The Stovebolt Site Forums The Parking Lot Big Bolts 5.9L/6.7L cummins super duty GMC !

About what would it take to drop a 5.9 or 6.7 cummins diesel in to a ford F450/550 4x4 chassie with a 60-66 GMC truck cab ?

I'm interested in building another 60-66 GMC dually 4x4 only this time with a diesel engine!

The plan:

5.9/6.7L cummins diesel, 6 spd manual tran's, gear driven transfer case, using a 60" cab to axle ford F-450 or F-550 4x4 chassie and axle's as it is 1.5 ton or 2 ton set up that is pick up truck sized, 5.9/6.7 power plant/6spd manual tho not the stoutest but more than strong enough, gear driven transfer case, and 60-66 GMC cab with a 7 foot flat bed. . .should be one tough truck. . . than you got basicly a sawed off double barrel 10G shot gun small package loud bang big kick! . .

I only wanted the F450/F550 chassie for the simple factthat even tho it is 1.5/2 ton duty rated it's still pickup truck sized. . .

this truck won't really be hauling any thing routinely just a driver. . .

Now i could go with a Ford chassie that the cummins came in but i ain't going to and here's why . . .

the cummins diesel ford's are 600s,650s and 700s,750s and such way to heavy for the mud, and there not offered in 4 wheel drive very offten they could be ordered in 4x4 but they gear them down so there slow. . .I hope this makes more sence to you guy's as why i'm using what . . .


Mike

It would take a lot of fabrication and a good bit of money just for parts.

But I bet you already knew that?

My 48 6400 Detroit Diesel project is close to what you describe in theory, and it's a lot of work.

What you purpose sounds like a two step project, first complete the rolling chassis with frame, axles, engine, and transmissions. Second would be to fit the body around it.

To me the first part is straight forward.
The body swap could either be simple and easy, or complicated and aggravating.
For that reason I would consider a drive-train swap to the old body and frame. I think the chances of the whole project looking more professional, clean, and well thought out are better with just the engine and axle swap approach.

Grigg

But is the old A-fram and torsion bar front axle of the GMC going to swap with the leaf sring front axle of the Ford ? them ford axle's are 4.88 ratio than with 650ftlb torque engine in front of them will the 40+ year old chassie and spring shackles going handle it ?

Than i gotta get more picky on what 40+ year old truck i use. . . I would need to find a rust free 60-66 GMC 1ton-1-1/4ton dual rear wheel truck with a 60" cab to axle as most are 84" cab to axle and longer with 9'-12' long bed's i want the short truck with a 7 foot bed,
8'dump box = 7' flat bed. . .

it took me year's to find a rotten one aka
K-3000 cab ain't held on by much but it's strong running pull truck .

I would rather do the 2 stage swap have all later model running gear,and only have to find a 60-66 GM body . . .

measrue 5 time cut once weld once grind everything smooth should look just fine paint on everything. . .

Mike

The earlier 5.9 Cummins are a lot less Computered...
I suggest 91-97 which have a manual transfer fuel pump, are easy/cheap to hop up, 91-94 came with the NP205 gear drive/ cast iron case...

oh I'm not to interested in hopping the diesel up just a nice nice reliable engine is going to be more than plenty fine i think. . .

Ain't the 91-97 a 12 valve ? will the old 12v still rev out to 3250RPM like the 24V and be able to cruz at 2400-2600Rpm ? <<<< 65mph truck won't see more than 72mph. . . i think it be running about 2750rpm@72mph. . . I normally only drive about 68MPH. . . now the Ford chassie's come standard with 4.88 gear's and 225/70R19'5s . . .
I'll be running 245/70R19'5's or 265/70R19.5's. . . depending on tread that available I like Mudder's. . .

This will help figure speeds.
http://www.drivetraindirect.com/t_gear_calculator.htm

I don't know for sure what speeds a 5.9 likes to be run, but your numbers sound high to me. While I do believe it will turn that fast, you will burn lots of fuel, and shorten the life.

