The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area The HiPo Shop 250 and auto trans good idea?

OK have a 51 3600 still in the planing stage as far as engine and trans
Originally I was thinking useing the 250 six out of a 74 1/2 pickup rolling frame I picked up for donor parts
So 250 with the trans off the 216 that the 51 came with.

But traffic around here has become so congested if I’m honest I will use it more with an automatic.
Problem is I know nothing about automatic transmissions and what will fit what block

So what would I be looking for automatic trans wise?
I don’t have a torque tube to worry about
Not going to be a high HP situation
Usage will be as a light pickup needs to be able to do about 70 -75 with out screaming
Small block V8 isn’t totally out of the question.
But I think the six is an easier for me with the straight front axle .
Junk yards around here don’t have much really old stuff and what they have they want real money for it
Preference would be something I could get from a rebuilder.

Fenders and inner fenders are done and painted, cab isn’t done yet so firewall and or floor mods not a big deal

About as high tech as I want to go is I will probably go with a throttle body fuel injection kit

The 250 is not a bolt-in swap.

The Holly Sniper will work fine on your 216 but you won't see an real performance gain according to those who have installed it.

I drive my 216 3spd in rush hour, freeway traffic every week in Atlanta. I just stay in the right lane and putter along. Shifting gears when required doesn't bother me. 55-65 on the open freeway (still in the right lane).

Are you planning on keeping the 3/4 ton axles and 8 lug wheels, or going to something more modern? The most common rear axle ratio in a 3600 is a 4.56:1 ratio, which will have any engine screaming at highway speed- - - -six or V8. A 700R4 or 4L60 automatic trans with overdrive will bolt onto the back of the 250 engine and help out on the cruise RPM, but the throttle pressure linkage on the 700R4 will be problematic, and the 4L60 will need an electronic shift controller ($$$$$). You'll have to fabricate everything- - - -engine and transmission mounts, fuel lines, radiator, throttle linkage, etc. The old bank account will need some CPR before the project is completed- - - -if it ever gets done.
Jerry

Hotrod
Not sticking with the original dif has a 3.83 8 bolt pattern
So no not going to be dealing with 4.56:1 problem so no don’t need to use an OD trans.
Depends what you call expensive small number of thousands or tens of thousands

99% sure I’m using the 250 and it will get fuel injected, so it’s just what trans to use,
I don’t have any fuel, brake or electrical system now so have to build them any way
But that is a valid concern.
The hard part for me mounting the engine wise is figuring out how I want it to sit in the frame
Making the mounts is probably a 2 day job.
Also have to figure out how to get AC , have to get new drive line,
There are some merits to sticking with the short shaft out of the trans and carrier bearing set up.

Going for reliability and drive ability done right it will be the last pickup I will own

Otto
the one thing I know I’m not doing is using the 216, if I was to use a drop in engine it would be a 261
You fuel injected because it runs better and burns less fuel, and you don’t have to mess with chokes,
old gas in the carb because You didn’t drive it for 6 months.
I already have a car like that my MGB, and it’s fun to drive on the right roads but I don’t drive if much.

The first thing I learned to drive was a 58 Chevy pickup with a 235 and 3 on the tree
Not something I can see me using into my 70s and 80s.

Fuel injection on an old engine is like putting lipstick on a pig.
Jerry

Did the 250 make it to getting injected?
I know on the S10 the 2.8 got it by 89, had one with the 5 speed manual.
Best pickup I ever owned for my needs.

As far as transmission is it if it will fit say a 327 it will fit the 250 ?
Is the sift control unit for the 4L60 a stand alone unit?
Do I need a different flywheel for the auto transmission? I think I do

With a quick search looks like a 4L60 and controller would be at the upper end of my budget
The manual shift option might be a way to go

Not in the USA. Brazilian Chevy 250s had multiport FI up into the 2000s.

The bellhousing bolt pattern on the 250 is the same as a Chevy V8, so any transmission or bell housing that will fit a Chevy V8 will also bolt onto a 194, 230, 250, or 292 inline six. Also the Mercruiser 4 cylinder.
Jerry

Well that’s enough to get started with

Are you referring to a worn out motor or older generation motors?

