The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area The Electrical Bay 6 volt turn indicators ... quite a dilemma

Well it's not "Burn Out Proof" as in bulbs can't burn out. As you can see the pilots are labeled front and rear. Not left and right. I believe they both flash at the same time. If one does not flash then it tells you you have a failure in the front or the rear depending on which pilot fails to flash. They have Maybe "proof" means that's proof of a failure. I don't know. We are working with a picture. The only one you and I found on the internet and John's pic. We don't have one to examine. I'm guessing at all this. I have wondered how the bulb case is grounded. I believe the hot center contact of bulb goes down into that copper pocket. The copper pocket is cantilevered over the edge and does not touch the surround ring of copper, which must be touch the bulb case. Something on the housing must touch the ring to ground the bulb. It could be those bright "rivet" heads on the bulb side. They do seem to be attached to the ground ring (if it's a ground ring) and are pretty tall? John's pic shows and insulator in the housing shell half.

I cut to the chase, assuming the bulbs are grounded, my plan has the pilots wired to blink right or left.

John's 700 has different construction than the internet pic. Same result I think. One is just Rev A.

As you may have said, this is hard work. We can certainly make both pilots blink if John wants.

I agree it's not "burn-out proof" but maybe burn out warning. The only way I can see that working is that the pilots are wired in series with the bulbs somehow. So a burnt out bulb would remove the ground path for the pilot light. Just guessing here.
John only posted pics of the wiring side of his alternate switch, not the one he's planning on using IIRC. Maybe John could post some detailed pics of the innards of his switch so we could be sure how the pilot lights are connected. Assuming they're grounded just doesn't quite work. If I could get my hands on a 700 switch, I could trace it out.

Agreed, talk tomorow.

The design is like this. Both pilots are suposed to flash. The pilots are marked front and rear. Front pilot is on the left and rear pilot is on right side looking at top of switch from lever end. As if it was not mouned to column. The SignalStat 700 "analog algorithm" is: if lever is in right turn mode and the front pilot is off, it means the Left Front bulb is bad because the oposite of lever position is left "turn" and front pilot is off. If rear pilot was off, same lever position, it would mean that Left Rear bulb was bad. Interpolate for Left turn lever position. It can, of course, be the wiring for the offending bulb.The fact the pilot flash serves anoither purpopse, a reminder to turn off turn signal lever after turn. This is the sole function of most pilots on a non self cancelling T/S switch.

I have not read every word in this thread but have paged through it. I have a hand drawn schematic of my turn signal/brake light system, it probably won't photograph good enough to do you any good. I used two DPDT relays, one for the left, one for the right, they have a set of NC contacts and a set of NO contacts with 12 volt coils. Mine is 12 volt but that should not be an issue in your design. As I mentioned in a prior post, my turn signal switch is a three wire. Works like a dream like a modern system without failure for the last 6 years, 100% electro-mechanical.

78buckshot, Here's a DPDT relay setup I found on the web in another forum. It's basically the same thing as Ken's 4-relay setup, except the relays there are SPDT. The one below is likely the same as yours, and combines the relays for each side into a single relay, just with more contacts available.

It would work just fine, but the issue with John's 700 is that the pilot lights are combined with the corner light circuits and somehow indicate burnt out bulbs. This schematic, (and Ken's) doesn't really address that function. If John is OK with that, then either your two DPDT relay setup or Ken's four SPDT relay setup would do the job.

[on edit] DPDT relays with 6V coils are harder to come by than Bosch style SPDT relays that have spade terminals. Not impossible to find but it will be an industrial "ice cube" relay with either a socket base with screw terminals or pins to solder on to a circuit board. A little harder to adapt than Bosch style with sockets.

I can't believe this thread is into its 5th page here. Incredible. Since it's got so much interest, I figured I'd better change the title ...

I just noticed the title change Peggy. Probably appropriate.
We're just trying to help the boss out with his project.

Relays added. Here is a 2 relay system and a 4 relay system. I used the picture of John’s switch, I suspect the contact is a different shape.
I’m guessing the indicator bulbs are in series with the rear bulbs, but I don’t know how they function. I’m just going off of what someone said on another forum describing cutting the black wires and adding grounds, and that caused the indicators to be opposite.
For the two relay system the two black wires in the switch are cut to isolate the front and rear lamps, move the two wires and add grounds as pictured.
I had to make a picture for the 4 relay system to understand what is happening. For the right turn, Power is sent through the turn switch through 2 contacts. One contact to the black wire internal to the switch that goes to what looks like a green cloth wire(I drew red) to #85 of the two right relays. #85 energizes the relays, connecting #30 to #87. The other contact (drawn as black) to #30 of the right Front relay, the right front bulb, and #87 of the right rear relay. The right rear relay connects this through #30 to the right rear bulb. The right front relay is now conducting the signal from the flasher to the 2 right bulbs through #87. Both right bulbs are getting a steady supply through the switch and a flashing supply from the flasher. I’m not getting how this works. Remove the Black and Green wire and this works, the four relay system is good for a 3 wire switch.
Please verify, I only attended a 2 year college and that was only 25 years ago.

