The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area Driveline Need help

Just got the engine running ok and changed out tranny fluid. Was ready for first time moving it out of the garage. In gear and released the clutch and nothing. Now looking at pullin drive train.

As a young man I worked on my cars non stop but nothing pre 1955.

Anyone have some good references for pulling a tranny. That and that torque tube which I’ve never worked on before

Thanks for any help.

Doug,

A Shop Manual is your best friend as a starting point for getting into unfamiliar territory.

If you don't have a hard copy (some originals and lots of reprints are available for sale from many sources), you can always access this 1954 Truck Shop Manual and use the information in there to guide you through what you need to get done.

Folks will chime in here with other helpful questions, suggestions, and info, but a Shop Manual is a necessity you should really invest in.

Dan

Absolutely right on. A shop manual will answer most questions. The first thing I always do after buying any old vehicle is to buy a shop manual.

Concur with the shop manual advice.

In the meantime, though, there are a few basic things you can trouble shoot (Because we often overlook the obvious, let's check the easy stuff first before getting too crazy).

1. Check the shift linkage to make sure its connected to the transmission and adjusted. If the truck is new to you, is there actually a transmission in it? Sorry to ask a seemingly dumb question, but .... we can assume that when you bought the truck, you actually checked it completely out, but we all know that even basic assumptions need to be verified in troubleshooting scenarios ... ;
2. Make sure the joints in the torque tube are connected;
and 3. Make sure the axle shafts are actually installed in the rear axle (pull the hubcaps off and look at the hub. If the axles have been pulled, it will be instantly obvious)

So, the engine is running (and the transmission is the original one with the column-mounted shifter i.e., the "3 on the tree?") but when you shift into a gear and release the clutch, nothing happens? Have you *ever* driven this truck? If yes, go back over what you've done to it (and disconnected) to see if you forget something ...

With the engine not running, will it go into a gear (i.e., to keep it from rolling)? Or have you just been using a chock or the parking brake? If it does go into a gear, will it keep the truck from rolling? If the truck *does* roll, is it rolling freely or turning the engine over?

Check the shift linkage to make sure it's connected and not loose. When you manipulate it to change gears, does it feel like it's actually moving things inside the tranny? Loose/worn column-shifter linkage is a very common issue.

If that's all ok, then when you shift into a gear, does it feel like something is happening (like the clutch is disengaging and the tranny is starting to turn gears, but its not actually transmitting torque to the rear axle?

If it feels like things are working like they should but nothing is moving, then check the rear hubs (or check those first -- it's probably going to be the easiest to rule out)

If any of these things turns up a clue then you know where to start when your shop manual arrives.

If none of this turns up a clue, then you know what *isn't* the problem and you will know that you probably need to use the shop manual and have a few experts render some assistance to determine your issue.

Maybe one of our experts has something else easy to check, also. I'm just a firm believer in checking the easy stuff first . Hopefully you have a forehead slapper issue here (i.e., easy and simple). IF you do find something simple to fix and get things moving ... Make sure your brakes work before venturing too far from the garage Getting the truck to go is great but getting it to stop is pretty important, too.

Good luck with it!!
John

Check for a broken axle shaft. Jack up one rear wheel at a time, put the transmission in any gear, and try to turn the raised wheel. It should not move. If either wheel can be turned, try pulling out on the wheel and tire. If an axle is broken, the wheel, brake drum, and axle shaft will move out several inches. Check both sides. It's a quick, easy test that can avoid a lot of unnecessary disassembly. Broken spider gears in the rear end can cause the same problem, but those will usually make some expensive noises as the driveshaft turns.
Jerry

Thanks for the ideas guys.
I have a shop manual btw. Just have never dealt with this enclosed drive shaft. Where’s the unjoints. Joke.
I’d forgotten about the rear axle check. I’ve forgotten all the things I’d learned as a young kid working in my dads garage. You jogged some memories Hotrod.
I’m working through my checklist very similar to what John said. His had a couple not on my list.

The fellow I got the truck from said the last time he drove it that it had locked up on him and he had it towed home. That was the last time it moved. I already did a quick visual on the tranny and was going to hold off on the rear end until I got it to move. So I’ll do the rear end check first.

Just did the rear end check and it failed. It also made the same klunkity klunk noise I mentioned in another thread.
Well at least I have a starting point. Later today I’ll drain it and remove the inspection cover and have a look.