For best fuel economy you want the rpm at your preferred speed, say 68 mph, to be the same as, or 100 to 200 rpm over the speed that the engine makes it's peak torque. I am thinking 1800 is about right for the 5.9, but do some checking to be sure.

I don't know of any 19.5" mud tires. The most aggressive I could find about 3 years ago when I bought a set for my truck were Good Year G171 in 8R19.5. they are pretty tall, about 32-33" and pretty skinny, I liked them and they suite me fine, but I would not call them mud tires.

I just recently heard that the G171 tread design is no longer being manufactured. The replacement (not new, but the closest thing still available) is a much less aggressive G124. Perhaps there are some new better tread designs out in 19.5, or there should be soon, as I think the are starting to use that size rims on new Ford regular pickups?

Grigg

Just to add to the previous post. I had 2 Sterling trucks, 1 was a 26,001 GVW and the other was a 33,000 GVW truck. Both trucks had a 5.9 Cummins with a Eaton-Fuller 6 speed trans. The final drive was 1 to 1 for the trannys. The rear end gear was a 3:90 in each truck. The smaller truck had 10R-22.5 tires and the other had 11R-22.5 tires. These trucks would operate at 65 mph and run at about 2200 rpm. Plenty of power and fuel mileage was always around 10. The trucks would run harder/faster but didn't like it.
These trucks are now gone and have new Sterlings with Mercedes Benz power.

I've got a '98 dodge 3500 with a 12-valve cummins, NV4500 5-speed, and 4.10 rear gears. The 12-valve is governed at 2250 rpm but you can get a 3200 rpm governor spring kit pretty cheap. My engine turn ~2200 @ 65 mph and 2400 rpm @ 70 mph. Unloaded @ 65 mph it gets ~17.5 mpg and @ 70 mph ~16 mpg. Loaded it is usually around 13 and 11 respectively.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Grigg:
[QB] This will help figure speeds.
http://www.drivetraindirect.com/t_gear_calculator.htm

I don't know for sure what speeds a 5.9 likes to be run, but your numbers sound high to me. While I do believe it will turn that fast, you will burn lots of fuel, and shorten the life.

For best fuel economy you want the rpm at your preferred speed, say 68 mph, to be the same as, or 100 to 200 rpm over the speed that the engine makes it's peak torque. I am thinking 1800 is about right for the 5.9, but do some checking to be sure.

with 4.88 gear's 33" and .60:1 over ( unheard of steepest OD i've seen is .62:1 ) 68mph@2027rpm. . . not possable to get this rev's below 2200rpm. . .

4.88 gear's 33" tires 245/70R19.5/8R19.5 = 32.8"-33.2", Biasply 8-19.5 33.8"-34.6" my bias mudder's bald measure 33.25" my 3 good used measure 33.75"<<< 2 used General super all grip8ply in 19.5's,1 used firestone super traction 8 ply.

when i bought new set of the 8-19.5 firestone super all traction 8-19.5LT 10ply biasply mudders in 1998 i measured them at 34-3/8" tall. . .

5spd: .73:1 2466rpm@68mph. with 33" in tires.

6spd: .76:1 2568rpm@68mph. with 33" in tires.

.60:1 = 2027rpm@68mph. . .

truck is going to be a rever, Ford run's the power stroke with the 4.88's and 32" tire's. . .

Mike

The power stroke is not a Cummins, and they have different operating ranges. The Cummins makes its power and torque much lower than the ford.

Are you stuck with 4.88 gears? Either change to faster ones, or the 0.60 OD, like a 6 speed Allison 1000 from a Duramax could work OK.
The Allison 1000 and 2000 was/is installed behind the Cummins in some medium duty trucks, I don't think they had double overdrive like the GM pickups, but it's just a computer thing, and I hear that can be fixed.

This could be the perfect engine trans combination for you, at an unbelievable price with extra low miles:
http://www.4btswaps.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1670

Grigg

I.m not really looking for an automatic tho guy. . . But killer deal. . .

the 5.9L don't redline till 3250 like the 7.3/6.0L. . .so i figured i could whined it up to and hold it in the 2400-2600rpm zone. . .

