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Hey Everybody,

I've got some engine issues that I need help with. First the facts: 1953 3100, 12V conversion, new wire harness, 1961 235 engine, 216 flywheel and starter (6v). Yesterday, I removed the distributor and primed the oil system. Afterward, I reinstalled the distributor and did the static timing. Today, I tried to fire the engine. After several unsuccessful attempts, the engine fired, but would not run on it's own, meaning no idle. The engine would not start without using ether. The engine would not run well at low RPM's but would run well at about 1500 RPM's. The engine would run at that RPM until I let off of the gas, then it would sputter and quit. The engine would not immediately restart, without the use of ether. After several times of starting, running, stopping, repeat, I noticed a bunch of liquid on the ground and in the tailpipe. There was what looked like water to me. There was no oil in this liquid. For this initial engine run, I have distilled water in the radiator, not anti-freeze. It seems to me that I have several different issues. The first is the engine not starting without ether. The second is not idling. Third is rough running at low RPM. Fourth is stumbling and quitting when I let off the gas. Fifth is the liquid in the tailpipe and on the ground behind the tailpipe. I'm in unfamiliar territory, so I really need all of the suggestions that I can get. Thanks in advance!

First, recheck the ignition timing. Running above idle speed and stalling at idle is a telltale sign of late ignition timing. I like to "static time"- - - -roll the engine over by pulling on the fan blades until the needle and ball aligns, or put the transmission in high gear and gently roll the truck forward until the timing marks align. Loosen the clamp below the distributor housing, turn the housing clockwise until the pointss close, then back up CCW until they just barely open. Also look for any possible vacuum leaks once the engine is running. I use an unlit acetylene torch or a Propane torch to flow a little gas along all the gasket areas- - - -manifold to head, carburetor base, etc. Finding a leak will make the engine speed up or smooth out as it draws the gas in. A cold engine will need full choke to start- - - -pull the choke knob all the way out, crank until the engine fires, then push it in about halfway during warmup.

Water from the tailpipe- - - -a little is normal- - - -a lot isn't. Good luck!
Jerry

Like HRL said, the water from the tailpipe could be normal condensation from cool/cold air and metal. Once the engine and exhaust system reach a temperature where the water will vaporize it should reduce the liquid out of the tailpipe. Be careful of the pure water in the cooling system, don't let it freeze overnight.

What carburetor are you using? The idle circuit for the carburetor is essential to run at idle/low rpm and when you let off the gas the throttle returns t idle so if there is no fuel delivery by the idle system it is just like shutting off the fuel and ability to run.

As HRL indicated choke operation for starting is important so perhaps an explanation of your starting procedure would be heldful.

I agree with the others that some water in the exhaust is normal so until you can determine if it is normal condensation or some other source concentrate on the starting/running issues.

WICruiser,

I'm still using the original style Rochester single barrel with automatic choke. It was original style equipment for the 1961 engine, although this carb is a replacement. I do, however, have two different Carter 1 barrel carbs in the basement. One is a yf 3211 with automatic choke and the other is a yf 2100 with manual choke. Both would require a rebuild, neither looks like it has ever seen any use.

Check the automatic choke to ensure that the choke valve is closing prior to attempting to start and staying closed while cranking. You could try adjusting the choke to be more severe until you resolve the starting issue. It being set more severe will make it run rich but as long as it opens partially when running at no load (not driving) it should not create any issues.

If you a low pressure air source (say 5 psi or so) remove the idle needle and blow air into the passage the screw is removed from to see if you can dislodge any blockage in the idle circuit.

How old is the fuel in the gas tank?

Six month old fuel would give all of the symptoms you listed.

Jon

The fuel is a mix of about a quart from last lawn cutting season and 3 quarts brand new in a 1 gallon temporary tank. Both had Sta-bil added. Both are ethanol free 90 octane.

What's your fuel pump situation? New? Rebuilt? Electric?

Currently it is a standard mechanical, engine driven pump. It's a couple of years old. I used it when the engine was on the run stand, so it is slightly used.

