Not sure if right location to post this. Have a 54 GMC 150-24 truck. I am looking to find out what rims I have and if usable if cleaned up or if I can find replacement rims that can hold hubcaps. If I can reuse these for the time being, where can I find the 7.00-17 tires and types, nowhere in searching google comes up with good answers. All new at this and wanting to get truck on side roads, etc. while I am restoring it. Thank You
Please post what you are working on with every post or put your truck in your signature line. Help us help you.
Martin '62 Chevy C-10 Stepside Shortbed (Restomod in progress) '47 Chevy 3100 5 Window (long term project) ‘65 Chevy Biscayne (Emily) ‘39 Dodge Business Coupe (Clarence) “I fought the law and the law won" now I are a retired one! Support those brave men/women who stand the "Thin Blue Line"! Hug a cop! USAF 1965-1969 Weather Observation Tech (I got paid to look at the clouds)
There are split rims, split rings and in your case, you have the removable ring type rim. The rims were designed to be use with inner tubes. This type rim can be very hard to find in good condition. Good alignment and fit (ring to rim) is required. If not correct, the ring could pop off and cause serious damage. Warped, dented and heavily rusted parts should be avoided. Many tire shops will not touch this wheel because of split rim phobia. You may have to take it to a shop that does big truck tires. The hubcap on the front looks like a 1/2 ton. You will need the deeper 3/4 ton caps for the rear. You can purchase the clips, that hold the hubcap, separately.
I’m afraid you may have the dreaded RH-5 Widow Makers. Hopefully one of our experts will pop in and show me how wrong I am. If they are the RH-5 do not attempt to air up/down without taking the proper safety precautions. They can/will kill you if not done right. Be safe.
Martin '62 Chevy C-10 Stepside Shortbed (Restomod in progress) '47 Chevy 3100 5 Window (long term project) ‘65 Chevy Biscayne (Emily) ‘39 Dodge Business Coupe (Clarence) “I fought the law and the law won" now I are a retired one! Support those brave men/women who stand the "Thin Blue Line"! Hug a cop! USAF 1965-1969 Weather Observation Tech (I got paid to look at the clouds)
The top post by RP14 shows photos of the Firestone type AR not the dreaded type RH-5. That rim he has is a 3 part rim with lock ring It’s safe if handled with respect and proper care and still usable to this day. Not illegal and some truck shops will service them. -s
Martin is probably right. I can't tell by looking from the wheel outside if this is the RH-5 type but here are pictures for reference. The RH-5 is hazardous. Those noted as obsolete are probably the ones that are also hazardous. Unfortunately I don't have pictures of the third possibility, Kelsey Hayes rims.
Last edited by buoymaker; 07/26/20223:24 PM.
"Adding CFM to a truck will only help at engine speeds you don't want to use." "I found there was nothing to gain beyond 400 CFM."
Not a widow maker. It's just a simple 2 piece rim with a non-split ring. A slide hammer (or tire hammer) knocks the bead down. The ring is pushed below the lip and then you take your tire bar, put it in that little slot and pry the ring over the lip of the rim. I used to find more of those on old trailers than I did vehicles. The widow maker was more of two half rims that locked in the middle. I think I've busted more multi piece rims when I was a younger man, than I care to talk about. At least my back doesn't like remembering.
Look at photo 3. One continuous ring. It is a split rim, but a non-split ring. So there wouldn't be any confusion, we'd refer to them as a multi-piece rim.
The AR type is the only one with a visible split ring The third photo just hides the split with shadows I have many of these rims well over 30 and this is what they look like No other rim has these forward facing characteristics of the half visible lock ring There is an updated version in later 50s that had more round on the outer bead ring and you can mix and match the parts with this earlier style in the first post. The details of the rim are stamped on the outer ring and you need to carefully strip the rim to bare metal to read it.
I have both types of rim on my farm I’ll try to take detailed photos of each this week If I remember -s
Sorry. I just introduced confusion by showing an example of a split ring. Attached is a picture of a continuous ring for a 15", 6 lug used on a 1955 Chevrolet 1/2 ton.
"Adding CFM to a truck will only help at engine speeds you don't want to use." "I found there was nothing to gain beyond 400 CFM."