Gear options: 4.88,5.13, and 5.29. . .tho i have heard tell a rare few had 4.30's in the 4x4. . .

I calculated it with 225/70R19.5's the stock size. . . 245/70R19.5 is the optional size but i can get 265/70R19.5's to fit the rim's. . .

what i may do is see if the 10 bolt 19.5's are the same as the small 10 bolt 20's and run like a 7.50-20 there 35"-37" tall depending on brand. . . or i'll have stuff the 265/70R19.5's 34.8"-35.2". . .

Worst case I put the 245/70R19.5's and only run it 65! ! mph!. . .

Mike

How about 9R22.5, they are about 38" tall, that's what I will have on my truck, and what I had on a 61 f350. 0.80 OD, 3.73 gears, and 9R22.5 was just about right for the Detroit 6V53T in the Ford, I ran about 70 at 2900. 3.54 may have been better for fuel economy, as I was often traveling 75-85 while out west and empty, never over 2300 for long, fuel mileage was around 10 and truck weighed 10,000 empty.

I do believe you can hold a 5.9 at 2400-2600, but fuel economy won't be anything special.

Check out this forum: http://www.4btswaps.com/forum/index.php
Lots of good info on mostly the 3.9, much of it applies to the 5.9, and even some info just for the 5.9.
They should be able to advise on the proper engine speeds.

Another thing, I recently saw a new, or only a year or two old Super Duty 450 or 550 with the exact Rockwell axle I had under the ford, (mine from a 2004 Freightliner) an RS-15-120. it's rated at 12,000lb, excellent Hydraulic disc brakes and gears from 3.31 to 7.xx or perhaps slower.

Or, what about a new Chevy about 4500 size chassis, they have a nice 4 wheel drive setup with what looks like about a Dana 70 or 80 high pinion. I would imagine that gears could be had in the 3,xx or low 4.xx range? They have large 8 lug hub piloted wheels that are available in 19.5 or 22.5" (I ran the 22.5 wheels on my ford).

Grigg

If this guy can do it in a 70 Monte Carlo,a truck should be a routine swap Cummins Monte Carlo.

the GMC 4500/5500 4x4 with 245/70r19.5's had less ground clearence than the ford with the 225/70r19.5's I'll be running 245/70R19.5 or 265/70R19.5 on the ford chassie for ground clearence and floatation the size depend's who has the more agressive tread. . . No not G124's either. . .Hankook: super traction: DHO1's are more my style. . .the 9R22.5 would be in a high way drive tire at best, Goodyear G124's or the tha firestone FDS456 or somthing like that Now find some super traction's such as
Firestone T-831's or Goodyear G-177's or Hankook DH01's than i'll go for it. . .

i want a tight compact body and chassie high clearence at the bottom with out a mile of empty wheel well. . . i want the top of tire to fender clearence fairly tight with the bottom of punking to ground fairly high Trust me i'ma GM guy but the ford has the dually 4x4 chassie i'm looking for and dodge had power plant. . .

I i want it geared medium heavy as it is going to apear as a 60's GMC truck. . .so i realy would like keep the R's up in the 2400-2600 zone on the interstate then it ain't lugging or working hard in town at slow speed's. . .

truck won't see high speed's such as 68-72mph for any more than 60 miles one way maybe as many as 5 time's a year. . .
So it ain't like i'm holding it in the red zone day after day. . . I'll run extra heavy oil in it. . .20w-50 or SAE 60 diesel oil. . .

Mike. . .

I'm guessing nobody offer's and agrresive 9r22.5 ? ? ?
has every one lost interest in my project ?
now what about 7.50-20's or 8.25-20's they have them in super traction grip tread's ? 36"-38" tall.
availble in Mud tead and snow tread start at loud and going to louder. . .

will the 19.5 10 bolt interchange with the 20's 10 bolt? they ofer 2 different 10 bolt's in the 20" dual rear wheel rim. . .

Mike

Best I could find for an aggressive 9R22.5 is a new good year, design I have not seen yet, but is supposed to be about like the G171 19.5 tire.

