The ‘51 3600 with original 216 has finally made it to the top of the to-do list. Last Fall I started hearing a slight knock from the middle of the engine. After spending quite a bit of time trying to find a easy reason for a new noise I just parked the truck.
The truck had 43,000 documented miles when I bought it 9 years ago. I checked the rod clearances then and they were just in spec. Now at almost 60,000 miles it’s time I think to pull a few spacer tabs.
This morning after draining the oil and letting it sit for a hour or so I strained the last pint through a white paper towel. No sparkles. And that’s good!
Currently the pan is pulled and letting the dripping stop then I’ll break out the.001-.003 plasta gauge and see what I find.
Plan is to check all clearances and use strip of .002 feeler gauge as a go/no gauge to set all the clearances.
Hard to believe I know but this really isn’t my favorite thing to do.
Adjusting mains should pick up the oil pressure. Did mine about 35-40K after a rebuild. Miserable job from underneath. I'm convinced oil could drip for years after pulling the pan. Only question is which eye will get the first drip.
Matthew 6:33
1952 Chevy 1/2-ton 3100 Late '55 235/SM420/torque tube 3.55 Dalton Highway survivor (using original 216) www.truckwithaheart.com
My sympathies on the dripping oil... it never ends. Read the manual on adjusting rod clearances. Based on what I remember doing and reading, 0.002 is too loose. At 003 they start to knock. I recall something like "a light tap with an 8 oz. hammer should just move the rod sideways," or words to that effect. I believe that's why they specified 20wt oil for summer and 20/20W for winter; and for really cold temperatures adding some kerosene. That was long before multigrade oil. An engine can also lose oil pressure to worn cam bearings.
1951 3800 1-ton "Earning its keep from the get-go" In the DITY Gallery 1962 261 (w/cam, Fenton headers, 2 carbs, MSD ign.), SM420 & Brown-Lipe 6231A 3spd aux. trans, stock axles & brakes. Owned since 1971.
I like to use a narrow strip of .0015" brass shim stock between the crankshaft and the rod or main cap instead of plastigauge, and adjust the shim pack until the crank can be turned a little with a moderate amount of effort. Remove the shim, and move it to the next bearing- - - - -"rinse and repeat". If necessary, you can split the difference on the adjusting shims- - - -one less on one side than the other to fine tune the clearance. Have fun! Jerry
"It is better to be silent and be thought a fool than to speak and eliminate all doubt!" - Abraham Lincoln Cringe and wail in fear, Eloi- - - - -we Morlocks are on the hunt! There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self. - Ernest Hemingway Love your enemies and drive 'em nuts!
Uneven number of shims on each side is talked about in the service manual. If you do that it says to make the lesser number of shims on the same side of the engine.
Kevin 1951 Chevy 3100 work truck Follow this saga in Project Journal Photos 1929 Ford pickup restored from the ground up. | 1929 Ford Special Coupe (First car) Busting rust since the mid-60's If you're smart enough to take it apart, you darn well better be smart enough to put it back together.
Progress over the past couple days. I wasted quite a bit of time and plastigage on the first two rods (6&5). Checked clearances first, then removed shims, checked again, removed more shims checked. OK time to speed up the process.
I’d been checking on a dry crank with a clean dry rod cap. Temp in the shop was low 50’s but that big mass of iron was 45 F. Seems it’s recommended in less than shirt sleeve weather to very lightly oil the crank when using plastigage After adding a couple drops of oil the plastigage spread out, flattening as it should. I suspect giving a more accurate reading.
I started pulling one .002 shim from each side of the remaining 4 rods and checking. In each case this gave a clearance between .0015 and .0017. The .0017 was a calibrated eye ball reading since the paper gage goes from.0015 to .002.
The crank looks as good as a crank should. The rod caps looked good to my inexperienced babbitt bearing eye. #1 rod cap is the most seasoned looking. Images below.
I was expecting to see one rod with more wear to account for the warm engine slight knock. Since pre adjustment all the clearances were fairly uniform between.003 and .004 I don’t expect to see a change. But I’m hoping.
