The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area The Electrical Bay 6 volt turn indicators ... quite a dilemma

Jerry, I took your diagram and added the two diodes. BTW, you had the diode symbols backward (I had to look it up.)

Thanks- - - -now, are those PN or NP diodes? Current flow is usually shown opposite the arrow direction- - - -at least where the Dead Sea scrolls we used in USAF electronics school back in the 1960s were concerned. As long as the forward bias current flow is toward the bulb filament, the circuit will work.

The circuit might also work with vacuum tubes, but then it would be necessary to empty the grid leak drip pan occasionally.
Jerry

Yeah, It's always a good idea to check the current flow direction before committing to soldering them in. There's an 80% chance it'll be wrong the first try.
Here's the web resource I referred to. It assumes that current flows from positive to negative. If John were to use this on a GMC (positive ground) then he'd have to reverse the diodes.

Doing it with vacuum tubes would be kind of tough, as those things are a scarce as hen's teeth now. I recall heading to the hardware store to use their tube tester. Kind of dates me, of course.

John might want to consider using a tube circuit- - - -it would be "period-correct" with the 4 wire switch!

LOL! But he'll be able to hide the diodes, so they won't spoil the "period-correct" look.

The relays and other circiut components can be anywhere- - - -since electricity travels at approximately the speed of light (186,000 miles per second) they can be hidden under the dash somewhere. Nothing like being sneaky!
Jerry

Speaking of going down the "tubes", I gotta do my taxes. I've been "relaying" too long. My cache will now "flow" in the wrong direction. Diode too much money.

You guys are just weird. What is wrong with you?
Worrying about blinkers when the real road hazard is from the driving habits of gawking drivers, drooling over our overly cool looking trucks.
We would all make for substantially safer roadways if we kept our trucks at home with or without blinkers.

******************************* I was working on all of this and did not see what you had posted *************************** I do not want to delete this just yet, but I can not go back and review this evening ... I'm done. Long day in the truck and I'm fried. Talk more tomorrow.

Diodes??

Well, for one, I'm not that concerned about the pilot lights. I think the 700 flashes them anyway. Two, I thought you all jumped my (bad word omitted) for originally wanting to go with diodes ... ok...

Anyway, based on all the great input, here is my diagram of what I intended as my initial bench test. Remembering:

1. The signal stat 700 has 5 wires: power input; left front; left rear; right front; and right rear.
2. My front parking lights have been modified to a 2 filament socket (marker light and bright/turn sig). The bright side ONLY functions as a turn signal. It does not need to share the circuit with any other signal (like a brake ...).
3. In an initial bench test, the 700 powered 2 (at a time) turn signals with one flasher just fine. I do not have enough functional turn signals (offboard of the truck) to do an all up test. I was thinking an all up round test was not required, due to the turn signals only needing two at a time anyway, but am rethinking that because of the need to include brake lights in the test. So I may have to get two more turn signals functioning.
4. Only the two rear lights need a dual function bright side.

Do relays not prevent backfeeding? I can see where that could be an issue.

At anyrate, given all the above, here's my back of the envelope stab at a wire diagram for my bench test. I do not depict the marker light circuit as it is irrelevant to this system.

Thanks,
John

Just to be sure when I speak of pilot lights, I mean the built-in original one's on the 700. My contribution provides everything you want including original pilot lights. If another method looks better, that is fine. My suggested circuitry, mostly from the internet pic I saved years ago while wiring a Willys Jeep Sparton T/S, has been tested and it works 100%. The instructions for the modificatoins to the 700 wiring hookup and bent contact are mine.

I did know everything you just went over regarding your lights/bulbs/700 and the functions you want.

I have been wanting to ask, what is a marker light on your truck? I think it has has several meanings now a days vs old school. Just wanted to know in this situation.

No, relays DO NOT prevent backfeeds. You will either need a 7-wire turn signal switch, or wire things up EXACTLY the way I drew the circuit, with four diodes. For instance:

www.ebay.com/itm/334910742576?

OR

Spend a couple of years attending a good electronics school so you can design your own circuits.

Jerry

John, you got close with your diagram, except that you don't have any signals UNLESS the brake pedal is pushed. That's where I was initially with one of my diagrams.