Then there is a Yokohama tire that is similar, but perhaps a little better.

What would be nice are some Michelin XL, XML, XZL military tires, but not available in 22.5" size.

I did see some Firestone's that were 10 or 11R22.5, and really really rough, about like the Michelin's, but looked a little better.

Grigg

I will need fairly heavy lugged tire as this truck is going to see the MUDDY area's might even be plowing rut's with the diff's if it grip's as good as the K-3000 that truck will dig a4-6 inch deep rut with the diff's and keep walking, so will the old B61 that truck has seen it's fair share of muddy situation's as well
Never really found enough mud yet to test the M123 but from what i'm told it will walk till threw solid mud till the yoke's hit and soupy watery mud it float till the tank's hit. . .

Back on subject:

will the 22.5's bolt to the 10 stud ford axle's ? they have kit's for the 8 lug axle's. . .

I was going with the 265/70R19.5's 34.25" tall cause they are nice and wide. . .I think with the diesel floatation is going to be a key player. . .

Mike

The only 22.5" wheels available to fit the 10 lug on 7.25" bolt circle were made for a 1956 Chevy 1.5 ton, and if made for more than one year is was very few. These wheels have the Chevy 5.25" center hole, and could be bored to the ford 5.46 center hole.
Is this the ford 10 lug you are thinking of?

There are no adapters made to adapt that pattern to the semi truck 10 lug, there simply is not room for the holes and lug nuts in an adapter. I did lots of research and calculations trying to find or make some, no luck.

What axles are you using, what's the bolt pattern?

How about 20" tubeless wheels with tires like the 46" Michelin XL tread?

Grigg

I was trying to keep this thing every day pickup truck sized like the K-3000 sit's the same as a 2wd 1 ton dually with 60" cab to axle parked next to each other i truck is only a hardly noticed 2 inches taller wheels fit nice and tight in the well's non of this 8 miles of empty wheel well. . .

it look's like the same 10 bolt GMC had on the 2wd 3000 or chevy C-40. . .the ford's use 225/70R19.5's so they ain't very big bolt cirle at all looks just like the 8 lug with 2 more added i would have to find time to hit the local ford dealer to measure one. . .

I like to know what i need, and all i may need before i buy any thing. . .

had to many good truck's tore apart that couldn't be finished and had to be chopped up and parted out or junked. . .I ain't wasting any more good iron.

I would rather stay with the 19.5's or go to tube type 20's. . .I gotta have mudder's. . .

Mike

here are the Firestone T831 tires, not small though:

https://www.bfentirenet.com/product...e=en_us&modelID=600&partial=true

Hey Mike both my 56 6100 and my 64 4000 have 10.00X22.5s on them take a look in my webshots and see what you think. They fill the wheel wells nicely and have an aggressive tread design.

Oh BTW the 64 started with 8 1/4X20s till I found tubeless wheels there is pictures in my webshots with both so you can make a comparison if you wont. The 8 1/4X20s where 38" tall the 10.00X22.5s are 40" tall.

How did you find them tread's and are they still around ? I may go with 6 tire's like what's on the drive of the dark green truck with the box up. . .

Mike

Both trucks have the same tires got them from Les Schawb tire the front are Toyo M120Zs the rears are Retreads with what they call a waste hauler lug just ask for matching virgin casings. Even with 4X4 on a bigger truck it is advisable to run a ribbed front-end tire up front. You really wouldn't be happy with that tread design up front besides retreads are not legal for steer tires.

I run mudder's of the steer's all the time on every truck i got. . . tho i have run recap's on the steer ever use the super traction Deep cap's / i'm currently running them in 245/70r19.5 14ply. . .drive and steer. . .just have too keep the air up. . .