Sounds like my 235 when I first got it running. Everything on it was as it came ,except the new condenser and coil.
I got it cranked ,but it ran like you are describing. I pulled the carb apart and the bowl was filled with crud. Cleaned it good and the truck ran and idled. After a carb kit, tuneup and setting the timing with a light it ran even better . 👍👍.


I drive it just about every day now 😁😁

Did the engine start and run at idle when it was on the run stand?

Yes, but that was 4+ years ago.... It is a salvage engine from the old "cash for clunkers" program. Came out of the junkyard from a 1961 Impala.

CFC only allowed driveable vehicles 25 years old or less so that engine wasn't part of that idiotic plan.

IDK, the local junkyard was full of classic cars and trucks then. A year later and it's all modern stuff.... No matter, that's the time frame when I got the engine. It ran well on the test stand and purred at idle. I just got distracted and neglected it for a while.

Other than deposits in the carburetor the only significant thing that would have happended in the 4 years betwen when it ran and idled well on the stand and now is that you pulled the distributor to prime the oil pump. I think HRL suggesting timing was potentially the issue so perhaps you should recheck that as he recommended (if you have not already).

I'm going to be away from the garage for a couple of days. When I get back, I'm going to do that. I'll also look at the other suggestions and will likely pull the carb and clean it or replace it with one of the Carter carbs that I have. I know lots of people like the Carters better than the Rochesters. Decisions!

Do one thing at a time and see what happens. If you start changing carburetors, timing, fuel pumps, etc. you put too many variables into the equation and if it still doesn't start and run right, you're back to square one and even further away from solving the issue.

Check/set the timing and see if that works. If so, great. If not, move on to the next thing on the list, and so on.

Good advice, Otto!

Good thing- - - -those engines were required to be sabotaged- - - -oil and coolant drained and run until they locked up. Nothing but scrap iron when they wen to the crusher. I was involved in certifying some of those destruction jobs. Almost cried over some of the cars that went to the shredders!!

It occurred to me that there are some differences between the engine configurations on the run stand and in the truck. As I noted, this engine came from a car. It was mated to a cast iron powerglide transmission. On the run stand, I used the adapter plate to hold the electric starter and the flexplate was installed instead of the flywheel. When I installed the engine into the truck, I went with the original foot operated starter and original 216 flywheel. Another difference is that on the run stand, I used both a mechanical and electric fuel pump. I will still go back and redo the static timing, but am wondering if the differences noted above could be enough to make the engine perform differently. If so, should I add the electric fuel pump back right now? I do plan to use both pumps when I finish up the sheet metal work and use the real fuel tank instead of my temporary tank. As I mentioned yesterday, family matters are keeping me out of the garage for a couple of days, but it doesn't mean I can't think about it!

The fact that the engine runs well at higher rpms would tend to indicate that fuel delivery is not the problem.

Mike, As far as the switch from the car flexplate to your original 216 flywheel, the initial timing settings for both the original 216 and the 1961 235 are both listed as starting at "5 degrees BTDC". The initial timing mark "ball" and TDC indicator (triangle) on the 216 flywheel can be seen in this picture from fellow Bolter Denny Graham. I haven't had much luck finding a pic of an original 1961 flexplates timing marks, so not sure of how to show a comparison to see if the change has affected your actual initial timing starting point or not.

I would 2nd other recommendations on mechanically confirming your TDC position of the rotating assembly and looking to see where the timing marks display in your bell housing window. Posting some pics of what you have, including the flex plate if you still have it, may help to resolve at least that initial timing setting question.

I have no experience with running an electric fuel pump solo or in conjunction with the mechanical pump. Hopefully others will chime in with their info and advice.

Mike

Let me know when you are planning to play with the engine again. I can come over with my bag of tricks and see if we can make it purr......

Thanks, Sweet! That would be awesome! Maybe squeeze some soccer chat in while we're at it!

Check you PM's.

Plenty of soccer to discuss!

Current status through pics. Rotated engine by hand to get the bb close to the pointer. Number 1 cylinder marked on distributor with black line on blue tape. Close up of points.

