheel unless you know the type of magnetic material used in it and how much...but he thought heat could have been a problem.

The point Jerry and I have both made several times is this: GM engineers designed an excellent HEI distributor (which I've shown can be adapted to the Stovebolt engine by just about any reasonably handy person using common tools) for less than $100. It is known far and wide for reliability.

The image of the Pertronix module you sent is not the original wheel model and may work okay. I would say it has to be better.

If you want a very good introduction to electronics, you can download Forrest Mims "Getting Started in Electronics." Good luck.

Yeah Jon that model diagram you posted is older than most on this site. I’ve never even seen that version.

Sounds like you and Jerry should build up some of those converted GM distributors you talk about and sell them. You could make a killing.

I’ll keep a spare pertronix in my glove box if a failure occurs. Much easier to swap on the side of the road if I ever have a failure than trying to convert back to points and a condenser. Who would ever go back to points and condenser after experiencing the performance of Pertronix?

From your post here it sounds like you know the newer version is good. Those older versions are no longer available. I own and drive my vintage vehicles.

I have an Ignitor II on my 216. It's been on the truck a few years now. It's using the Pertronix coil and Pertronix wires. Carter YF 964S carb, AC plugs (don't recall which). Runs great, probably only a couple thousand miles a year, but I drive it hard enough to keep up with Houston area suburban and freeway traffic and Texas highways.

I have actually accidentally left the key on overnight once, a couple years ago. Was exiting the truck and I guess I put a little clockwise twist on the key as I pulled it out of the ignition cylinder from the open passenger door. Next morning I get in to go and realize the slot is not pointing to 12:00 as I put the key in... The battery was drained, but with the assistance of the jump box, it's like nothing ever happened. Still runs great.

Phillip,
First of all, please don't take anything I say personally. I can't support Pertronix...there's a philosophical disconnect about as wide as Texas between them and me.

Please understand a couple of things. One...any of these "projects" I do is not done for profit. I've said this before...hopefully people understand it. Take for example the improved (200,000 to 300,000 hour) condenser. By the time you total the cost of all parts and shipping cost, there's maybe something like a dollar profit left on each and for a couple of years I was happy to run the project at a loss because I knew for folks still using points distributors that condenser was necessary to prevent certain failure. No small bit of work and research went into it. Once breakeven point is reached, any profit goes into a "bucket" that is used to pay for future projects. None stays in my pocket. I've mentioned engine gaskets recently: I'm thinking of making those and offering them just to folks here but it requires the use of a CNC laser cutter and to make some engine gaskets I'm going to have to invest in a longer cutting table and also probably a drag knife style device and have some steel die rule cutters made. Expensive venture and very infrequent purchases from folks out there. The same exact challenge Fel-Pro, Mahle and others face. Gaskets like the side cover are simple punch cut gaskets but they're big and they gobble up a lot of gasket material that isn't exactly the same stuff that's used elsewhere. A lot of waste. Every week more of the individual gaskets are disappearing and when the vendors exhaust their current inventory, they'll be all gone. Fel-Pro has complete gasket sets still in stock and they have some individual ones like head gaskets, valve cover gaskets but most individual gaskets probably won't continue to be produced and are disappearing. I've considered buying some of the clone distributors and converting them, but I need to think about the outlay of $. Once again, infrequent purchases. I've also considered buying some GPS speedometers and converting those to "look-alike" AD speedometers (like I did for my pickup). Same problem. They aren't cheap to buy, folks don't purchase them often and you can't make one look exactly like original nor work that way (the odometer is different). And there is a good bit of work involved to make it a "drop in" product. The typical observer doesn't notice the difference at all. You can see it attached.

Two...I have no tolerance for companies who produce products they know (or should know) are going to fail. That is not good business and it isn't even fair, no matter what anyone says. The Pertronix module I took apart had maybe (if a person paid 100% retail prices for everything) $10 worth of "stuff" in it. It was sold for over $120. And it wasn't long before it failed completely. And I believe every single one of those has failed or will fail producing the same stranded results. I suspect the company realized this was a problem pretty quickly. The company should have said "we made a mistake." Every one of those should have been recalled with purchase price refunded. And those units are still being sold. You can see new unused ones on eBay, Etsy, elsewhere and the original poster with this question apparently has one that hasn't been used...yet.

John G.
I have two of your posts "saved" the one where you autopsy a pertronix unit and the one on modifying the HEI to fit a 235.
I purchased my ignitor II last year. If I had seen the post on how to do the HEI mod I would have done the mod based on cost alone. But. I already had the ignitor II, thus my trying to focus the conversation on the Ignitor II and III modles vs Pertronix as a whole.