I'm referring to engines that were not designed with fuel injection as the intended fuel source. There's a lot more to it than simply spraying a mist of gas somewhere in the general vicinity of the cylinders. Properly designed F.I. is sequential with the firing order, each injector is aimed at the back side of the intake valve and sprays just before it opens, and there's enough of a closed feedback loop to adjust the fuel/air mixture several times a second. None of the P.T. Barnum pocket pickers who sell aftermarket injection systems can come even close to the performance of a well-designed factory F.I. system.
Jerry

Would you consider a 283 or even a flathead not designed for fuel injection?

The only way I would attempt a project like that would be with a custom designed intake manifold with individual injectors for each cylinder, and a factory type computer system programmed to the engine displacement and firing order by someone like my brother. He has been doing computer modeling of new electronic parts for the major auto manufacturers for 20-something years, on a contract consultant basis. He designs parts on a computer, runs them to failure with a proprietary program he designed, without ever building a prototype, and predicts failure rates. At one time he was billing out his work at the rate of a thousand dollars a day, and customers were on a waiting list for his services. He has probably raised his rate since then.
Jerry

So I guess the chevrolet tbi was a failure.
I've had enough of this discussion.

I was teaching auto mechanics in a Tennessee state trade school, and attending instructors' seminars every summer at the GM training center in Memphis when TBI was introduced in the early 1980s. Even then, the GM field engineers said TBI was a temporary fix to comply with EPA regulations, while they developed a more sophisticated sequential port injection system. The first GM SEFI port injection system was introduced on the Buick 3.0L V6,I believe in 1983 or 84. I guess they were lying to us?
Jerry

Non electronic fuel injection came as an option by chevrolet in 1957. In 1958 corvettes came with fi on 283s

Stuart Hilborn started using fuel injection in 1948 on flatheads... pretty innovative for the time

Over here on the west coast, the pump gas is like 150 proof flatulence gas. It loves to eat fuel lines, carburetors, anything with rubber. Float bowls end up filled with goo. Alot of hotrod guys are either going to ls swap or aftermarket efi. No getting around it.
I'm hoping the holley sniper 2 proves to be a reliable fix.

So far a 4.5 out of 5.

BTW sorry for hi jacking this post

I was learning the automotive trade at my father's shop in Nashville when the Rochester mechanical fuel injection was introduced in 1957. When it was discontinued in 1962, I was a "know it all" high school student at the GM training center during summer break. I made the mistake of criticizing one of those Rochester field engineers about GM dropping the FI system. He schooled me- - - - -

#1- - - - -"The only time the fuel injected engine makes more horsepower than the 2-4 barrel Corvette 283 engine is at wide open throttle- - - -and then only by 5 HP."

#2- - - - -"It costs GM more to produce the FI system than we can afford to charge for it- - - -we lose money on every one we produce."

#3- - - - -"If every engine being produced worldwide had the best fuel injection system we know how to produce, regardless of cost, and someone came up with carburetion in its present stage of development, it would be hailed as a major advance in fuel system technology!"

Once again- - - -straight from one of the people who designed those things! Then Volkswagen came out with the first factory installed electronic fuel injection system, on the aircooled 1600 CC flat 4 cylinder in the 1965 Squareback. Truckers loved that one- - - -the clock circuit in the computer ran on the same frequency as CB radio, and a rig with a linear amplifier could shut down the engine by keying his microphone when a VW got even with his antenna during a passing attempt. VW changed to a different frequency in 1966.
Jerry

That's 007 stuff there..

Thanks for the history....very good read !!!!!

Here's hoping for success on the holley

Absolutely right about the 250 head not being for sequential port injection.
Siamese intake port heads won’t work, you get one rich and one lean.
You don’t do TBI in search of more power, you do it for the same reason GM did it, to run cleaner.
TBI is just a better carb.