Now it's time to drop the rear cover on the diff and see if the ring & pinion gears are turning when the clutch is engaged with the transmission in gear and the engine running. It's beginning to sound like you've got a broken driveshaft or u joint (there's only one, at the front of the torque tube).
Jerry

Is there a drain plug besides the filler hole. Couldn’t find it in the shop manual either.

Remove one of the short bolts holding on the differential cover. The holes go all the way through. If there is a lot of sludge, you may need to poke a bamboo skewer in there but it will drain after a while.

I removed the bottom three and let it drain.

I think it is broken. Now I need to find a video of the process. If I remember right I have to remove the axils first then work on the gears.
Looks like more tools to buy shortly.

Fist pic is what I took out of the bottom of the housing. Second pic shows a chunk out of the gear housing. No telling what else I’ll find on disassembly.

Now might be a good time to change gear ratio for a better road ride.

Anyone have some resources to check for rear end parts.

OK- - - -the spider gears are toast, for sure. Spend a few minutes' work with a die grinder to smooth out that jagged edge on the carrier, and unless there's some more serious damage that's not visible, it could be reused. If you're interested in acquiring some usable bits and pieces for that assembly, send me a PM. I'm located near I-65 and the Alabama/Tennessee state line.
Jerry

I'd be a bit leery about that differential housing if the whole spider gear fell out. That means the spider shaft must have broken or something else gave out for it to fall out.
It might be easier to look for a complete pumpkin.torque tube assembly. At a minimum, I would replace all the bearings and the ring & pinion as well as the spider and side gears. It would be easier in the long run to change out the R&P with a taller gear set without having gather up replacements for the parts that are suspect.

Not being familiar with rear ends like you old pros a lot of what you said when over my head.

In the meantime first problem to solve is ring gear is locked up so I can’t rotate it to get at the rest of it. Ran out of gloves last night digging metal pieces out of it so quick run to store then back at.

A magnet on a stick works better than gloves.

Ha. Only if you can find it when you need it. Besides gloves and brake cleaner a magnet is on the list if I can’t find mine in the next couple minutes. 🙏

Another reason to look for a replacement differential housing.
If you can push the axles inward to release the C-clips, then remove them, you can unbolt the differential housing/torque tube assembly and pull the whole thing out the front. You'll need to do that anyway to rebuild it if you go that way.

Here's an exploded view of what you're working on to help with nomenclature. The axle c-clips I mentioned are called locks in the figure. But you'll need to get the spacer around the spider gear shaft out before you can push the axles in. But then again your spider gears are already out, so you should be able to just pull the axle shafts.

[ON EDIT]Take a look at your picture that I added a note to below. This piece may be what's locking things up. It looks out of place to me. But it's been a while since I had my differential out of the truck.

Make sure you also check the axle shafts themselves for any evidence of twisting or any spline damage. John

I’m trying to figure out how to get to everything atm.

Update. Can’t get the gears to move. Just back and forth cluck clunk. Of course the carrier stopped in the wrong direction so can’t get to the clips to release the axles.

Oh. Got a better look inside and ring gear is toast also.

Is next step to drop the torque tube to be sure it’s not binding at the ujoint.

Of course, the pin/bolt that holds the spider gear shaft in is on the other end. So getting the axle shaft clips out is going to be tough.

Now I"m wondering how that basically intact spider gear wound up in the bottom of the case.

Do you have a cutting torch?

No I don’t have a torch. Yet 😁 but I found a set of used spider gears on eBay and bought them. I can get a ring and pinion from a couple different places so getting it apart is first priority.

I’m wondering if I can get a pick in there to get the clips out.

If not I guess I need to pull the torque tube. I need to check the u joint at some point anyway.

Anyone have any words of enlightenment to share now would be a good time.

The axles have to be pushed toward the center to get the clips out of the recesses in the side gears, so a pick won't work for you. And you won't be able to get the torque tube/differential housing out without removing the axles. It's a big interlocking puzzle. That's why I suggested a torch to cut the spider shaft and get the spacer out of the way.

Good find on the spider gears. I suspect you'll be needing side gears as well. That's why I suggested tracking down a replacement axle.

It's possible there's something wedged in between the ring and pinion that's preventing it from moving. Maybe a BFH would help. Since the ring gear is toast already you can't hurt it anymore by beating the snot out of it to get it to turn. Helps with the frustration level too.