Someone would have to threaten me with disfiguring mayhem before I'd ever use a piece of Plastigauge on a Babbit bearing again. Checking clearance with a narrow piece of .0015" shim stock is faster and much more accurate. Jerry
"It is better to be silent and be thought a fool than to speak and eliminate all doubt!" - Abraham Lincoln Cringe and wail in fear, Eloi- - - - -we Morlocks are on the hunt! There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self. - Ernest Hemingway Love your enemies and drive 'em nuts!
I like to use a narrow strip of .0015" brass shim stock between the crankshaft and the rod or main cap instead of plastigauge, and adjust the shim pack until the crank can be turned a little with a moderate amount of effort.
Dayum!
Why did I never think of that - once you know it, it seems so obvious. Not a huge fan of plastigauge ether, but that's all I ever used. That brass shim method seems so much better.
moparguy That looks good,I have always used just a square piece of feeler gauge .0015 or .002 deburr on oh 600 wet or dry. Tlghten it up just see if it will move,or is locked go from there. Mine done in 82 still OK done a lot of work since then.
klhansen I saw that too,those rods don't know what their buddies are doing,if the clearence is close they'll run. What's really important is to NOT rod it if you get hung up,which was a much more likely scenario in the gravel road days. The mud holes used to get bigger than a truck,you'd have to hit em to get thru !!
One thing to keep in mind when adjusting rod bearings is where the wear is on a rod journal. When the crank and piston are at the top of the compression stroke and the air/fuel mixture is ignited, there is a tremendous pressure put on the bearing and journal. This pressure is greatly reduced as the piston travels down the cylinder. This means that the majority of wear on the rod journal is in about one quarter of the total journal. If you check clearance with the rod at the bottom of the stroke, where it is easiest to work on, you will get a false reading/adjustment of the bearing. You may end up with a too tight of an adjustment. One should check clearance with the rod journal up near the pan rail, or at the very least make sure you can shake the rod side to side during a full rotation of the engine.
Dave, thanks for the info. I didn’t check all rods at the bottom of their stroke, some yes. I’ll check lateral movement at the pan rail on all.
Now For The Rest of The Story.
Back on January 3rd, 2016 I installed a new Best Gasket rear main rope seal using a Sneaky Pete tool. Had pure heck getting the top seal in place. Did all the tricks. Loosen crank (a lot) lubed seal, and others things I’ve forgot. On the bottom seal I tapped and rolled it in, when sure it was seated, cut the ends a bit proud. Put it all together…….had a small leak. But better than it was. Over the years the leaks gotten worse.
When the rear main cap was pulled today to check clearances, the crank seal is about 3/8” short on one end in the rear main cap. Guess I know why it leaks.
The other end is about 3/16th proud, it fits up into the block where the seal has pulled back.
Ron, when I replaced my rear main seal, I loosened everything up and pried the crank away from the block. Still a PITA to install the upper seal section. If I ever have to do it again, I'll go ahead and pull the crank completely out. I missed the opportunity to do that when I had the timing cover off to replace gaskets and seal there.
Kevin 1951 Chevy 3100 work truck Follow this saga in Project Journal Photos 1929 Ford pickup restored from the ground up. | 1929 Ford Special Coupe (First car) Busting rust since the mid-60's If you're smart enough to take it apart, you darn well better be smart enough to put it back together.
Dayum! Why did I never think of that - once you know it, it seems so obvious. Not a huge fan of plastigauge ether, but that's all I ever used. That brass shim method seems so much better
That's one advantage to being older than dirt- - - - -or at least almost older than Plastigauge. I learned to fit bearings from a bunch of guys who were fixing cars in the 1920's and 30's, and they were a LOT older than Plastigauge!
Regarding the journals that are worn oval- - - - -don't most service manuals recommend MEASURING the crankshaft journal with a micrometer, and having acceptable limits for "out of round" and "taper"???????? I've also been able to coax a few more miles out of a worn crankshaft before regrinding with a long piece of emery cloth and a "shoeshine" action to get it closer to round, and then draw-filing the rod cap to get the clearance close to right after running out of shims. Jerry
"It is better to be silent and be thought a fool than to speak and eliminate all doubt!" - Abraham Lincoln Cringe and wail in fear, Eloi- - - - -we Morlocks are on the hunt! There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self. - Ernest Hemingway Love your enemies and drive 'em nuts!