I feel like going back and deleting everything I just posted on this topic.
I had a nagging suspicion that the rims on RP14's truck are Kelsey-Hayes but I didn't know which model. I now think they are WK-4. The information at the bottom came from Jim Carter's Website. Click on Technical in the menu.
RP14, I would advise you to go to the www.oldgmctrucks.com website and join up. Post your question. You may get more accurate information.
There are more modern 1960's 8 lug rims that have hubcap clips for a 17" tire but I fear they may be expensive. Also if you plan to do disc brake conversion on the front, the rim backspacing can be a problem for rotor clearance. I mention this to help you in case you decide on purchasing new rims.
There were two types of split rims offered originally a 3/4 ton GMC; 15" TWO piece split rims (Kelsey-Hayes type WK-3), and optional 17" THREE piece split rims (Kelsey-Hayes type WK-4) The two piece split rim uses a lock ring that is fixed and is one solid piece. There's a notch in the rim where you can remove and reinstall the bead retainer ring while mounting and breaking down tires. To remove, you tip the ring at an angle and then slip it by the notch. To mount, do the opposite. This type DOES NOT require prying apart the ring and if you try to pry it off, you'll ruin ix The 17" split rims originally would have been the Kelsey-Hayes type WK-4 and are three pieces; the rim, the bead ring, and the lock ring. They are put together pretty much the same way they do now-a-days on big truck rims. The tire goes on the rim, then the ring slips on and then the third ring is "zipped" on/off using a sledge hammer and pry bar. The safety of these rims is directly dependent upon their overall condition. I have split rims on all three of my vintage GMCs. You will find knowledgeable truck tire places will work on them without hesitation and car tire places will go screaming in circles with their hair on fire spewing misinformation about "suicide" rims which may or may not be applicable, but does more to spook people than inform them with facts. I have many many miles on my original split rims and find them to be great for my purposes. Others may have different views of what works for them. See the illustration below to understand the three basic types of original stock rims you'll find on the old GMC trucks. View PDF Chart of 1947-1954 Split Rims
Last edited by buoymaker; 07/26/20227:41 PM.
"Adding CFM to a truck will only help at engine speeds you don't want to use." "I found there was nothing to gain beyond 400 CFM."
We must be using terminology in different ways. In the OP's first three photos , I see continuous lips of the bead ring, no gaps or splits at all. A two piece rim.
If you are saying they are a three piece rim, and you are talking about the lock ring which can get buried between the bead ring and main rim piece, and it is split, I'd say entirely possible looking at the pictures. There does seem to be a lot of gap between the bead ring and the rim.
yeah the bead rim is continuous But the lock ring has a gap The bead rim and lock ring and the main rim part makes it 3 piece rim not a two piece rim which I’m also familiar with The AR type has 3 parts to it Front bead rim, the main back part and the square cross section lock ring A RH-5 is the two part rim and they separate in the center of the rim behind the center portion so when bolted to the truck there are no parts that could go flying into the street if they fail -s
OP’s rim cannot be the wk-4 because the outer side bead rim is not that rolled metal shape It’s a flat surface next to the lock ring and not folded over rounded front view as the Kelsey-Hayes which looks like a nicely curved round pipe from the front view
I put some color on it attached Yellow is the split lock ring Blue is the main back part of the rim Red is the continuous outer front bead ring and it’s flat faced not curved -s
We need an actual picture of WK-4 and not a drawing. If anyone is a member of oldgmc trucks, or owns an original GMC, it would be helpful to get a picture for comparison. Unfortunately for me, I have tried to register but was denied. They may require ownership of a GMC.
"Adding CFM to a truck will only help at engine speeds you don't want to use." "I found there was nothing to gain beyond 400 CFM."
We used to run 17" on our 3/4 ton GMC 60 to 70 years ago. As far as I know, they were Kelsey Hayes. To me the most desirable one was the three piece. I still have some 17" wheels with junk tires on them. I will try to get some photos. As for the GMC site, I have heard several instances where registration was denied. The administrator and I discussed this several weeks ago. I will contact him and let him know that he problem still isn't fixed. GMC ownership is not a requirement.