Walter, you've pretty much got it. Your 4 relay diagram works like the one that Ken has, but the downside is the pilots won't act the same way as originally intended with separate rear turn and stop circuits. Your 2 relay system is the same as Jerry drew up, but the relay transition is the only time that the rear bulb would be off (very short.) The transition is ON/ON. Jerry is proposing adding a resistor in series with the diode from the switch, which would make the bulb dimmer when the flash happens, so the rear light would be bright-dim with the turn signal with brakes and dim-off with the turn signal only. There's no need to do anything to the 700 since you're tying them back together outside the switch anyway. The pilots in the 700 would work exactly like originally intended, and would be the best solution to the issue.

Kevin, the diagram that you found is pretty much how mine is wired. The pilot lights in my system are factory installed in the dash gauge cluster and I didn't have to re-invent the wheel so it was easy for my project.

You are right Kevin and 78buckshot, that diagram is the same as mine. Just two relays in one package X 2. Mine has a pilot function, that one does not but can have it the same way I did it.
The normal indication for a burned out bulb is a faster flash due to lower resistance to bimetal. The function I have will show which side has malfunction. Figuring out which bulb is kind of easy. Hopefully John agrees.
I can't wait for his response, "going to be a hot time in the old town tonight".18 pages should cover it.

Kevin, if John likes the DPDT can you PLEASE redraw it so the thing is right reading from the bottom, fits the PC screen, good clear printing, not cursive and darker. It's driving me nuts to read it. I know you didn't draw it. Kudos for it's content to the person who posted it.

Mine is funky also, I don't have any drawing tools except paint. I don't like to redraw things for fear I make a mistake and it gets blasted out to the internet forever. Example: a member's website showing wiring for a vintage headlight switch.

I was thinking the same thing, but what I came up with would clearly not pass the 'kid' test. A certain type of "show", or something involving a cluster, if you will. (If there are kids out there that can figure these out, it's too late to protect them anyway. )

These post are exactly what I mentioned about brainstorming. Folks have presented what turns out to be a slight challenge, but we marched on. Trading ideas, jogging memories of diagrams people had and have used. Suggestions, modifications and melding of ideas to find the optimum. Searching til blue in the face. Building a really great archive. Albeit a "cluster show" at times...and some fun. More choices may come or John will choose a path or two. It's neat to see brainstorming work like it should. Lots of participation. Members out there saying to themselves "those guys are nuts, I had the answer long ago but wanted to see them struggle"...or "I wasn't sure and didn't want to get corrected". That's OK, it takes all kinds to make a world. The goal is to satisfy the poster and explain it in a concise manner so all skill levels can do it.

Optimum solution: is not really an exact solution. It is seen as about the best you can do with the most criteria met. It is compared to doing nothing, changing course, accepting what you have, doing something out of the box.......eliminate the subject item.

OK, since we’re brainstorming, I wanted to exercise the “little gray cells” in my brain, so I’ll throw my design in the ring for comment. It’s just basic and doesn’t incorporate the Signal Stat 700 into the mix.

Once I figure how that works, I might try to include it in the design.

"You really can make a silk purse from a sow's ear, but it makes the pig look funny, and it doesn't hear very well afterwards!"

LOL!
Jerry

OK Jerry we get it. You think I should be using a 900 and not the 700. Well, I'm not and to keep banging that drum is not helping. If I was that interested in doing everything better, I'd just go out and get a 2025 Chevy 3500 and be done with it. But that pretty much misses the point, doesn't it?

To trace the circuits, I disassembled one of my 700's. What I found looks different from what Walter shows earlier in his photos.

The picture below shows a left turn selected. Only two contacts being made (at 1 o'clock and 7 o'clock).

At this point, there are a few things I'm not sure about:

a. Not sure I understand why I need to care about the pilot bulbs? They will do what they do when they need to do it.
b. Not sure why we care about what's going on inside the 700. We know that if we run current to it, we will get 4 discrete lines out -- Two for the right and two for the left
c. Not sure why we care about the two wires for the front turn signals -- Just hook 'em up and ... done.
d. Leaving us with just two wires to sort out -- left and right rear turn signals
e. The problem then is how to combine the signal coming from the turn indicator switch with the signal coming from the brake light switch.
f. Then I'm not sure why it has to be this hard.