Also the autopsy on the pertrinix unit is where I found out about the Hall effect and how its supposed to work.

The way your post explained, with photos, was good, it explained how it works and identified an issue. And from the conversation I gather it could be design, manufacturing or materials at the company end. Also you could cause an issue at the user end by instaling it on a worn distributor or getting the gap between the wheel and pickup wrong.


As for Pertronix, to me, saying Pertronix is like saying Ford or Chevrolet. A company name, with years of different modles and products. Some good and some bad. Personaly I think talking about specific modles IE Ignitor II, is more informative than talking about a company "pertronix".

How to keep the discussion civil, I dont know. I do know, Im putting more thought into the tone of my posts. Not just fire and forget.

Pertronix still uses the plastic magnetic wheel on several of their current modles.

from what Im seeing on there site the pickup (?) has a lot # stamped on it so they should be able to dertermin if they had a bad production run and do a recal. Not realy seeing anythi g stamped on the ring though.

to further compound the issue some Ignitor II's show a wheel while others do not.

Now im wondering did mine come with a wheel? Im in KC and the truck is in arkansas. Next ti.e I go down I will get pics and verify which one I have.

Great info EchoBravoSierra!

EchoBravoSierra,
Do you happen to remember if the Ignitor II you instaled had the plastic wheel or if its the type that fires off the lobe? Its good to know the one you installed had no issue from the key being left on. Leaving the key on with the original ignitor caused them to fail. The Ignitor II was supposet to have fixed that issue. Good to know it did.

I have installed about a dozen different original and Pertronix II units over the years and have only had failures on 3 of the Pertronix II units. Never the original ones. When they fail it is very frustrating because of the intermittent problems which then becomes very dificcult to diagnose. On those Pertronix II units that have failed I switched back to points and am glad that I did. No more frustrations.

Great info Davey! I love hearing real world experiences and not just opinions.

For everyone who commented,
Thank you I have learned a lot and realize there is a lot more to learn.
I now wonder if switching to electronic ignition would be that significant of an improvement to a stock 216, 235, 261?

Time for me to look at past threads on that particular topic.

If a stock point type distributor is completely overhauled- - - - -getting the shaft running true in bushings, making sure the cam lobes are exactly the same height and spacing, and getting the centrifugal and vacuum advance systems working correctly, about the only advantage to electronic ignition is the ability of the coil to generate very high secondary voltage. That is because points are limited to around 5 amps of current flow without burning, and solid state electronics can handle at least double that current. Points also have to be serviced more often. As long as the spark plugs are kept clean and properly gapped, the coil cannot generate more voltage than is required to jump the plug gap. A clean plug with a squared-off surface of the center electrode will jump the gap at around 8-10 KV. Even if the coil is capable of 50KV on open circuit, it will never make more voltage than the plugs need to fire.

Electronic ignition is useful- - - - -if the car owner is too lazy to do routine maintenance. It was developed in the 1970s when Big Brother decreed that emission-related systems had to run at least 50K mikes without being serviced.
Jerry

Jerry,
Correct me if Im wrong. based on what you said to get full benifit from an electronic ignition, you would also have to increase the gap on the plugs? Also what is KV?

Proper maintenance should be a habbit. greas what needs greased check wear points for wear and inspect consumables. Dosent take long and alows you to Identify failing parts, so you can order parts and plan down time.

KV is KiloVolts 1 KV = 1000 volts

Yes, the plug gap controls the firing voltage, along with a few other factors. Normal plug gap for a point type ignition system is around .035". Electronic ignition systems usually have plug gaps anywhere from .045" to as much as .080" in some cases. Engines that run extremely lean mixtures due to emissions requirements have to run very wide plug gaps in the hope that there might be a few molecules of combustible mixture in the gap when the plug fires. Some Cadillac engines that ran .080" gaps in the early 1980s would miss badly with a narrower plug gap! When GM first introduced HEI in the mid-1970s, they had a tester that plugged into a spark plug boot that required at least 25 KV to fire a spark across the gap. It resembled a spark plug with a recessed center electrode and an alligator clip to attach it to a ground.

www.ebay.com/itm/312305618789?

Jerry

Bill, Jerry
Thanks for confirming my assumption and explaining what KV was.

I don't remember a wheel, so think it senses the lobe. I can go look later.

EchoBravoSiera
Thank you for taking the time to look.