“Regarding the journals that are worn oval- - - - -don't most service manuals recommend MEASURING the crankshaft journal with a micrometer, and having acceptable limits for "out of round" and "taper"???????? Jerry”
I would have shut down a lot of good running engines if I went strictly by the book. One can squeeze a lot more mileage out of these if you’re creative.
"Shoeshine and file"- - - - -the shade tree mechanic's mantra! I've also limped an engine back to the shop about 50 miles with a LEATHER rod bearing made from a piece of rawhide so we could replace the crankshaft. Jerry
"It is better to be silent and be thought a fool than to speak and eliminate all doubt!" - Abraham Lincoln Cringe and wail in fear, Eloi- - - - -we Morlocks are on the hunt! There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self. - Ernest Hemingway Love your enemies and drive 'em nuts!
Skooter I've had that oil drip mess many times,would try to let it set at least overnite. My teacher on rod bearings used the 8 oz. hammer method,then he would say oh if you get 10 or 12 pound of oil pressure your doin good,then he would just laugh !! I always used a piece of feeler gauge to check clearance,then just see if it will move in other words not locked up.
Back at it. Working on a very part time basis the project is slowly moving forward. Pans off and clean, water hose test show all oil sprayers are hitting the same relative spot on the pan.
As mentioned above, rods are between.0015 and .002. On the mains, #4 is at.0015, 3 is .002 and 3 is .002. The process was pull one shim from each side, then check and record the clearance and move on to the next bearing.
This morning I hit the shop at the crack of 9:00AM, built a fire, intending to check/adjust # 1 main bearing andthen get on with doing battle with the rear main seal.
The front motor mount assembly wouldn’t allow the main bearing cap to clear.
Well…..I do have a new front replacement mount (not the whole thing, just the replacement rubber). So me thinking this can’t take long, I’ll change it and while it’s out of the way check/adjust #1 main clearances.
And that little While I’m There, ate the morning and part of the afternoon.
Success! Sorta. Shim on one side of #1 cap was a single.0015 shim. Other side had two .0015, so split those put one on each side and check. .0001 clearance. Hummm. Have to think about that.
With #1 cap off, move back to #4, pull the cap and loosen 2 & 3 a few turns.
Mold the Best gasket to shape using the main cap, coat with Lucas oil additive (slippery stuff).
With the Sneaky Pete and the crank rotation via a big screwdriver in the clutch housing it took about 1 minute to pull the new top rope seal into place! Unbelievable. Last time it was a battle royal. This time almost too easy.
I think the reason for the ease of installation was the crank was dropped quite a bit more. Last time I was far too cautious on loosening main bearing bolts.
Now if I haven’t caused a front seal leak this project is near completion.
"It is better to be silent and be thought a fool than to speak and eliminate all doubt!" - Abraham Lincoln Cringe and wail in fear, Eloi- - - - -we Morlocks are on the hunt! There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self. - Ernest Hemingway Love your enemies and drive 'em nuts!
moparguy Now for the old razor blade trick,I haven't seen a sneaky pete in 30 years. I suppose you'll jack the crank up into position then cut off the excess.
fixite7, hadn’t considered using a jack. My plan is torque the other main caps to 110, then trim the top seal.
The front of #1 main cap stuck to the lower portion of the timing gear housing gasket. When I pulled the cap a substantial portion of the gasket came off in a ragged non salvageable fashion.
Question, does that part of the gasket serve any real purpose? It’s sealed by the oil pan.
When I pulled the front main bearing cap of my '28 engine in Lurch (see links below), it also broke the front gasket that goes to the cam gear area. There was a slight knock in that bearing, so I needed to remove a few shims to get the clearance into spec.
After putting the cap back on, with some gasket goo on the front where the gasket tore, it leaked anyway from the cam gear area. Since I don't drive my old truck very much, I added a cookie sheet and a baking pan as 'depends' under the engine to catch the drips. Rube Goldberg made me do it.
On one 10 mile drive, I measured the amount of oil leakage and found that Lurch drips a little under 1 teaspoon per mile. Not too bad.
Oh well, when you're 95 years old, you're gonna drip!
