The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area The Tool Chest mig welder vs. oxy acet. pro's & con's

ok guys...

I see a lot of guys purchasing the mig welders, and it got me to wondering.

how hard is it weld with oxy acet. vs. a mig welder, and is one type of weld signifigantly stronger then the other?

I don't know which is stronger between the two, but the mig welder's heat is more consentrated which lessens warpage. It takes alot more skill to weld sheetmetal with Oxy/Acet. The Oxy/Acet welding heats a larger area thus more chance of warpage.

hey, thanks for the info... as I was sitting here reading through a couple bodywork books I saw both methods, but couldn't find anything that gave any indication of why one method was better then the other.

A mig is a LOT easier to learn and makes a good, strong weld. A mig welder with enough capacity and properly equipped can weld anything from thin sheet metal to 1/2" (or more) plate. Other than making sure the metal is clean, it is also VERY quick. You can run a bead as long as you want so long as you have wire and the duty cycle of the welder will take it.

I really can't speak for oxy-acetylene welding. I have used a torch for brazing but I have never welded with steel rod. I really don't think see how a torch could weld with the penetration and strength of a MIG weld. However, I just got a torch from racecarldad and may try my hand at oxy-acetylene welding, just to see hot to do it.

I am saving my money for a MIG welder, though

yea I think I'm going to do that.

I do have a torch here so I may tinker with that a bit just to try & get by until I can get a mig welder.

I haven't used a torch in 12 years so I think its about time to dig it out, and get reaquainted with it... LOL it'll give me some practice welding at any rate.

The big advantages to a wire-feed welder are cleaner welds and less warpage. For welding sheet, you need to make a series of short welds with gaps, then go thru and connect the short welds. Keeps the metal cooler. It is far easier than oxy-acet. welding. At our museum, since we got a wire feed, the only things we use the torch for now is cutting, heating and silver-soldering. And if the job is too big for the wire feed, we use the stick welder. We haven't done any gas welding in several years.

Solo,

The biggest challenge I found to Oxy-Acet. welding is that of dexterity. One hand is stupid, the other knows too much. Actually, practice makes perfect, but Mig really is the way to go for the beginner or casual do it yourselfer, IMHO.

Here are some personal favorites websites - some welders are brand loyal, others find a machine that can do what others cannot.

Lincoln: http://www.mylincolnelectric.com/Catalog/home.asp

Miller: http://www.millerwelds.com/main/

Hobart: http://www.hobartwelders.com/products/

thanks Chief... I'm about ready to start saving up for a welder. I think I'm definitely going to go the mig way cuz I'm going to have to learn how to weld anyway. I figure I don't need to complicate things anymore then they already are.

thanks for the tips everybody.

This thread sounds wrapped up but I have to comment. Having never welded before, I recently purchased the Millermatic 175 MIG welder for my project. It's going to need lots of work.

Anyway, once I received some scrap metal from a friend and got it plugged in, it wasn't long before I was running some pretty darn good-looking beads.

I've since received some lessons in stick welding from a coworker and it's amazing how easily the wire feeder makes the job. I'm sure you are set on what you want but, if I had it to do all over again, I'd still go MIG.

Now I want a plasma cutter!

Yeah, one more thought before we wrap up...

Wookie, for welding , the mig is hands down over oxy acetylene. However comma I couldn't make do without my oxy acetylene torch aka the Gas Wrench. On both my truck projects and the tractors, I've used the daylights out of the thing in heating rusted bolts, etc to get them off. For a serious restoration project, the oxy-acetylene set up has a very important role -- just not welding. And when you want to impress by standers -- CUTTING!!! Waa HOO!!! Just don't do that near fual containers.... !

Just my thought.... There may be others in there...

Regards,
John

What John said is true - the O-A is good for other uses nowadays when the mig is available.

Decent cutting tool is it's strong point.

oh I already got a torch sitting here... I haven't used it for 12 years, but I'm going to get reaquainted this weekend!

