The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area Paint and Body Shop Newbie questions: Rust and refurb

New to resto's and these trucks as Ive recently acquired and started my project.
Removed floor liner and insulation to discover some rust building under the underlayment do to moisture trapped.
Not cancerous yet that I can see, but definitely more than just light surface rust. Rust particles and chunks came up with insulation when removed.

Best way to go about treating and repairing? Thoughts?

Pictures for reference if helpful. Thanks as always

I would take the transmission cover off and put it in a garbage can with some citric acid from the bulk store after scraping the loose rust off ,cost you about 5bucks soak for a day or two depending on your mix . The rest of the floor break out the wire wheel and a few discs and after you are satisfied with the clean up put your favourite rust stopper and paint.

I'm going to guess that after you wire wheel the floor like Kevinski suggested, you'll find some pinholes. You may want to cut those areas out and patch them, but if it's fairly sound, you could possibly seal the holes with something like JB Weld. But I would sandblast those areas at least before trying JB Weld. You'll have to use your judgement on whether to weld in new sheet metal.The floor is a weak spot for rust as that floor mat backing holds moisture.

I don't see any holes big enough to sling a dead cat through. That's always good.
What is your long term goal for the truck? Daily driver? Show stopping gem? Somewhere in between?
It will not be fun wire wheeling all of the rust from the floor and nearby rusty areas. Sandblasting is no joy either.
If it's going to be a daily driver, I recommend that you remove all of the paint and filth and any chunks of rust, vacuum or blow it clean, then treat it with Ospho. This product will convert the ferrous oxide (rust) to ferrous phosphate which is inert and stops the rust process. The process may leave a white powdery dust in the pitted areas which you will need to remove. The white powdery dust is a byproduct of the process. The best way to remove it a day later is to use a scotchbtite pad wet with Ospho. It will clean it right up. I then wipe it down with acetone and prime and paint.

If :
- the metal is thin after removing all rust
- you are striving for a good driver as opposed to a show car
- you are not inclined or able to cut & weld

You could laminate fiberglass wetted with epoxy resin over a broad area. Mask the area , work the resin with a plastic squeegee for uniformity, 2 lams of 8 oz.cloth applied in one app.

( JBWELD was mentioned- that is a form of epoxy.)
Polyester resin costs less , but epoxy resin will bond more securely.

This advice maybe looked at with skepticism by those who are committed to welding, but I believe that glass reinforcement is a viable option. I have had good results with it.

@Waveski: Have you had good success with fiberglass mat staying bonded long term? I have tried doing metal repair like that before and always had it delaminate after a year or two. Any idea what I might have done wrong?

I will second patching small areas with jbweld. I have done that on bodywork and been quite happy with the results long term. I like to spread out the mixed epoxy, then put blue painters tape over it and a flat weight on that. Makes the top surface have a smooth/level finish without making a mess.

A previous owner used fiberglass to repair the floor in my truck. It has to be well over 15 years old. Looking at the bottom of the cab shows that the rust damage covered by the fiberglass was not extensive. Small holes here and there. Since it's under the felt and rubber it doesn't look bad at all.

I will second and third some of the suggestions. If it is going to be a driver, you could waste a lot of time and money putting in new metal, especially if you are not experienced. I have become a big fan of two methods. For larger areas like a floor I have had good results with rust converters. Remove loose rust the best you can and make sure to get in seams good. Like Kevinski said, remove the transmission cover so you can get the in-between places. If the part is small or manageable enough I like the soak method. There are several options. Citric acid is good. I personally use vinegar. Go to the bulk store and get it by the gallon or larger. White or cider either one work. Get the cheapest. Let the parts soak for 3-4 days. When you take them out of the vinegar your first reaction will be it has done nothing. Be patient, don't panic. Rinse and wash the piece(s) under running water with a brush or sponge. The rust will rinse away revealing clean grey metal ready for prep and paint. Part of the prep is to make sure you wash all the vinegar or whatever solution you use completely off. It will flash rust on the surface if you don't do something to protect it the same day. This is a lot cleaner and more efficient than the wire wheel. Sometimes the wire wheel is your only choice but I avoid it anytime I can. For containers to soak in I went to the home store and bought the cheapest various size plastic containers I could get that would allow the items to lay flat and require the least amount of vinegar to cover them. I saw a neat trick where a guy used a piece of PVC conduit with a cap on one end to soak a hood prop. Long piece but using the conduit just big enough to slide the piece in saved him a lot of vinegar. Also, I poor the vinegar back into the plastic jug and use it for the next rusty piece. I have not figured out how many times I can use it before it looses its acidity and becomes ineffective.

That might have been me. I also put a small ball valve on the bottom so I could drain it without making a big mess pouring it out the top. You can see the 2" PVC pipe zip tied to the leg of my work table in the attached pic. But I've been using Evaporust.

[on edit] Another trick for a flat piece is to lay some lumber on the floor and then some heavy plastic sheet (I save stuff like old shower curtains) to make a flat basin that will just cover the piece (like the transmission cover). I've done that on similar items.

