The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area The HiPo Shop Frame repair or Camaro subframe 59 Apache

I'm hoping this is the right forum for my question. Since the decision is to repair/reinforce the frame and install an aftermarket IFS crossmember or cut it off and swap in a Camaro sub I think this may be the right place. Some background information is that the cracks in the frame resulted from my brother installing a 455 Pontiac in lieu of the 327 that had been there. I don't know if he or the previous owner welded the angle iron into the frame to make motor mounts. At this point, all I am asking is for input on whether any of you would be comfortable straightening the bends and welding up the cracks and using this frame. I figure boxing the frame would help strengthen it as well. I can weld, but I'm not above calling in a pro where it's critical. Background on me is that I was a Fleet Automotive Mechanic for the National Park Service for more than 30 years. I'm far from a master fabricator. My welds aren't always pretty, but they stick together pretty good! I know that this thread is useless without pictures, so I will attach what I have. Thanks in advance for advise!

And the driver's side

Oops, those last 2 were the passenger side. That's the side with the obvious crack. I also realized the marks on the front crossmember were from the harmonic balancer rubbing on it. No picture of that yet. It would explain how he knew something was very wrong...

I’m not an expert on frames, but these frames were engineered to flex. All of the components attached to the frame (crossmembers, spring perches, etc.), were riveted, thus avoiding stress cracking in the weld affected area. Welding hardens the metal, thus the reason you are seeing cracks. Welding up the cracks without heat treating afterwards, will create the same issue you are seeing now.

If it was my project, I would look for another frame. Even if you are planning to installing IFS, I wouldn’t want to start with those cracks. I see them come up here occasionally on the “Parts for Sale” forum.

Just my two cents!

Thanks! Of course if $$ were not an issue I would buy a complete new fancy frame from one of the aftermarket companies. I probably have champagne taste on a beer budget!

Those cracks are pretty severe, and I can see where the problem began. Welding anything to the "C" channel part of a frame creates stress risers that result in flexing and fatigue cracks. Boxing a frame without doing some pretty fancy stress relief shaping of the boxed sections can also lead to problems, especially with a high torque engine. Boxing plates should have a pretty deep elliptical shape to both ends to spread out the stress along a long area fore and aft.

I'd suggest looking for a different frame to start with, as there are probably weak spots that haven't gotten to the point of developing cracks yet. If you're going to go with an IFS front end, consider a Nova instead of a Camaro- - - -the wheel track will probably come out better in relation to the fender width. Good luck!
Jerry

Yeah that angle iron mount was poorly designed. The bottom leg concentrated force in the center of the frame web. If it had been extended down to the lower flange, it MIGHT have worked. The frame can probably be salvaged with some doubler plates welded in, but it would still be iffy, and would require professional help. Probably too expensive to really consider. Like the other guys, I'd suggest finding a replacement frame.

I see you are in Alaska. So you know about isolation. I'm out here in rural Montana. Literally a hundred miles from nowhere. Apologies to Sandpoint ID and Missoula MT, but it is a long way to anywhere. Shipping a frame or driving a truck to pick up a frame will be pricey. Thanks for the helpful input. I do have a Camaro subframe my brother planned to install. He never did it for a number of reasons. Not having a shop with anything more than a gravel base and not taking on that kind of job made him put it off. I have a garage with a 2 post lift and nice level floor. If I'm giving up on this frame, maybe I should study up on the Camaro transplant. Whether to do the No Limit style insert or the under the frame style is a question. I have been debating this for a year now and just need to know if I should commit to actually cutting the frame. I can see advantages to both methods. Also, I can likely find a mobile welder to finish the job. It's just that that first step is a long one. Cutting off the frame. If nobody thinks the frame can be safely patched, that might be the next thing I need to seriously consider. I guess I should buy the No Limit DVD on installing a Camaro subframe. I also need to pull that subframe out and take a real sceptical look at it since my brother picked up a lot of parts for free where he could. Not criticizing him, he was my brother. But darn, he hauled up some real junk some times! Please keep the comments coming. This has been a real help!

Tom, before you pay big money to cut the frame and add a Camaro front sub you may want to consider a complete chassis swap. There are several companies that specialize in these kits. We have a member here on the "BOLT" that is currently using a kit from the link below. This company's design utilizes a 73'-87' Chevy truck frame and is completely bolt on. These truck chassis are literally everywhere and have massive amounts of aftermarket parts available.

PM 593ETow (Andy) and ask about his project. He will be able to give you first hand info on this conversion. Check out the link below.

https://www.e-zchassisswaps.com/6

There are literally thousands if not hundreds of thousands of Camero/Firebird front clip transplants on the roads today. From backyard shops to the professional resto shops, everyone was doing it. Measure 25 times and cut once, fit in place and weld it in. I know it is intimidating but if I can do it anyone can. Watch every YouTube video you can, taking notes along the way then get out the tape and go for it. Make the job fun and you’ll be done in no time at all. Good luck.

A smooth, level floor and an understanding of basic geometry will go a long way toward being successful with a front frame swap. A few decades of building round track racing frame experience would also help. We've done lots of "front clip" swaps where a damaged front frame section is cut away just behind the firewall area and another one grafted on, with nothing more sophisticated than a 4 foot carpenter's level, a framing square, and a plumb bob or three. Measure, tack weld, and measure again- - - -repeatedly, before you commit to doing a final assembly. A small angle grinder and a thin cutoff wheel is a lot more accurate than a cutting torch- - - - -make the initial fit-up as clean and accurate as possible. Putting a few chain anchor bolts into that floor and using screw-type adjustable jack stands also comes in very handy while assembling a frame.
Jerry

I did a Camaro clip, Stovebolt Tech Tip However, I went in to it knowing that the Camaro is too wide. So the plan from the beginning was to replace the stock A arms with Fatman Fabrications narrowed A arms. The lower you want your vehicle, the more the width of the Camaro becomes a problem. I went for stock height, so the width wasn't an issue and I didn't rush to replace the arms. The narrowed arms are on it now. I like how it turned out. To see more of my build, click on the link in my signature.

Thanks! This is exactly the kind of support I was hoping for when I joined this forum. I guess I'm back on the Camaro track now.

Unless there is a lot more cracking, I wouldn't hesitate to add a couple steel plates for extra support and use the existing frame. Adding longer plates should spread out the load and reduce the amount of stress for any particular area. But, that is just my opinion and I'm not an expert on the matter. Lot's of options to ponder. You just need to decide what is best for your build.

Something else to consider, the frame (on a '59) should be stamped with the serial number on the driver side front frame horn. Just in case of title issues. One more reason to consider repairing the original frame.

John

Please do not post YouTube videos directly to your posts. They take up too much bandwidth which Stovebolt has to pay for. Post links as you have done in the past. Thanks, the Stovebolt Staff

Since the recent "upgrade" to the system software, what used to post as a link now imbeds the actual you tube video. It works the same way on another site I'm on that uses the same UBB system. Maybe the geek squad could look into that after their nap time?
Jerry

The OP has his information. Jerry thank you for that little tidbit of information. It explains the uptick in videos.