It looks like that complete center section is toast- - - - -Try removing the two bearing saddles to see if you can create some slack somewhere. They're held on by the two big bolts on each side of the ring gear. Just keep up with the position to the saddle clamps on the remote possibility the center section can be reused. Identify them with some center punch marks, side to side and top/bottom so they can be reinstalled in the proper orientation.

If the ring gear isn't turning, the clunk noises are probably coming from a broken U joint.
Jerry

Jerry's idea of loosening the bearing clamps is a good one. It may let the differential move back enough to let it rotate.

Do you have the transmission in neutral when you're trying to rotate the ring gear? If not, then it's going to be tough to turn unless you can also rotate the engine. Be sure you're in neutral and try again.

Given that your internal parts are all toast you would probably be best to just remove the whole thing and install something else.

How difficult would it be to convert to an open driveline setup from a 1955-59 vehicle? I realize that it would involve swapping the whole assembly from the bellhousing back, but those parts are available, and they're a few years newer that what's in there now. Isn't the later gear ratio usually a 3.90, also?
Jerry

You could leave the transmission in gear and get a helper to bump the starter with the ignition off to see if the carrier changes position.
Jerry

Lossened the bearing clamps but didn't get a lot of play and its still locked. I can rock it back and forth about one tooth worth but that is it..
Would dropping the u joint be the next step.. after I bump the starter to see if anything moves..

It's probably time to drop the entire rear end and start looking for a replacement. Either acquire another torque tube setup, or convert to an open driveline. I've got the complete running gear from a 58 GMC 1/2 ton if you're interested- - - -transmission, driveshaft, springs, and rear end. PM or call.
Jerry

Big shout out to you Jerry... in reverse it turned the carriage around so I can get to the set bolt and pin... I'm eating lunch but will be trying to take it apart in the next hour or so and will follow up with results... Small victory for this backyard mechanic..

It slid right out when I got bolt removed. Got the other gear out. Now we know where all those broken teeth came from.

Axles look good. Drums look new just dirty and dead bugs. Brakes look like they were done recently.

Now how to get the carriage and ring and pinion out. Shop manual covers removal of the axles but not the carrier.

To get the carrier out, mark the bearing caps and the housing, as Jerry suggested and pry the carrier out of the housing. You MAY have to pull the whole assembly out the front with the torque tube if there's a clearance issue with the rear of the axle housing and the ring gear. You'll probably want to work on the rebuild on the bench anyway instead of under the truck. You'll need to turn the driveshaft during assembly to set up the pattern on the ring and pinion. I don't even think you can get the pinion dept setting tool in place unless you pull the assembly out.

The shop manual covers the whole thing. The procedure starts on page 4-6.

What am I marking the bearing caps for. Is it so they go back in just like they came out.

Answer is yes , Mark which one is "left" and which one is the "right"...

Yes, mark for up and down as well. A single punch mark on the top of the left side cap and on its location and two punch marks on the top of the right side cap and its home is what I'd do.

It's a torque tube setup, right? The only way to get the pinion gear out is to remove the complete rear end assembly from the vehicle, loosen the three setscrews just behind the torque tube, and use a block of hardwood and a BFH to drive the driveshaft and the pinion gear out of the housing toward the back. The pinion gear and the driveshaft come out as an assembly. You might be able to do it with the axle housing in the vehicle, but it's definitely the hard way!
Jerry

I’m going to have to do it the hard way I’m afraid to say. Don’t have the room. If this keeps up I may have to reorganize the garage and get rid of some stuff.

Wait a minute- - - -now that the axle shafts are out, the torque tube and center housing can be unbolted. The banjo housing, brakes, etc. can stay put! You'll be dealing with a torque tube 6 feet long that can't be separated from the center housing, but you won't need to fight with the whole banjo housing, brake backing plates, etc. A couple of sawhorses and some big C clamps to keep the torque tube steady at waist level will be all that's needed.

Be sure to support the truck at the frame rails, NOT the axle tubes, on jack stands before you start unbolting the front of the torque tube. The weight of the vehicle will cause the front end of the torque tube to slam down violently unless the rear end is hanging free of the weight of the vehicle before you unbolt the U joint.
Jerry

Thanks jerry. I’ll move the jack stands to the frame.

Can I go ahead and remove the carriage bearing caps and remove the carriage first?