Another trick for the floor would be to take an old terry towel, soak it in vinegar (or your favorite derusting solution) and lay it over the floor, keeping it wet for several days.

On the fiberglass trick, if there are pinholes, that helps keep it bonded to the floor by "keying" it in. But the metal should be relatively rust-free. Also, instead of polyester resin, you can use epoxy resin with the fiberglass cloth.

I have used on a winter beater the magnetic paint I think it was chassis saver paint .you put your fibreglass cloth over were you want it and paint over with the paint and let it soak in and it had worked very well even though I did not think it would I took a few grommets out and after it dried cut out the holes to put the grommets in and I had the little cutouts for a while to show how it had worked .

Fibonachu asked about the durability of a fiberglass patch. I have had polyester based repairs fail over time - but never have I had an epoxy/ fiberglass failure.

klhanson mentioned epoxy as an option; the difference in adhesion is significant- epoxy really bonds, much better than polyester. Polyester on polyester bods quite well, but when bonding different materials epoxy is quite superior.

Everyone seems to agree that JBWELD bonds securely to metal surfaces.
JBWELD is a structurally reinforced epoxy.
Fiberglass wetted out with epoxy resin is also a structurally reinforced epoxy.

I've had paint pitting from using JB Weld on body work. It was a plastic fairing. So no fillers with metal in them. If the rust pitting is bad just use a body filler, they have body filler with fiberglass as well for extra strength.
I would never use actual fiberglass over steel, to patch anything.

I would not put body filler on a floor to cover rust pits.

Truckrolet-

Why not?
Epoxy reinforced with glass fiber is much more durable than body filler. Then there’s flex- a glass/epoxy laminate will move with the slight flex of the sheet metal.

With this issue, it does not matter what level of resto or the use of the truck. You gotta have a good solid floor. The first step is to leave the trans cover on but take off the gas pedal. Aggressively wire wheel the whole floor down to bare metal. Survey the floor for thinness and holes. Report back with pics and description for suggestions. There is only one way to fix floor rust out and that is with welding a patch or three. A pin hole will always have a larger thin area around it.
The trans cover can be removed after, for more wire wheel under and repair if necessary.
Always wear eye and face protection.

And this , ladies and gentlemen, is what makes the world go ‘round.

Welding patch panels in is *a* way to fix holes. For high-budget restorations, I would even agree that it is the preferred way.

That said, there are a lot of other options that are just fine for everyday repair and personal use. Many people don't have the equipement or skills to weld in new panels but are perfectly capable of patching holes with various forms of epoxy. I have 25+ year old JB Weld floor repairs that are holding up just fine.

As long as you get a good bond, fiberglass can be used as a structual member without any issues. It is regularly used for structures in marine environments where metals will corrode.

I have watched a lot of Utube known pros, including some on here. I have never seen them repair with anything but welding. As usual, it's good to supply all opinions to someone. I know it ruffles feathers to say this is the "only" way. I will explain: there are lot's of discussions on here about all kinds of things. As an example, jerry and I disagree on 6V and generators, I like 12V conversion and alternator and give a list of why. Neither of us is right. Both ways work. There is no structural, no rust, no budget issues, no extra tools to buy. Not much skill or learning curve in our difference of opinions. It's electrical junk. We just campaign for our preference.

I assume a person with rust issues wants the tried and true best way to fix. Yes it takes welding, None of us knew how to weld when we started. Mig can be learned fairly quickly. Many, many post on Mig welding sheet metal in Stovebolt. If you have a project truck, there will be plenty of rust repair to do. Not to mention other non vehicle welding. A used Mig will not break the bank. A 120V is plenty good enough.
Yes, there are budget ways to mitigate rust out. You can put a lump of some kind of compound or fiber over or inder it that may stick up lumpy. That way takes thickness to be viable. Fiberglass reinforced filler and epoxy filler are used over a welded repair all the time in an effort to prevent cracking or reaction to finishes.

I don't want to get into structure of other ways than metal. As a mechanical design engineer, I am a metal guy. We are not repairing a boat or are we a quick and dirty body shop. We are not trying to save money on rust repair. Buy a welder or get someone to weld. There's ONLY ONE way to fix rusty metal. Everybody knows that. You can invent other ways and give stories about how long they last. But what is the point? Avoiding welding? Avoiding the right way? Shlop around with gluing rather than a weld? Goodness me. If you just want to "plug" a hole, get some of Phil Swiffs Flex Seal "As Seen On TV". As you can see even Carl doesn't screw road signs to the floor anymore. He welds. Hi Carl ....just kidding

It is up to anyone to do what they think is best. I will say that......Robert?......Robert?.........

So we are in agreement. Welding is not the only way. It is the way that you (and many others) consider the best.

But "best", "sufficient", and "only" are three completely different things. Precision in language is particularly critical in writing.

Last paragraph, sentence no. 6 and 7. Reading comprehesion is critical.

Many ways to plug a hole from leaking water, smells, rats, air...... if that is the goal.

If you want to be pedantic, your last paragraph does not have 6 sentances.