I’m a sports car guy My toy car is my MGB guys have been trying to figure out a good injection way to go,
Has the same port problem best any have done a few guys are using the holly tbi with mixed results.
How we get the most power is a supercharger, or an engine swap.
Dual SUs work nice once you learn how to tune them but the MG also has a fairly decent intake and exhaust system

Chevy really constipated these engines the head and manifolds is where you can find a little more power.
The 250 is already making about 30 to 40 more hp than the 216 and is lighter by about 100 pounds
Not sure how much of that the 4L60E will eat up
Add in the lighter rear end

If I was really after more power a 292 would be the cheapest, or a 350

The cheapest horsepower is less weight,
The old saying how fast do you want to spend

A swap to a small block Ford V8 like a 289 or a 302 is the way to wake up an MGB. It's a snug fit, and keeping the thing cool is a chore, but seeing the look on a pony car driver's face while getting smoked by a Brit sports car was - - - - -PRICELESS!
Jerry

A 350 has approx same weight as the inline 6

Pros and cons on tbi

CONS
More $ than a carb
Computer run, average joe can't diagnose any issues
Need to run elec fuel pump
Wiring harness required
Requires return line to fuel tank

PROS
Easier starts
Better throttle response
Simple to tune to engine specs
Can run crappy west coast gas
More HP per Engine Masters
Will fit most 4106 manifolds
Better fuel milage

Yes there are pros and cons to v8 over inline 6
The main con of the v8 is the exhaust and steering
And it burns more gas.
Pros are more power, shorter so more room for cooling system and such.
It just might win out over the six when paired with the 4L60e
Cheap
And it’s been done by others many times.

With a manual transmission the 250 is a no brainer for me.
Not so sure with the 4L60e,
I think the sweet spot is some where around 300ci
292 might be that.

It’s a pick your devil too fat or too long.
Fuel economy well you pick that up with the right differential ratio
Get it loafing along at about 70 mph.

One problem I thought of an elegant solution to is the shifter
Use a push button on the dash like Grandma’s old Dodge Dart used
Grandpa liked Dodge

Actually, there is a simple solution to the V8 exhaust/steering issue on an AD truck. The exhaust manifold for a 265 Chevy has a front outlet that allows a small block V8 to be mounted on center, and does not require relocating the steering gear. Since people prefer the ram's horn exhaust manifolds, those 265 exhausts are dirt cheap at swap meets. If you don't like the generator mounting bosses on the driver's side manifold, the passenger's side will fit and put the outlet ahead of the steering box.

These are WAY overpriced- - - -just included them for the visual example.

www.ebay.com/itm/266983932793?

Jerry

Do you think that would also apply to an Art Deco half ton? I was leaning toward keeping the straight axle but swapping the rear end for an open driveline. I have a '41 that is still in the planning stages.

I already have a 283 to work with but have also been considering an Atlas 4.2 six or a 3.7 five banger. A 250 was also a consideration as I do need to have an automatic transmission.

Thoughts and opinions much appreciated.

John

Just spitballing here- - - -no hands-on experience, but I believe the Art Deco frame rails are a bit narrower than the Advance Design frames. You might want to check with Achipmunk- - - -he's got a 1937 pickup with a 305 in it, but I'm not sure if he's still running the straight front axle. The Atlas would need some major oil pan modifications to clear a straight axle. It runs a cast aluminum pan with a very deep sump. It's also got an oddball bellhousing bolt pattern.
Jerry

Ferris Bueller is running a pretty stout 383, with tbi and getting 18.5 mpg. He's also running a 5 speed tremec.
I'm not familiar with inline 6 bangers so can't compare fuel milage to that

The 4l60e will require a pcm.

You did not mention budget. A long block 350, set of vortec heads, vortec specific intake, center bolt valve covers, and a tbi will set ya back about $5k.

Just a thought

I've been running a 250 in '37 truck for 25 years now, it has a T350 automatic with a 3.08 rear axle and 28" tall tires. It has plenty of power for the 3300lb truck, will run down the highway at 75 - 80 mph all day long. The faster you drive, the less fuel mileage you get, mostly due to the aerodynamics of the truck. At 65mph,it will get 21 mpg with dual Carter W-1 carburetors and the A/C running cold.

The 250 doesn't need overdrive, mine runs 2400 rpm, will do it all day, and still gets decent mileage. They don't have the torque to pull at less rpm.

I think a really good setup would be a fuel injection system with two small throttle bodys, each feeding 3 cylinders. With one center mount unit, the outer cylinder will run leaner just like the carburetor setups due. A off the shelf dual intake would be a good startig point.