Mike

Dude recaps are not legal on the highway as steer tires doing this you are asking for a huge fine and possible injury or death to you or someone else. Although you can run traction tires for steers there are specific traction steers and dual purpose traction tires but any tire shop worth its salt would highly discourage the use of a tread design such as the waste hauler lug as a steer tire. Michelin has an aggressive all-purpose tire used by the military that sounds like what you may want, I run very aggressive tires all around my pick-up but that is not quite the same thing. What are you trying to do with this truck anyway?

walking rather bogging threw 1-3 foot deep mud hole's whip some doughnut's just plain all around beat the hell right out of it like the 62 K-3000 used too till i realized it was too good of truck so i started restoring it than i found they discontinued most all biaply tires there are a few making highway tread's but mud tread's and even snow tread's are long gone firestone was the last they dropped them late 05 early 06. . .But the my 1962 GMC K-3000 is now going to be just a show truck i drive for on occasion. . .the "5.9/6.7L cummins super duty GMC" project is more of clone type of stituation. . . want a moderen drivable chassie, power plant, and tires i could replace. . .

the plan:

walking rather bogging threw deep mud hole's whip some doughnut's just plain all around beat the hell right out of it,
than drive it coast to coast hualing what ever drive it to work the store just a fun toy that i didn't have to worry about wearing out non replacable tire's or a non rebuildable engine...

I know you can't run "super traction deep" or any recap's on the steer not on any highway ruel back wood's road's in city. . . off road use only on steer's bla bla. . .

Anywho I want 8-19.5 Firestone super all traction's, General super all grip's, Goodyear custom extra grip hi miller's, or the off brand premium traction grip's. . .
but all of these have long been discontinued. . .
they look just like super swamper's. . .

I have run traction's and grip's for year's and thousands of highway mile's on the old 62 New set of 6 every year till there was non to be had, so I found one last like new set of the Traction/Grip hybrid's. . .

Super Swamper don't make a tire for a 19.5" rim so I have limited tire selection. . . G-171 8R19.5 forget those wast's of rubber for one there too small second they didn't grip for [censored] ! so now I have a set i never ever intend on using. . . I just found a used set of the premium traction grip's from Ebay witch will be for the 62 K-3000 as show tires only. . .

8R19.5 is much smaller than 8-19.5 proven fact ! ! !
but thats another subject all togther. . .

For project K-3000 diesel clone:

I was thinking of using 265/70R19.5 hankook super traction DH01's they seem about as good as it get's. . . not no G-124 crap ! I will never nor have I ever ran a straight tread tire on a 4,6, or 10 wheel drive ! I refuse I'll scrap my truck out first I've seen the G124's, i own the 6 G-171's Not good enough at all. . .

Radail tires:

Firestone T-831

Goodyear G-177

bridgestone L-317 or L-320

Hankook DH-01

Are the only tires I found that I like but it seem's only the hankook is offered in 19.5 that I can find. . .that should give all the info i can. . .when it see's mud it's muddy mud haven't ever had a problem mudding with a heavy dually. . .I go were most lifted Half ton's can't I've even pulled a few out. . .

ford rolling chassie dodge power plant 60's GMC body. . .do what i used with the old truck only this one has a new truck under the old one simple enough. . .

Mike

whats the deal fella's lost interest in this project ?
os am I it's looking to be a pain. . . I been spending a lot of money on the 10 ton project. . .

I'm going with the Hankook Super traction DH01 Radial's in 265/70R19.5's they measure 34x10.50R19.5 i forgot the ply rating i think it's 14ply might be 16ply. . .

I gotta find 2 CAB's one for the old 62' and one for this project. . .

I now got tires wheel's for this project next the cab than off to fine the chassie and power plant. . .

Mike D

i saw some 10-22.5's not what i'm looking for. . . way to big of tire my truck is pickup sized your rigs are MEDIUM DUTY sized. . . the K-3000 ain't any bigger than a C-20 with a 7ft bed. . .
look at the newer aka 98-08 F450/550's not any bigger than a super duty pickup. . . we got F-450 pickup truck's all over down here only seen one reg cab rest are 4 door cab's. . .

I'm looking for the REGULAR cab short wheel base chassie. . .

Mike

Tire's just arived this morning looking sexy. . . now to find just the right wheel's than order a set of 12 both truck's gotta match ya now. . .