In this case, I will refer you to your previous paragraph:


Yes, it does take thickness to be effective. And in the case of someone wanting to fix a pinhole in a way that maintains its structural integrity and prevents it from spreading, who cares?

For a professional restoration, welding in a panel is the correct solution. For a daily driver, a floor that is not perfectly smooth on both sides is just fine.

The cost of the welder is only one of many considerations. Having a place to weld, getting replacement panels, the time/material cost investment to learn how to not make it worse all add up. Alternatively a $5 tube of jbweld and an afyernoon will make it just as safe.

You can make as many straw man arguments as you like about junk fixes that someone could attempt, but that does not change the *fact* that there are durable, safe, and sufficient solutions other than welding.

Had you said that welding is the *best* way, I would not have disagreed.

At this point, I think we are just repeating the same argument. I suggest we both walk away and let the reader draw their own conclusions.

For the record, Mr Bartamos , you did say
“ There’s only ONE WAY to fix rusty metal “
That is factually untrue. You may reasonably say that welding is your preferred method and that welding is a proven effective method, but it is not the only way.

Your opinion has significant credibility given your expertise, but you compromise the expression of your opinion by using terms like “shlop around with gluing” and “quick and dirty body shop”. By using such language you cast aspersions on anyone who uses methods other than those on the Bartamos approved list - which is unfair.

I am damned good with fiberglass. While I expect that you are expert with welding , it is an unfortunate fact that there is an abundance of booger welds in this world. (My truck was rife with them ; they have been eliminated) Good welding is good. Bad welding is bad. Bad fiberglass work is bad. I don’t perform or tolerate bad fiberglass work.

Welding new metal into place makes for solid repair. No one questions that. No sense getting torqued out over someone who considers an alternative to welding to suit there needs.

No one is forcing you to shlop glue your truck.

Waveski, I appreciate and respect your view. None of my comments are aimed at you. They focus on staying with welding. I also give you credit for finding the 6th sentence in the last paragraph. The United States educational community states that it takes three sentences to create a paragraph. Otherwise it's a sentence. Anyway I confirm what you said that I did say. ONE WAY. Any other way would be the wrong way. Although A WAY to plug a hole if that is the goal.
It's not MY approved list, it is the only way I've seen professionals do it and I don't see a reason for any other way. Like, no reason. If it's not right what is it? the answer is ....wrong. Suffice is not an answer. It is a poor excuse in this particular case. Sorry to cast aspersions. That was not may intention. I see it can be seen that way. Was trying to give examples of Suffice/sufficient. Trying to say buying a welder and learning to weld or find a welding person is the same effort as "other" ideas and is the practice of most folks. I want a self described newbie to start off right.
Not here to argue sentence structure or paragraphs or spelling when a person can see what I'm saying quite clearly.

I did not know anyone was repairing rust out with fiberglass. I did search the internet under "rust repair with fiberglass". First five said "budget" repair. One said Redneck Budget. Their words not mine.

Hey bartamos, you forgot to leave a space between the paragraphs in your last reply.

Oooops I don't know when one thought stops and another starts. I just do what the voices in my head tell me to do....and there is a person following me all the time to see that I listen. He ducks down when I point him out to somebody. It's really tuff. Thanks Otto... Gotta go.. Pill time

Hahaha!

...........and I'm not pedantic, I'm Lutheran.

As I said above, multiple people have expressed views on different solutions and nothing new is really being said at this point.

I recommend that everyone drop this argument and move on. Future readers can look at the reasons that have already been given and draw their own conclusions.

Ok by me.

We could have left it at
“And that , ladies and gentlemen, is what makes the world go ‘round.”

I feel inclined to put my position on this subject in context - with no intention of being contentious.

I am not a life long truck/car guy. I dabbled in my youth , then get the itch as a retired guy. I got a truck that was a modified mess. The truck needed work , I needed help. I do not possess the full skill set required to make my truck roadworthy and respectable.
So - Lots of need , limited skills - very limited budget. Challenging criteria. I wanted to do as much of the work myself as I could , for reasons of limited budget and to enhance the sense of making the truck "mine". I think most of you can relate to that last part.
I got a lot of help where I needed it. My welding skills are minimal , and I lack the equipment. Someone else welded a lot of new steel into my cab - firewall , & floors , pretty much total replacement. Needed to be done. Fenders , doors , tailgate --- these were parts I could remove and work on myself. The entire box now that I think about it. My wife's car did not fit in the garage for an entire year while I worked on those body parts. ( She was very patient ...) While I lack welding skills I am real good with fiberglass. The rear fenders were rather ventilated , now they look great. Solid too. I get lots of compliments.

My rattle can driver will never be a show car , and that's fine with me. It is a great ride and I really enjoy the smiles and questions I get everywhere I go. The resale value means nothing to me. My kids will fight over my truck after I'm gone- they want it. So does my wife. Maybe they can take turns.

In summary , a good argument can be made that steel replacement via welding is superior to fiberglass/epoxy repair. That doesn't mean , however , that epoxy and fiberglass are not useful in body repair.
Kind of like blacktop vs concrete for your driveway - Concrete has it's advantages , but blacktop sure beats dirt and mud.