The 250 has a low mount water pump, so either mount the engine high, or plan on how you are going to lower the radiator. Then plan on how much tunnel you need to clear the automatic trans bell housing. I lowered the radiator and moved it forward just to have enough room for a mechanical fan, its probably 5 to 6" lower and 3-4" forward, the 250 is a longer motor. The 250 will also cost more to rebuild then a SBC, supply and demand. With a simple piston change you can boost the comression ratio from 8 to 9:1, 307 V8 chevy piston are bolt in, but must be a true flat top.

Not sure would need fancy heads on a 350, they make plenty power bone stock for my needs
I do my own engine assembly I want to know what parts are in there.
But yes won’t be cheap i figure some where in the 10 to 15K range all in.

Joe I kind of wonder about going with something like the T350 but I have to deal with some fairly steep hills
Around here running a slightly lower ratio, so when it drops out of OD it will have the power to get up the hills.
Yes gas mileage is very much related to aerodynamic drag.
In theory the 250 should do ok they do run the 4.3 in pickups with the auto trans.
Lump the head maybe bigger valves, roller lifter with a torque cam.
I was thinking about a 6 inch dog house would probably get the needed room.

Just remember, all the modifications raise the rpm of the power curve. I've flow bench tested 250 heads several times, one stock, one modified. The modified head had bigger intake valves, narrowed head bolt bosses, and epoxy filling the floor ( same as the lump port pieces ). I was able to get better air flow from the exhaust with just cleaning up the ports, the intake flow improved due to the short turn from the port into the valve face. If I remeber right, it gained about 20% air flow at the highest valve opening. The lump's raise the floor so the air will follow the natural curve and make a decent turn into the cylinder. A stock head port floor has no curve so to speak. Removing the head bolt boss opens up the port, and yes you gain air flow, but loose velocity. The port becomes so big, at low rpm the air is hardy flowing. Race type 250 engines run in the 7000 rpm range or more,thats where the big ports really help.

My modified head was on my truck for several years, it seemed to run alright but always had a shutter or shake while climbing hills. I finally figured out the head was causing the issues after changing a lot of other parts. When working the engine at part throttle, the exhaust flowed so good that when the valve timing overlapped, the fuel mixture was pulled right through and out the exhaust creating a lean condition. It all went away with a stock head back on. The flow numbers for the intake and exhaust were equal on my modified head, when they should be around 20% less for exhaust. When I went to scrap out the head, I found 4 of the exhaust seat bad due to heat from running lean.

For sure use 307 V8 Chevy pistons, 9:1 compression will help, probalbly more then head modifications will for around town driving.

Doing race engine stuff on a street engine without a clear understanding of the physics involved and what part of the RPM range the changes come into play usually ends up being an expensive and usually disappointing situation. The dramatically shortened engine life is also very seldom taken into account. On the dirt track cars, an engine needed to be "freshened up" about mid-season, if it didn't hand grenade before that time. Back in the late 1970s we ran two or three engines in a 4 month season, at a cost of $10K to $12K each. The cost these days would be considerably higher! I learned pretty quickly that it's a lot more fun going racing when I'm spending some other guy's money!
Jerry

That’s why you ask questions before doing something
So far seems staying mostly stock on the engine is the way to go for street driving.
Other than maybe bumping the compression up and undoing the smog crap.

Thats where I ended up at with mine, its much easier to drive and with the traffic in my area, theres no need for speed !

If your bumping up compression, you might as well add a cam and decent heads. It all has to work together.

I just installed a 0.575 lift cam with a 106 lsa. Stock heads, stock intake, stock rotatating assembly. It runs like crap.....well I wonder why.

They don’t make better heads for the inline six,
And Joe pointed out the down side of messing with em

It has got me wondering if the 4.3 v6 that Chevy used in the 2012 Silverado would fit
It’s basically the v8 with 2 cylinders chopped off, if the pan doesn’t hit the axle or crossmember
You could slide it about 4 inches forward.
It makes more than enough power

A carbureted Chevy V6 with a 4 barrel like Mercruiser Marine ran might be a good option- - - -it was a hotrodded version of the engine a lot of the S-10 pickups ran, it has the V8 bellhousing bolt pattern, and they were available with a 700R4 transmission. Mercruiser ran a pretty radical cam, and that cam is still available on Ebay and elsewhere. A V6 is an oddball swap for the old Chevy trucks, but it's definitely an overlooked option, IMHO.
Jerry