YOU DON'T WANT TO OXY/ACET. You'll warp very bad, and it's hard to get good penetration w/out making another hole. You can't weld w/the cutting tip, you'll need to get some different tips. Plus, it will take you a good while to get good w/it. On the mig, pull the trigger, and you'll learn how to run a good pass quick. You'll have to play w/wire feed speed and heat, but a good starting point is to start w/low to mid heat, then set the wire speed low. Start w/that, and slowly increase wire speed until you can see the wire melt right @the point of contact w/the steel you're welding. When it's set right, it'll sound like bacon cooking, or a really loud bee or wasp. It shouldn't have any interruptions in the sound, like the wire 'catching up' to the amt of heat you're using. I know this sounds foreign, but once you pull that trigger and get to playin w/it, you'll understand what I mean. I've been a fitter / welder for many years, so any questions you have, post away.

Chk out Lowe's. You can get a very good wire feed welder for around 3 bills. They're gasless, but you can buy a kit to add gas for about $100 (which is good for heavier guages of metal, but for sheet the non-gas welding is good). You can play w/the fluxcore wire that might come w/it, but you want to weld w/solid wire. Fluxcore gets way too hot. Strong welds, but you don't need them that strong for what you're doing. Another little hint; if you're planning on welding stainless to carbon (regular steel), you want STAINLESS wire. Carbon wire will make the joint very brittle, and will break.

John Milliman, my fav nickname for the torch is Fire Hammer....

When it comes to welders, you get what u pay for. I have a Millermatic 250X with digital meters. I can tell you that this thing is amazing.

First off, spend the extra dough and get something bigger than u think you'll ever need. DO NOT BUY A HARBOR FRIEGHT BRAND POS!

It's always good to know that you can weld some thick stuff if you ever have to.

I'd stick with Miller. They are easy to get parts for and all the pros use em.

Jay

I'm thinkin I'll get something that will weld up to 1/4" think. that should give me some good versatility. what do you guys think?

That's an excellent plan. For 1/4" you are gonna have to get something that is 220volt (I would never buy a 110volt wedler for my primary tool).

Again, I recommend Miller. You can find information about their welders at www.millerwelds.com

BUT, do not buy from them, they are [censored] expensive. I bought my welder from Cyberweld.com ( http://www.cyberweld.com ) (I got a 250x, now called the Millermatic 251). They had it almost $500 less than anybody else, and it included free shipping! (they ship directly from factory)

I recommend the Millermatic 175. It is a great machine that can handle up to 1/4" and includes the regulator for gas. Miller is a great company and they have really good service and warrenty. My regulator was deffective and all I had to do was take it to a local dealer.

Whatever you choose, best of luck!

You can't go wrong with Miller,
Jay

hey, thanks for the links! yea that looks like some great info, and I've heard great thing about the Millers... I think that 175 would be in my price range too, and especially if they got free shipping!

There are lots of good names, and Miller is certainly one of them. Lincoln welders are at the top of the list also. The welder @Lowe's I suggested is a Lincoln 110v, and it will weld 1/4" stuff.

It all depends on what you're welding. If I had to put a front clip on a truck, my choice would be a crackerbox (stick machine), but that's me. If I were doing sheetmetal work, it'd be MIG hands dn. 110v is fine for your truck's body panels and such, but if you need to weld anything else, like car trailers or horse trailers or something that has larger thicknesses of metal (5/16" & above), then you may be better off getting a 220v. That 175 is a great lil machine for that.

That's my $.02.......hope it helps.

I can't explain the feeling I get when I weld 3/8" steel . Now if I could just find some scraps of 1/2", I would be welding them too.

If that lil machine is in your price range, I gurantee you won't be disapointed. The only reason I got such a powerful welder is because I am going to keep it for a long time, and I KNOW I have some 1/2" steel to weld in the near future. (I had to put in a 60amp 220 circuit to run the darn thing ).

Whatever you get, let me know how it works out!

Jay

oxy acet. is preferred more than a mig welder by many users. But in my opinion both are good, depending on how you function with these.

____________
mig welding

This may drift a bit off topic but I'll post it anyway.

About 6 months ago I was at Fort Lee Virginia at the US Army Ordnance School where they train Army welders. They had a really really cool virtual reality welding trainer. I'm pretty sure it was set up for stick welding. Anyway you used a "special" torch/gun/whatever the welding handle is called and wore a virtual reality welding helmet. When you squezed the trigger and got the rod near the material it would start to "weld." Through the helmet you saw what the weld would look like while your welding. The computer captured about 5 different data points while you were welding and would produce a "picture" in the helmet of what your weld would look like. The computer than evaluated all the data points (speed, heat, penetration etc.) and put it on a graph to show how good your weld was. It came complete with the appropriate sound effects.