Once you get it running, contact Jon G for one of his 200,000 hr condensers.

Forgot to add that I pulled the plugs to make rotating possible for me. Plugs 1 through 4 were covered in black soot. Plugs 5 & 6 were also black, but wet looking.

Are those points new?

No new parts on the engine. I kept everything that was on the engine while it was on the run stand on it now. The only new thing is the gas tank. Also, the transmission was not mounted to the engine while it was on the stand.

Status update: I got a little time in the garage today and redid the static timing. The timing is really close now. The engine will start right up and actually idled for maybe 10 seconds with no pedal input from me. Then is stumbled and died. Trying to restart after it stumbles and dies does not work. Restarting requires a shot of ether, then it repeats the cycle. So, redoing the static timing was a huge improvement! Now, I think there is another issue in play. It seems like fuel starvation, but I'm guessing.... Thoughts?

Sounds like your carburetor isn't up to the task. That, or the fuel pump is shot.

After it conks out, look down the carb throat and work the throttle manually. Do you see squirts of gas every time you goose the throttle by hand? If not, your accelerator pump is bad.

Hook a hose up to the carburetor and put it in a gasoline can or something and let gravity feed the carburetor. See if it runs, then. If you have an electric pump , try that.

Accelerator pump is bad, or the carburetor needs some work. Start with testing fuel delivery of the fuel pump first. Its easier than opening up the carburetor and staring at the insides of it and not 'seeing' anything wrong with it.

If I recall when it was run on the stand you have both an electric and the mechanical pump but now you only have hte mechanical pump. That may be a clue and a reason to put the electric pump back into the mix.

What volume and pressure is the fuel pump producing? Like the motto Sun used to put on all their equipment- - - -"We Test Not Guess!"
Jerry

Jerry,

How do I test the fuel pump? What equipment would I need and how would I set it up? Thanks!

If the engine won't idle for 30 seconds on the fuel in the carburetor, fix that first. Then plumb the fuel line at the carb inlet into a 1 quart or larger catch container. A good pump should produce at least a pint of fuel in 30 seconds at idle speed. It should develop around 2 to 3 pounds of pressure, with the carb inlet line deadheaded into a gauge, and hold the pressure for a short time after the engine is shut down. It should also produce at least 10 inches of vacuum at the inlet side of the pump, and hold that reading for a short time after shutdown. That tests the condition of the diaphragm, and the inlet and outlet check valves. Failing any or all of these tests means the pump should be rebuilt or replaced.

Just about all local parts stores sell a combination vacuum/pressure gauge with an assortment of adapter fittings. Every shop needs one!

www.ebay.com/itm/171065439666?

Jerry

Status update:

I added the electric fuel pump to the truck. I disconnected the fuel line to the carb and activated the electric pump. I got good fuel flow into a bottle. This does not shed any light on the condition of the mechanical pump, but I can pull the fuse and test the mechanical pump later. I was aiming at getting the engine running. I bought a rebuild kit for my Carter 3211 and installed it. I then swapped out the Rochester for the Carter and the truck started and ran. However, as soon as the truck started to warm up, it began belching white smoke from the exhaust. It was awful. However, it did not stop me from moving the truck under it's own power! The very first time that I've ever been able to do that! (Video link attached.) While the Rochester was off of the engine, I decided to disassemble it and clean it, in the hopes that it would work again. Turns out that the needle was stuck in the seat and blocked the gas from entering the bowl. So I got it all cleaned and reassembled and swapped out the Carter for the Rochester. This time, it took gas from the pump and filled the bowl. I looked down the throat and worked the throttle and saw it squirt gas! So I fired up the engine with the Rochester and it also ran and idled! Once again, however, it started to warm up and began belching white smoke. I checked the number 5 and 6 spark plugs and both were wet, again. I think I'll do a compression check tomorrow, but am kinda down about the amount of white smoke being emitted from the tailpipe.... Thoughts/suggestions?

smokey

Was it white or bluish? White is usually steam from coolant. Blue smoke is oil.