WOW, tons of info and ideas. Thank you, huge learning experience. Now I know how to search as google can be stupid, showing me photos of sewing machines when I specify tires. Guess sewing machine have "tires" or wheels. So I looked closer at all the tires, one member was right, there is one different tire on there, all 4 have the continuous flange with a split locking ring that goes between rim and flange. The one rim looks like the Kelsey-Hayes WK-4, the other 3 look like the Type AR rim. If these rims are good, I will go back and look for matching rim(s). Unsure what is out there but may be a good day to search the yard for more stuff. If the rims not good, then I guess I'll have to invest in solid rims if I can find them. I do have a set of steel rims but very close to the steering arm and wider, got those mainly to move truck around while working on it cause the split rims were making me nervous airing up at every flat to move, I only air it up to maybe 15-20 lbs. just to get it rolling. Here are some photos of the rims. If they are usable, which ones are the best type and what do I look for in cleaning up? Only thing I see rusted is the locking ring, rest appear good.
Now it makes sense. The WK-4 has a distinctive look.
To answer your questions (my opinion):
*) If you plan to have a restored original 3/4 or 1 ton GMC, no-brainer, the WK-4 is what you need. You would need to find another rim in good condition. The odd rim you could use for a spare tire. *) I would find a shop that has experience with the WK-4 rims. Let them look at them, appraise their condition and give their recommendations on cleaning and painting. This may help you legally (hope it never comes to that) if you plan to take the GMC out on the road. It will show "due diligence" on your part towards safety. *) If you want an everyday driving truck, I would find modern rims, that fit you truck properly, that are made for today's tires.
"Adding CFM to a truck will only help at engine speeds you don't want to use." "I found there was nothing to gain beyond 400 CFM."
Now it makes sense. The WK-4 has a distinctive look.
To answer your questions (my opinion):
*) If you plan to have a restored original 3/4 or 1 ton GMC, no-brainer, the WK-4 is what you need. You would need to find another rim in good condition. The odd rim you could use for a spare tire. *) I would find a shop that has experience with the WK-4 rims. Let them look at them, appraise their condition and give their recommendations on cleaning and painting. This may help you legally (hope it never comes to that) if you plan to take the GMC out on the road. It will show "due diligence" on your part towards safety. *) If you want an everyday driving truck, I would find modern rims, that fit you truck properly, that are made for today's tires.
I would like it do be a daily driver and will be mostly in town with no highway driving and on dirt roads as well. I'll ask around if someone knows these tires (small town only 1 tire shop). Only have 1 WK-4 tire and if these are the "good" ones, I'll check with a buddy of mine and see if I can check his yard for 3 or 4 more. Probably stuck in the mud kind unless on a truck? Otherwise I'll stick with newer rims. If the AR rims are good also, I'll look for 2 of those. I agree the WK-4 has a better look to them. Thank You
They were both 3 piece and used a sort of snap ring to lock the removable ring. In my opinion they were the safest multi piece wheels ever made. They are simple to change. We lubricated them well with either Rublyde or just soapy water. We used a duck bill hammer to knock the bead down to where the lock ring completely exposed the the snap ring. The snap ring can then easily be removed with a large screw driver. I have a couple of tire changers at my shop. One is for passenger tires and the other for large truck tires. I am sure either one of them could be used to knock the bead down. I am 78 years old, but I would not hesitate to change one of them using a duck bill hammer. However, I rally don't want to in our 100℉ heat.
17" were standard on one tons. I think they were an option on 3/4 tons. We found used wheels in wrecking yards back in those days and replaced 15" with 17". 17" wheels were hard to find back then. Not many 3/4 tons came from the factory with 17" and one tons could be either 17"single or 18" dual. I wouldn't know where to begin looking
The quick fix is a Dexsar conventional trailer wheel. They use 16" tires that are still available.
They are the same design that Ford used on their pickups for many years. Ford will work in a GM, but not visa versa. The bolt pattern is the same, but Ford used a bigger hub. They are stud piloted so it really doesn't really make any difference. GM hubcap clips can be attached to the Ford/Dexstar wheels to attach GM hubcaps.
Found 2 AR type rims to replace the unmatched one as well as a spare. Will do some more research before getting the tires, like to get the brakes and other stuff done before spending money on wheels. Could not find the WK-4 rims.