'57 GMC 102, Original 347 V8, HydraMatic, 3.08 rear gear, added A/C, disk front brakes, HEI, AFB carb, '98 Honda Black Currant paint. T-boned and totaled 10/12 '52 GMC 152 Stake Bed, Original 228, SM420, added A/C, HEI, disk front brakes, '67 Chev 3.55 rear gear. Gets used as a real truck.
I've been known to trim the timing plate gasket flush with the block and make a new gasket in the shape of the front main cap. Seal the parting line with Permatex gel "gasket maker". It's an "anaerobic sealer" sort of like very thick LocTite that is applied with a putty knife and cures into a solid layer once the air is blocked by bolting the parts together. Jerry
"It is better to be silent and be thought a fool than to speak and eliminate all doubt!" - Abraham Lincoln Cringe and wail in fear, Eloi- - - - -we Morlocks are on the hunt! There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self. - Ernest Hemingway Love your enemies and drive 'em nuts!
Dean, good job on the drip pan! Reminds me of a long ago checking on a crew late Friday afternoon that was shutting down for the day/weekend. Problem was they had bellhole open on a major city street. Said their Case 480 hoe was leaking too bad and losing hydraulics.
They had a 5 gallon can of fluid, so while they filled the backhoe I cut the top off a empty 5 gallon container, put it under the leak and had em recycle the oil. An hour later they were backfilling the hole. I don’t think I made any points with that crew but they had a story to tell and I didn’t get any calls on that job over the weekend.
Jerry, I’d considered making a new lower gasket or using a gasket in a tube product. Just need to play around with my diy gasket making materials and see what works. I’ve had good luck with brown grocery sack paper, sometimes coating it with wax and cereal boxes. I’m going to mic a piece of the original and try to match it’s thickness.
moparguy On the jack trick it will just seat the crank and leave you room to get a good trim job. I probably put it on the flywheel rim next to the ring gear so it's out of the way,then trim the cap half a little proud (where you can do it in the vice) sweep in the whiskers seal the parting line torque it up. I think slight suction from PCV is helpful there however some have a hard time understanding that you don't want to pull a vacuum on the crankcase. On that gasket question I had my insert bearing one down for all -.002 bearings a while back but can't bring up the problem there on that gasket. As you say it's inside the pan have to look at the breakdown picture.
Recovery is progressing from a bad cold and lingering case of BA5 from July. Really ready for that mess to be in the mirror!
Was in the shop for a while this morning and hammered out (literally) a gasket for the back side of the timing cover. Used Felpro gasket material. Picked it up from Napa for $6 and change.
Anyone who drove or rode in an AD truck back in the day knows how to make a gasket using a hammer. But I suspect some folks here have never had the pleasure. So, see the pictures below.
Along with a ball peen hammer scissors were used to cut the inside radius since it doesn’t match the main bearing cap, it fits the timing gear cover making a hammer Not the right tool.
moparguy A friend (girl) who was a collector had her deceased husbands "gasket hammer" a 2 oz. ball pein. Cute hammer,looked I suppose for ten years for a hammer like that finally caught it in Redondo Beach CA. at orchard hardware store. It is a high quality real forged tool steel hammer. Big fun to do it like the old timmers ...wait we are the old timers now !! Anyway fun to make your own gaskets for stovebolt service !!
Success!! So far anyway. Short 5 mile test drive & no knock.
Bolted the oil pan on yesterday about 1:00 pm. Since it’s recommended to let RTV gasket maker sit 24 hours, I decided to wait till today to crank the truck. Likely overly cautious since the only sealer is a small dab on each end of the end gaskets but I had time so why not.
Tomorrow if weather permits I’ll make a 45 mile trip to town & back, that’ll tell the tale.
More good news is the new front motor mount seems to have cured the agervating clutch chatter.
In closing, I followed experienced advisors and stuck the side gaskets to the block, then the end gaskets in the main caps with a dab of sealer on each end gasket/side gasket joint. Last time as a greenhorn I sealed the gaskets to the pan. Not the best approach.
Others can explain the technique better than I so forgive a little C&P below.