And I for one wasn't busting your chops for suggesting diodes. I tried to help you get that to work, but the way I suggested originally didn't work. Jerry's solution is what you need. Add 4 diodes to your diagram and you've got it. Here's Jerry's diagram that I modified to add the extra two diodes he initially missed.

Ken, I've already said it twice - the 700 had NO separate circuit for pilot lights, they're incorporated in the output to the left and right light circuits.
With your schematic, which will indeed work to isolate the brake lights, the pilot lights will be steady whenever the signal lever is in left or right, since there will be no flasher upstream of the signal switch.

READ THE INSTRUCTIONS~!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! While looking at the 700 pics you posted.

This flasher duplicates the original 3 terminal design which was used with the Signal-Stat 4 wire turn signal switch:

www.ebay.com/itm/303503036652?

The terminal labeled "P" on the flasher is there specifically to flash a pilot light, either on the dash, or on the end of the turn signal switch stem. The Signal Stat switch had a green light on the end of the handle which was connected to the P terminal on the flasher. I've installed a few dozen of those systems on big rigs, back in the 1970s, at a minumum. They work.
Jerry

I understand about the P terminal Jerry. I have one of those 3 prong flashers. But the problem with John's Signal Stat 700 is that the pilot lights are integrated with the bulb circuits and don't use that wire from the P terminal. They function both as pilot lights and indicators for burnt out signal bulbs. I'm not entirely sure how that works, but they don't use that P wire. Without modifying the circuits internally (Ken is advocating bending the contacts, but I didn't see how he's going to get the pilot lights to work. I'll need to take a closer look) the pilot lights will stay on steady with Ken's 4 relay setup. I have an AutoLamp 9000 switch that has a single pilot light that does use that P wire.

OK. I did. You're advocating changing the circuitry inside the 700. And you accuse me of complicating things by adding flashers to the front circuits? Your instructions were pretty vague as to how you wanted to modify it. I wasn't able to understand what you were describing without pictures or a schematic.

"the pilot lights will stay on steady with Ken's 4 relay setup. NO THEY WONT. THEY WILL FLASH.
Please indicate that you understand that my suggestion for John is to use the 4 relay diagram I posted TOGETHER with the instructions I posted and while looking at the 700 pictures you posted as a referernce to the instructions. There is just one tab on the three tab rotor. You bend it just a little bit up away from the board so it no longer makes contact with the "stator". I use these terms because the 700 is a rotary switch.
Once you absorb the whole picture you will see all will be as original...... look and feel, with the desired light functions. If you find a mistake, glad to discuss. It's no good unless one person sees it like I do.

Not "changing" the circuitry, I am rerouting the wires in the 700 to the 4 relay circuit..... and one mechanical bend.

Diagram at post#1540928
Instructions at post #1541681
Link to pic of inside a Signal Stat 700 #1541667

The pilot lights are sort of an "idiot proofing" attempt to alert a driver he's still got a flasher working after a turn, on a non-cancelling setup. It would also be possible to wire the P terminal to a solid state beeper with a low current draw to give an audible warning instead of getting OCD about pilot lights. I've done that once, to warn a particularly dense (blonde) secretary at a school where I worked, to remind her to quit riding her brakes. She would wear out three sets of brakes in a school year, and when we came back from summer break, she was ready for another brake job. I connected a LOUD beeper to her brake light switch. I followed her down the road one day, and her driving technique was GAS-BRAKE-GAS-BRAKE-GAS-BRAKE-GAS-BRAKE- - - - - -constantly! The quintessential "2-foot driver"! I think she was living proof of the old adage "Peroxide rots brain cells!"
Jerry

Agreed Jerry, I just thought John was hard over on originality so made an effort to make the pilots work. But he did say he did not consider it necessary. But on the other hand if he wants to keep the 700 it should have the pilots.

You and I and others would have gone to an old 6/7 wire but he made it clear we are too modern. I do get his feeling about it. It is neat to have it. It turns out while I have been involved in this that the dam thing is pretty rare.

Jerry's circuit diagram with the brake light relays and diodes makes the 700 work just like original without any modifications of the turn signal switch. And the pilots will work exactly as the manufacturer intended.

Done deal in my mind.