"1954 Chevrolet 3600 3/4 ton truck. I used 215/85/16 10ply tires. Everything fit with no mods, tie rod is close but good."
Would assume this would also work on GMC.
When you come back to the wheels, here is some info for consideration.
If we compare overall tire diameters: MPH = RPM X Tire Diameter / Gear Ratio X 336 assuming rear axle ratio is 4.57 and transmission final gear is 1:1.
7.00-17 = 34.2". The formula says 66.8 MPH @ 3000 RPM. 215/85/16 = 30.4" (tallest tire for the rim). The formula says 59.3 MPH @ 3000 RPM.
A 7 MPH slower speed but the transmission is rotating faster so the speedometer will read higher. To correct the problem may require a speedometer gear change in the transmission.
"Adding CFM to a truck will only help at engine speeds you don't want to use." "I found there was nothing to gain beyond 400 CFM."
I have the Dexstar AM 20766 on my 1954 3604, fit perfectly and yes the tie rods are close. No problems. Now, if someone would install clips for the hubcaps...
Ron - - Dusty53 1954 Chevy 3604 In the Gallery Forum "You can't dance with the Devil and then wonder why you're still in Hell." "They will forget what you've said, and they will forget what you have done but they will never forget the way you made them feel."
What is the reason for two and three piece rims? Why were they developed? Why weren't they made like one piece rims of the era?
I can't see a benefit to the design.
1950 Chevrolet 3100 (Ol' Roy)
1939 Packard Standard Eight Coupe (The Phantom) | 1956 Cadillac Coupe de Ville (The Bismarck) | 1964 Ford Galaxie 500 coupe |1966 Ford Mustang (Little Red) | 1969 Pontiac GTO (The Dishpit) I 1979 Ford F-100 | 1976 Ford F-150 (Big Red) | 1995 Ford F-150 (Newt)
Another reason is for military trucks. You want a wheel that a soldier can change a tire out with small basic tools. Some of the trucks had a compressor on the engine.
"Adding CFM to a truck will only help at engine speeds you don't want to use." "I found there was nothing to gain beyond 400 CFM."
Multi piece wheels are still manufactured for tube required tires. A removable lock ring is required to mount tube required tires. Anyone who has ever changed tires will know that with truck tires the tube is placed inside the tire and then the tube is inflated to where it has no folds in it. Then the flat is placed over the tube to prevent the tube from rubbing on the rim. The tire, tube and flat is placed over the rim to where the stem can be pulled through the hold. Then the tire is slid over the rim and the lock rim installed. Tubeless tires use a one piece drop center wheel. With a little experience and a lot of lubricant and the correct tire tools a large truck tire can be pried on and off of a drop center quite easily. However it is impossible to mount a larger truck tire tire with a tube and flap in it on a one piece wheel without damaging the tube. About 50 years ago tubes were available for tubeless truck tires that had had a hole too large to patch. A tube was placed inside the tire and the stem was pulled through the hole with a valve fishing tool like was done on passenger cars with tube required tires.
This turned out to be a bad idea because when the tube was inflated inside the tire not all of the folds straightened out and tubes start leaking at the folds in a short period of time. Anyone who is old enough to remember when tube required tires were still popular, probably about half of the flats were caused by folds in the tubes. And this applies to civilian vehicles as well as military vehicles. Multi piece wheels are still available for container chassis that run 10x20 tube required tires.
The reason for tube required tires on container chassis is because they park them at sea ports and warehouse districts where crime rate is very high. And the thieves cannot sell tube type tires quickly so they don't steal them.
Anyone who is old enough to remember when tube required tires were still popular, probably about half of the flats were caused by folds in the tubes.
This is why our procedure was to inflate slightly for tire assembly and hold the liner in place. Then mount to rim. Throw it in the cage and inflate. Then deflate until it relaxes, then re-inflate to recommended PSI and mount on truck. The only time we used the deflator tool was to disassemble the tube type assemblies, to vacuum out the tube completely until it collapsed.
If some powder was sprinkled in the tire before installing the tube, the tube came right out. We did this on our own equipment. However, we changed tires for the general public until the early 1970's. Quite often a tire came in with the tube really stuck to the tire. The only way to get it out was with a deflator.