Hotrod Lincoln
Attaching a gasket to the oil pan is a really good way to get a leak, no matter how careful you try to be. Stick the cork side gaskets to the block first, with some type of quick-setting adhesive like trim cement, contact cement, etc., then do the same to the end seals, MAKING SURE THE END SEALS END UP OVER THE SIDE GASKETS- ---cork against the block, and the end gaskets sandwiched between the pan and the side strips, cork or rubber. DO NOT apply sealer to the pan side of the gaskets, side or end. Then use a TINY bit of RTV sealer right where the side gaskets and the end pieces join. I rarely, if ever manage to use up a whole tube of RTV before it hardens up in the tube. That stuff is one of the most-over-used gasket sealers I can think of. Jerry
Chevy Nut The correct way to install the pan gasket is to stick the side corks to tne block first. The tabs on the ends of the side corks must slip into the grove in the main bearing caps. The when the end corks are installed they but up against the tab and a complete overlapping seal is made. This can not be done by fastening the gasket to the pan first and an oil leak will result. I use grease to hold the side corks to the block so If I must remove the pan later very little gasket scraping is necessary. Between the grease and the studs they stay in place very well.
moparguy A friend (girl) who was a collector had her deceased husbands "gasket hammer" a 2 oz. ball pein. Cute hammer,looked I suppose for ten years for a hammer like that finally caught it in Redondo Beach CA. at orchard hardware store. It is a high quality real forged tool steel hammer. Big fun to do it like the old timmers ...wait we are the old timers now !! Anyway fun to make your own gaskets for stovebolt service !!
I've had a 2 oz ball-peen hammer in my kit for many years. Aside from making gaskets, I once used it to knock dents out of an old tuba I bought at a second hand store. Lately, I was watching a YouTube video on dent removal of a French Horn. The technician was using a similarly sized hammer on the brass bell. So among musical instrument tools there are such hammers. That's a possible source.
1951 3800 1-ton "Earning its keep from the get-go" In the DITY Gallery 1962 261 (w/cam, Fenton headers, 2 carbs, MSD ign.), SM420 & Brown-Lipe 6231A 3spd aux. trans, stock axles & brakes. Owned since 1971.
There are tiny ball pein hammers available on Amazon or eBay. Just search for the size you're looking for. They're typically sold a jewelers tools.
Kevin 1951 Chevy 3100 work truck Follow this saga in Project Journal Photos 1929 Ford pickup restored from the ground up. | 1929 Ford Special Coupe (First car) Busting rust since the mid-60's If you're smart enough to take it apart, you darn well better be smart enough to put it back together.
"It is better to be silent and be thought a fool than to speak and eliminate all doubt!" - Abraham Lincoln Cringe and wail in fear, Eloi- - - - -we Morlocks are on the hunt! There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self. - Ernest Hemingway Love your enemies and drive 'em nuts!
As I like to say, this is the period on the sentence. First thing I noticed in the shop today was NO Oil on the floor! Woohooo! That’s unheard of for the Green Truck. Out of real concern, I checked the oil––full!
Then drove to Sheridan, about 22 miles one way. Enjoyed a chocolate cone at the Daisy Queen and visited a couple buddies, then home. Cruised at 60 for a few miles but a tire imbalance (or bent wheel or bad tire) on the front showed up so slowed to 55.
Best news is no knock at all.
My thanks to all who helped me sort this out and advised on proper techniques in this bit of necessary maintenance. I suspect that if you ignored that minor new noise, it could have been very expensive.
Chevy Nut I like to use gun grease on a pan set too,a lot easier if you go back in there. A stovebolt is gonna be kinda seepy anyway,my side of our garage apron is authorized to be territory marked ! It gets worse whem I work on it too !!
klhansen I just looked at my 2 oz. hammer it's a vaughn super steel forged and ground ball-pein just like the big ones. I watch for them there just not hardly out there. Oh well once we're all done it'll just be tacoma's all rusted out bodies and frames. LOL Gonna watch Kyle use a chevy on the NAFCAR boys today !! national association of foreighn car auto racing.
moparguy Saw your comment on only .0001 th on a rod bearing,I guess the old hammer method might have given about that same thing. Thousands of them done that way. On modern stuff I put in four slip in a .002 feeler (on like a sbc) if good put in the other four. If suspect use the piece of a feeler gauge method. Don't think I ever bought any plastigage just saw others use it. My 235 has all --.002 under bearings thruout is best oil pressure ever .