I've never actually welded before but I thought it was incredibly realistic. When you were done welding the instructor replay your "performance" up on the big screen and would critique it with the class. You had to show proficiency on the virtual machine before you are allowed to go across the hall and start on real metal with a real welder.

They have found it to be very useful in teaching basic skills and it has both increased the speed at wich students become proficient and cut down significantly on materials costs.

Anyway I was very impressed. Cool stuff courtesy of Uncle Sam!

I wanna play with a trainer.

They are very cool, and if you check often here , there are some that pop up. Here's an old article covering the trainer. Old article to go with an old thread, I guess...

Brad

Just be careful with a MIG. It's relatively easy to run a good looking bead that won't hold for [censored]. Practice a bunch and test the quality of the weld not just the looks.

That is especially true if you arent using CO2/Argon gas. The worst thing you can do is try to weld with flux wire. A MIG is the best thing since sliced bread if you use the right ones. I DO want to get a TIG someday. But the most used workhorse in any automotive restoration shop is the MIG. Welding isn't easy to learn correctly, but once you get the hang of it, you want to just keep doing it!

Gotta disagree with all the young sprouts who pontificate about OAW welding, but "never done it". Divorced marriage counselors are "experts" too. Learning to control the puddle and the penetration with a torch is critical, and it gives a rookie a better understanding of what's really happening when metals are being fused together. OAW is the way I started out with all the students in the welding classes I taught for several years. Watching the pieces melt and fuse without pouring a huge gob of fresh metal into the gap is a definite learning experience, and learning when, and how fast to add the fill rod to produce a good bead is something that comes in handy later, when a student steps up to TIG welding.

MIG is for lazy people too impatient to experience the full learning curve of becoming a competent welder. Once some skill with a torch is developed, then the MIG system makes some jobs easier and faster. Like any other skill, there are no shortcuts to the process, and OAW is the logical starting point to build on.
Jerry

Jerry,
I'll be the last person to argue with what you said above. You say you've taught welding classes. I've never even taken a welding class.
I've been fortunate enough to have a friend show me how to use a MIG welder for sheet metal. I'm smart enough not to try anything structural at this early stage. I'm making steady progress with my skills. I test my welds too. I skipped over OAW. I just don't know that it was a mistake (or lazy) to do so. I don't have a real shop and a MIG setup was something I could find room for (just barely).

I just can't see that everyone needs to start with OAW. It depends on the aptitude of the student doesn't it?

Yeah, for me it was an economy issue. I had no need for old school equipment when newer and smoother, better equipment is available. Jerry was around when Ben Franklin was using Kites to weld with.

Although we admire these guys who used sticks and knives and rudimentary powders to win the revolutionary war, and owe them our very lives, we live in 2015 now. If you use OAW to weld a floor panel, or ANYTHING related to auto restoration, you are either very very poor, in which case I apologize to you if you feel I am being unfair, or very very very very OLD and forgot that if our society doesnt advance, we have a bigger problem than what we weld with.

Just being OBTUSE Jerry. As you would expect. If you are learning to weld in the 21st Century, get a good MIG with gas, and learn how to use it well. If that bothers your friends that you took this shameful shortcut, just tell them, what I always tell Jerry.

It IS April Fools. Hats off to Jerry for all the great advice he gives freely on a regular basis. Being as old as Christ, I worry because what the hell are we gonna do without him? Put a good word in for me when you get there Jerry. Maybe by then, THEY will have color TV.

Back when I learned to weld with gas and coat hanger or baling wire, I had a lot of old guys around to teach me. However, that was 60 years ago and they are all gone. I welded lots of fenders with gas because they tore all the time. But I don't care to go back to gas welding. I bought my first wire machine in the early 80's and haven't looked back. A lot of things are still best done the way we did it when the vehicles were current production. If I had never welded before, I would spend my time mastering wire welding. It is rather easy, but you still have to master watching how much penetration you are getting and how much wire you are burning. I think practicing wire welding is time well spent.

It scary to read that all the folks think that MiG is gonna just magically make better welds. NOPE

A MiG welder makes it easy to lay a bead. But penetration, surface prep and inspection are exactly the same. Poor penetration with a MiG welder is still going to fall apart no matter how nice the bead looks.