I posted a similar diagram yesterday, but said I don't think a flash would be discernible because: using the diagram you added diodes to of Jerry's, it is my guess that while brake is applied in the turn, when the transition happens as 87a and 87 latch back and forth, which is an ON/ON in a split sec, that the filament which is brake and turn will look like it's not flashing. Experiment will tell. I decided not to pursue that diagram I posted. Jerry may have used this method and knows it works. I could be paranoid. I prefer intuitive.

Also where would the "feedback" be coming from to the brake wire? Why diodes there?

All right. We're getting there!

Ken -- Sorry. I'm using Parking Lights and Marker Lights interchangeably. I hear it both ways a lot.

Jerry -- "Spend a couple of years attending a good electronics school...." That's funny. So .... did I. Not just any ole electronics school, but the finest one on the planet. Doesn't mean I remember much after 40 years of not doing it.

I did it in 1968. I didn't realize Marines could attend USAF schools- - - -who knew? Then I put it to use for several decades- - -USAF aircraft, auto and trick wiring systems, and industrial maintenance. Then I taught a couple of generations of high school kids to do it. The diodes at the pin #30 position prevent both brake light filaments from flashing by backing up through the "normally closed" contacts when the brakes are not applied. It's a simple and very effective method of creating a brake light discriminator circuit.
Jerry

When the flash signal hits 85, the relay switches from 87a to 87, so I don't see a feed back source. 87 is dead.

"Belt and Suspenders" approach. Might not be necessary, but it doesn't hurt to have a little redundancy built in. Plus, a couple of extra diodes cost WAAAAYYYY less than two extra flashers.
Jerry

DANG IT Ken, you've thrown another monkey wrench in the works!
You're right, it's an ON/ON transition. I ran into that when I was originally bench testing the relays I sent to John. It flashed off, but just barely enough to be seen. That's why I pulled the connection off of 87, but then there wasn't a feed to the brake/turn unless the brake switch was on.
I think the two relay setup with constant power from the turn signal switch and two additional flashers for the front bulbs or your 4-relay setup is the only way it's going to work. The downside with John's 700 switch is the pilots will be on constantly when the switch is in left or right (without monkeying with the switch circuitry.)

Point taken- - - -let's do this- - - -delete the diodes at pin 30 (not really necessary) and add a 3/4 ohm 25 watt resistor in series with the diode going to each brake light filament. The bulb will flash enough to see a difference between tail and brake lights at night, and show a bright/dim difference in sequence with the flasher during braking.

www.ebay.com/itm/393536817323?

Jerry

I can't keep up with this because I have to go back and forth to the bathroom all day long......and I don't have a lap top. Getting old is not for sissies.

Don't blame you Ken. I think the comms are breaking down on this one. Its probably my fault for not defining the requirement better.

I will need to wave off for a bit to catch up, digest and perhaps try a few things on my own.

Jerry -- It's ok you went in the Air Force. The Military isn't for everyone.

Jerry to the rescue again! Air Force not withstanding.

Might have to adjust the resistance to get enough difference in brightness between brake/turn on the bulb. Theoretically, the same resistance as the bulb filament would halve the brightness, right?

This whole thing is HARD to follow.

I highly recommend the 4 relay/instruction method. It's easy. It works. The "monkeying" is very simple. Be the first in the world to transform a 700. I really really really don't understand the resistance against it.

Wire it. tie wrap it, mount 4 relays on a plate, mount the plate, tuck it under the dash, route the wires nice, then rest.

I can do a complete diagram from 700 to relays, if you wish. I can explain anything further. You can email me if you run into trouble

Wow! 16 pages, I read most of it several times. I like pictures, please see attached.
I found a picture of the Signal Stat 700 on-line. This mod should work, however the brake lights will over-ride the signal lights. That could be solved with relays. This requires modifying the switch. Remove the two black wires from the switch. Move the red right rear wire to the other end of where the black wire was, same for the Left rear white wire. Where those two wires were tie that point to ground. Add diodes as pictured. Connect the brake light with diodes as pictured. The diodes on the brake light circuit will prevent the flasher from crossing to the other side. The diodes on the signal lines will prevent the brake signal from illuminating the front bulb when the switch is on. Also attached a picture of the stock left turn position to understand what is going on.

Bulb filament resistance is highly variable, according to time. It starts out as virtually a dead short, and increases rapidly as the filament heats up. Simply using an ohmmeter doesn't work. An oscilloscope is better, but we're dealing in milliseconds as the filament starts to glow. A variable resistor for experimentation purposes would be a good solution, then measure the resistance where the bulb response is best.