Mike

Nobody interested any more i see ?

Mike

Pictures.....??

I AIN'T GOT NO PICTURE'S ! ! ! all i have is the tire's man! i just started planning this project. . . people got off tracked by tires and for once i didn't do it. . . honest !
i was trying to get all the info i could on this project . . .
it going to be about a 3 step program. . .

STAGE 1:
mount the Cummins engine/trans/T-case in the Ford chassie.

STAGE 2:
mount cab and bed.

STAGE 3:
Making it all run together. . .

but i have gotten as far as buying the tire's. . .
now I need the chassie engine chassie body and bed. . .

i'm cloning the " K-3000 " basicly only with a moderen diesel truck under the an old one. . .

i wanted some in put as far as what i may all need what issues i'm going to have from the get go. . .

I didn't get much for feed back on that. . .

Mike D

I did get side tracked by the tires, figured you had something to put them on and would be keeping us updated on the progress. I did not realize that the tires were the first step. (they will be my next to last step)

Well,
I doubt you find any one with detailed information on this project, as it has yet to be done.

It sounds like the project is feasible, I think we have all agreed on that part, now comes the work of making it happen.

If you can fabricate stuff, plan ahead, solve mechanical problems, and read a tape measure then all you have to do is get started.

I looked for help and ides while I was planning my project, and did not find much that directly related to my plans.

I did find it helpful to look at other similar trucks, for me that was pickups with 4-53T Detroit Diesels in them. I even bought a 73 Chevy with a 4-53T already installed, examined it, played with it, and sold it. I made friends with other people who have 4-53's in there trucks, crawl around under them, take pictures, and ask lots of questions.

by looking at other trucks I learned not so much what to do, but what not to do. Not that my friends trucks are bad, they are very serviceable and reliable. It's just the way problems present themselves in other peoples trucks is different then the problems I have in my truck, and my solutions are different to fit my application. Some things I did learn directly what not to do, but more because of personal preference then anything else. For example, I don't like hydraulic clutch linkage, so I made mine mechanical. Another thing, I could not see running a vacuum pump just for the brakes, so I went with hydroboost brakes, as I already have a PS pump.

You may find that your friends start imitating your ideas to improve there trucks. You have the benefit of seeing what they did, then you do your own thing, then your friends see what you just did, and go back and re-do what they did to start with, every one learns from each other, round and round in a circle.

You will be able to find help with making the engine run, and other small things, and we can offer input to problems as you approach them. The big part of this project has to be planned and figured out by you, we can't predict what you will need to do.

Hope this helps,
Grigg

i know i know i gotta get it in gear and get to getting. . .
the tire's are my #1 if i can't get aggressive tread's than i won't build it. . .
In this case i could get some so I'll build it. . .

This darn M123 project has had me whound up. . .
Now i guess i'm doing the whole darn thing at once. . .
paint, engine, and tran's ECT now that all my configuration have been ran threw my head and everyone else's it's going to work out fine so i just went to buying and collecting the component's needed. . . whatchin the $ $ $ fall. . .I got am engine deal in the work's tran's and auxy have been located and held. . .

So as this truck ain't sitting in my storage yard collecting debt I kind of hat racked it. . .
now i got some cash freeed up it has become interesting again. . .

mike. . .

were is a good place to start ? should start digging up the power plant first or the chassie ?

I have no idea where to start on this thing. . . I'm almost about ready to just put it in the vualt of good ideas never used. . .

Mike

If you are not sure you want to do the project, and are considering not doing it now, then don't do it.
You need to be 100% sure you want to start before you do, otherwise you may not be committed enough to see it through, and end up with a half finished project with a lot of money tied up in it.

If you do decide to continue then start with anything on the list of components you will need, and once you have enough of them to start putting something together go for it.

Grigg

I guess I should see where the good old M123 is headed first. . .
as that project isn't over budget yet but it maybe soon so i may have to barrow some cash from the super duty GMC project's budget to finish it. . .

last thing i need is about 42,000 pounds of dead iron. . .

Mike