Phil has a pretty ingenious solution, using two relays and one additional flasher. But with constant power going to the 700, the pilot light issue is still there. They'd be on continuously in L or R, but may function pretty much like originally intended, just not flash. It doesn't use intermittent power to the relay coils that bartamos objected to, but a constant latch-in to send flasher output to the brake light on the left or right.

On initial inspection, I like it.

John, your explanation helps on the 700 function, but I'm still unclear on where the pilot filament is connected. Is it between points C and D? The description on the face of the 700 that I posted says that a non-functioning pilot indicates a burnt out bulb on the opposite side. I still don't understand the magic of how that happens.

Kevin,

I went back and deleted all that. Upon inspection of how the selector switch actually works, my tracing and explanation of it is completely wrong. I can map it out in a bit, but I haven't eaten yet today, I've inadvertently deleted working files and images while I've been working so I'm frustrated.

I can map out the circuits for you but I think its a waste of time per my explanation above in my edited post. Once you see how the connections go, you can see how it could work that the opposite bulb is lighted or not... Seems retarded to me. But then again, so do a lot of things at the moment.

Just two wires (right and left rear) that we need to combine with the brake light signal. Does it have to be this hard??

I'm thinking I'll just use your two relays. Get a couple of diodes and just start playing.

John

Before you try the diodes, give Phil's diagram a try. I think it might work well for you. You can test it out with a single flasher on one side. If it works, then get another flasher and socket and you'll be done.

o.k. It looks like this analysis may be a waste of time, but here it is anyway.
Looking at how the pilot indicators work, the text on the front: “PILOT FAILURE INDICATES SIGNAL FAILURE OPPOSITE LEVER POSITION”, and the two bulbs are labeled Front, and Rear.
Using Johns picture in the left turn position, I have added some colorful lines. It looks like the pilot bulbs contact is connected to where one of the the switch contact is at 7 o’clock for the front and 5 o’clock for the rear. I’m making a couple assumptions about the pilot bulbs. The pilot bulbs operate in both directions meaning that their ground is switched depending on the direction selected. The pilot bulbs must have much greater resistance than the signal bulbs(or would it be the other way around?). For the left turn setting we can see, indicated by the pink dashed line, the left front and rear signal bulbs are connected. What is not so obvious is that the front pilot is getting power to it’s contact, and the case is going to ground through the right front signal bulb. The rear pilot is getting power to it’s case and is grounded from the contact through the right rear signal bulb. Both pilots are illuminated, using the opposite side signal bulbs as ground. If one of the opposite side bulbs burns open, the pilot will fail to illuminate. The opposite side does not illuminate because of the proportion of current going through it. Hey that’s pretty neat, does that make sense, or am I off my rocker? The next thing to look at is what are the bulbs rated at? Pilot vs signal?

As originally wired, both of the 700's I have had the flasher upstream of the 700 (on the line supplying power to the unit). So, Phil, what is the reason to put two flashers down stream?

Maybe this will help. I've tried to illustrate the actual problem to solve. "Solve for X"

But it kinda looks like I can make Phil's diagram work. As long as I can completely remove the front lights (they are accounted for) and put the flasher on the incoming power line.

Thanks,
John

So the relay isn’t constantly cycling. Once energized it cuts the brake light off and now powered thru the flasher circuit.

OK boys and girls,
We have had several good ideas and some have issues.
1. We have diagrams with 1 flasher and 4 SPDT relays.
2. We have had 1 flasher and 2 DPDT relays.
3. 3 flashers, 2 SPDT relays
4. 2 flashers, 2 SPDT relays
5. Diodes and relays
6. We have had the same plan, just drawn differently
7. Re-Do's of Re-Do's
The ideas that will work have the same theme. You must change the 700 from receiving flash to receiving power. That is a main issue. Then you use NC NO relay functions to route in a way that allows brake function.

John: What do you mean "As long as I can completely remove the front lights (they are accounted for)"

Ken -- It means that as it stands right now, I can hook the front turn indicators to their respective wires coming from the 700. Because I modified the front housings with a dual filament socket, I have separate circuits up there for both the marker/parking light and the turn indicator. No need to make them work with anything else. They work just fine as intended. No further need to bother with them. They are good. We can remove them from the discussion.

"You must change the 700 from receiving flash to receiving power." I have no idea what that means. The 700 receives flash AND power and sends it where it needs to go.

Is it an issue with the relays?? Will the flash/on-off power get misinterpreted or something like that to cause the relay to do something we don't want it to do? Is that why we want the flasher down stream of the relay?