We've spent an inordinate amount of time and effort just to accommodate a stubborn refusal to use the right part for the job- - - -kind of like humoring people who try to use two carburetors on an inliune six! All fun and games in an effort to ignore the proper solution to the task at hand!
Jerry

But we've had fun doing that, right? If we insisted on using "the right part for the job" as you put it, all of our stovebolt trucks would be in the scrap heap and we'd all be driving 2-3 year old pickups. What's the fun in that?

I don't think that Walter's modification works, as he said the brake lights override the signals, which is where we were back on page 1 of this thread when I posted a simple diode diagram. Some sort of relay HAS to be used at least for the rear lights. Like I said, understanding this whole think is HARD.

[on edit] Ken, where did you go? I was just replying to your post, then POOF!

You are correct Kevin, but he does say it would need relays. So as I said, folks need to diagram the whole thing not just words. Complete wiring diagram. Cut and paste...whatever.
Do this or do that, is fine, pictures are fine, but it's not going to fly without a total hook-up diagram to have on this thread. I don't think we should draw it up or "finish it" for anyone. We can suggest mods when they present their entire diagram. As Kevin says we have gotten lots of word ideas, some mods, some abandoned ideas, partial diagrams....by all of us. Time to get serious. If somneone wants to put several ideas together, that's great. lets see it. Maybe Walters and 2/4 relays?

Walter: The 700 pictures you used are what we all have been using as reference. Posted/linked by Kevin.
I do think your idea has promise. "It needs relays" is not enough.

Thank you, Kevin. I kinda look at it like the Apollo 13 crew facing the CO2 issue ... the right thing to do would be to put the right filter in place. But they didn't have the right filter so they had to figure out how to make the wrong one work.

Sure, if we wanted to go the simple, easy route, we could have used the 900 and we would have been done on Page 1. But the 900 is butt ugly and I don't want to go that route. (been over this ...). No challenge. No satisfaction. BORING!

So buckle in, Zoomie! You're not done yet. No quitting!! Wank all you want but we're doing this the Marine Corps way -- Hard, miserable, wet, cold, muddy, bloody, tired and hungry (all the cool stuff!!) so square that cover, tuck in your shirt, fall back in and figure this out.

"We choose to go to the Moon, and do the other things ... not because they are easy, but because they are hard." JFK.

"Give me a fast ship for I intend to go in Harm's Way." John Paul Jones

"We're surrounded? Good. That simplifies things." Lewis Burwell Puller, LtGen, USMC

At the double time ..... fooooooooooorrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrward MARCH!!

Ceeeeeeeeeeeeeee one thirty rollin' down the strip
Marine Corps Daddy gonna take a little trip!!

I recommend using the 4 relay circuit.
To do that:
1. Attach 700 YEL wire to 6V fused. It will operate on 12V also if pilot bulbs are changed.
2. Attach 700 BLK wire as shown in 4 relay diagram. (pilot)
3. attach 700 GRN wire as shown in 4 relay diagram. (pilot)
4. Attach 700 RED wire as shown in 4 relay diagram.
5. Attach 700 WHT wire as shown in 4 relay diagram.
6. Switch has a triangle shaped, three contact. This rotates with lever movement. Bend up the bottom contact so it does not make contact. That is so the built-in pilots can work with this new circuit.
7. Flasher P wire shown in 4 relay diagram is not used.
8. Flasher X is 6V Fused.
9. Colored lines in 4 relay diagram are not meant to reflect actual colors used. Colors "named" are per 700 original Switch and Stovebolt Tech Tip.
(Any colors can be used anywhere as long as they are functionally/electrically correct).
10. Relays should be installed in sockets, then wiring will be easier. Terminal blocks may facilitate some wiring.
Relay
Socket

Ken, I'm starting to understand, but still fuzzy on how the pilot lamps are connected in the 700. I can see that the center of the sockets are connected to the green and black wires, but where do the outside socket of the bulbs connect? On the red stripe and white wires? It's hard to tell from the picture. The face of the 700 (pic grabbed from an eBay ad) says that the pilots fail to light when one of the bulbs fails. I don't understand how that's supposed to happen. And does your wiring accomplish the same thing?