MiG is actually a bit harder in the respect. MiG requires setting the voltage AND wire speed AND your gun speed, then adjusting the stick out. You sorta do that with Gas, but with your two hands dynamically. Gas is a lot easier to make on the fly adjustments with. MiG you have to set up a test piece, then hope your workpiece doesn't vary to much.

If you want to keep gas around for heating/cutting then switch to propane fuel. Much. much cheaper.

I like MiG, but there are plenty of folks who work with sheet metal using gas... but they have years of practice.

While the guy who made these is very accomplished, he does most all of his sheet metal butt welds using O/A, including these fenders.


http://www.metalmeet.com/forum/showpost.php?p=122236&postcount=124


Most issues with warping or failure to control it are a technique problem, not the type welder used. Any welding process can and will warp..

You can easily warp a panel with MiG. And many lower end MiG units don't like to stitch (constant on/off) and you still have to have proper set up... duty cycle is still duty cycle.

I'd like to learn some 'mad gas skillz' but don't have the time to play with it.. and acetylene is still up there in price.

When I applied for a job as a maintenance man at the world's largest winery (Gallo in Livingston CA) the boss asked me if I'd ever taken a welding test. I was not then, nor am I now a "certified welder" but I told him I had taken the toughest welding test in the world- - - -take about 300 of my welds, strap my best friend inside them, and let a bunch of other race cars run into him at high speed! I got the job, and ended up welding miles of stainless steel thinwall tubing together from ground level to 50+ feet up in the air! We used TIG, with nitrogen backing inside the pipes to get 100% penetration, slag-free welds. Then we tested them with 100 lbs. PSI water pressure!
Jerry

The most technical weld I ever saw was done to the missile tube on the sub I was on. The post weld inspection (QA/SubSAFE) took longer than the weld.

The most technical welding I've never see was in the actual reactor compartment. Not on the vessel itself, but on the high pressure steam loop. Admirals come and what that get done.

My friend is a certified welder. The tests are a joke. Do a specific weld in a specific way. Not very 'real world' at all.

MiG is easy(er)... but you can still screw it up.

Yesterday was a banner day! I got to weld up an Excavator! I just turned the voltage waaaay down to B on my SP175+ and slowed the wire feed down, and VIOLA!!

Sometimes, a small child gets a little crazy with their toys and Uncle Deve to the rescue! The point is more that if you KNOW, really well, your MIG, you can get some amazing welds with amazing penetration to the point where you just know its perfect. The sound you hear is KEY. It all comes together. Even on a 50 year old Excavator!

Most unusual weld I know about was also on the Casmir Pulaski, there was a dwarf/little person (whatever the correct term is now a days) that would shimmy back behind the gear and weld whatever needed welding. All you would see is a line going into the back of something. He also did tank/valve inspections. Them access holes where very small.

He had the habit of not coming out the same way he would go in.. so you'd be waiting for him to crawl out but he's come up behind you and ask 'what are looking at'. Funny for the first 2-3 times.

HRL has it right about learning the fusion aspect of welding by butt welding with OAW. The same lesson can be learned with TIG on butt welds. The only difference is the "flame" is controlled lightning instead of fire.
Carl

We were expected to TIG-fuse those 16 gauge stainless steel pipes without using fill rod if at all possible. When the heat was adjusted properly and the wind didn't blow the argon shield gas away, the weld bead was less than 1/8" wide and did not build up above the surface of the outside of the pipe. We used a needle-sharp 1/16" tungsten electrode and about 40 amps or so of current, and the pipes were machined to a perfectly square fit with a special cutting tool prior to clamping the pieces together. Two 20-foot sections of pipe would be welded together on the ground, then hoisted into place by a crane or a manlift and welded into place in the overhead racks. We ran over 40,000 feet of 4" stainless pipe between February and May one year in a small modification of the piping system of the winery.
Jerry

Any wine connoisseur will tell you if the wine has been altered by the weld beads in the piping causing turbidity and affecting the delicate nose of the wine.

And monster cables make sound go faster!

I wanna learn to tig.. but honestly have no use for it that MiG won't do. Unless TiG gear gets to the price of MiG gear its not a hobby level skill.

I just bought a new 200 amp Miller MIG welder and it cost about the same as the 200 amp Miller TIG welder I bought about 10 years ago.