John, my system does not cycle the relay when the flashers are on, the relays chooses which side to flash and the flasher can is upstream of the relays. AND, to throw another wrench in the works, I have been holding back with this gem-I have an add-on 4-way vintage flasher wired into the same system and it all co-exists!

Buckshot -- Need to see a diagram of your solution.

And in doing my own research, I came onto this discussion -- in a Ford site.. Exact same scenario as mine only he's got positive ground. And his works!

After reading through their discussion, Phil's diagram above makes a whole lot more sense to me.

If the Ford guys can figure it out ...

No John you can't do that. There is no presented method for just doing the front directly from the 700 wiring and then do something for rears without relay or flasher schemes in the front lines.

The original "input" or method that the 5th wire, the yellow wire, gives a signal/power to the switch (or the method the switch receives a signal/power)...was from a flasher, a flash signal from a flasher. We can not do that. I'm not using terms like upstream or down stream. Too easy to mis interpret by someone. Anyway, We have to change the whole 700 operation. The diagrams that seem to "work" MUST send direct 6V into the yellow wire, into the switch. Not from a flasher. The circuitry of relays and etc., sends a flash to front and rear lamps and allows for brake. Yes any single bulb brake, turn and marker system needs dual filaments all around.

The site you just mentioned has trailer converter, a diagram close to what we already have and also shows a 7 wire switch. I do not want to get into that site. I've seen a whole bunch of stuff on the web regarding this type of issue. Filtered it with other members to narrow down to almost an answer. None, that I have seen, have converted a 700 to what we want it to do. That's why we need to convert the 700 first, to have it's input and output in a new way to accomodate circuitry that works. Basically make it into an ON/OFF switch.

John, that ford-trucks.com thread is where I found that DPDT relay diagram I posted. It's basically the same thing a Ken's 4-relay diagram. It would work but 6V DPDT relays are hard to come by in the right configuration. It just packs the two relays per side in to one box.

Again, I like Phil's solution.

After reading this 20 page thread on turn signal installation, I think I'll stick with the good old, tried and true left arm.

I looked at the Ford site and tried to duplicate the idea. Here is another diagram that uses two relays and only one flasher.

John would need to rewire the front signal lights and I’m not sure how it would connect to the Signal-stat 700 nor how the pilot light would work. More research needed.

EDIT: Do Not Use this diagram. This one will not work!

Phil, on that schematic, both the front and rear lights on both sides would come on when the brake pedal is depressed.

I think he did, making the statement "John would have to rewire the fronts"....maybe.
If otto doesn't want to build an adapter, no-one makes one, or is it Lokar expensive.

Yes, Phil did say that. Separating out the front lights would need two more flashers to make them flash. That would essentially be my 3-flasher schematic.

Walter's schematic on page 17 is very doable. The third drawing makes total sense.
Rather than using full Bosch 30 amp relays, which might be the cheaper route to go, but finding 4 smaller maybe 5 amp. Very little draw. No diodes, a single flasher and adapts to his old stalk.

I'd build one....if I needed to, but I'm slapping in an old 7 wire NAPA from the early 60s.

Whatever relay/flasher circuitry is chosen, you will need to modify the 700 wiring. This will also light the pilot light on the side of turn direction.

Looking at enclosed pic: WIRE SIDE
1. Remove the two black jumpers.
2. Jump 9 o'clock terminal to GRN lead terminal at 7 o'clock.
3. Jump 3 o'clock terminal to BLK lead terminal at 5 o'clock.
4. Ground Red and WHT leads to remote ground spot under dash.
5. Bend up bottom tab on three tab rotor blade.
6. YEL lead to 6V fused from ignition switch.
7. GRN lead to right relay/flasher circuit chosen.
8. BLK lead to left relay/flasher circuit chosen.
9. Pilot bulbs are no. 51 for 6V and 53 for 12V. They won't blink but will remind that blinker is on.

clocking refers to the terminals around the lever rotation center.
If some 700 models have different wiring than the example pic, regarding rotation contacts, please enclose pics for wiring correction needed in above list.
Test any ideas/diagrams/instructions you see in this thread on the bench.

I see my error, back to the drawing board!

John, does the 700 you plan to use have have two arms like the photo you posted or three like the one bartamos posted?

You basically, with all these diagrams, are changing the 700 to an ON/OFF three wire switch. The 700 is a switch all by itself. Unique in a bad way. The pilots are in series with the four corner bulbs so as to identify a bad bulb. This makes conversion difficult. It is an idea that didn't make the cut to brake inclusion. I do advise a 6/7 wire vintage replacement. This is my conclusion (AAR). Bastardizing it seems wrong. Relays and circuitry is a Frankenswitch. Nothing left of original switch except the shell.
But we did complete the mission.

This hurt my eyes. But only because of the modern (GM) wire color standards.