Like many , I would like to convert my near dead vacuum wiper system ('54 3100) to electric. As this is commonly done , I suspect that there is a favored electric wiper unit that is favored for this application. Could someone please share that information with me?
(I thought maybe this should go in "electrical" , but given the fact that vacuum is also in the subject I thought I'd give it a whirl here...)
Martin '62 Chevy C-10 Stepside Shortbed (Restomod in progress) '47 Chevy 3100 5 Window (long term project) ‘65 Chevy Biscayne (Emily) ‘39 Dodge Business Coupe (Clarence) “I fought the law and the law won" now I are a retired one! Support those brave men/women who stand the "Thin Blue Line"! Hug a cop! USAF 1965-1969 Weather Observation Tech (I got paid to look at the clouds)
Martin '62 Chevy C-10 Stepside Shortbed (Restomod in progress) '47 Chevy 3100 5 Window (long term project) ‘65 Chevy Biscayne (Emily) ‘39 Dodge Business Coupe (Clarence) “I fought the law and the law won" now I are a retired one! Support those brave men/women who stand the "Thin Blue Line"! Hug a cop! USAF 1965-1969 Weather Observation Tech (I got paid to look at the clouds)
Why settle for a second rate electric wiper when you already have the best one for an AD in place. The electric unit takes up valuable space ( you stated your truck is highly modified) which often means a-c and sound system in a very limited space under dash area. A 12v vacuum pump from a diesel will solve any wiper stop/stall problem and can be mounted anywhere. Instead of a single or two speed wiper you will have infinite number of speeds that will work pulling a heavy trailer up a steep hill. Your problem is with the vacuum source and not with the wiper motor.
Save a life, adopt a senior shelter pet. The three main causes of blindness: Cataracts, Politics, Religion. Name your dog Naked so you can walk Naked in the park.
I got tired of doing the gas pedal dance (a 2-step) when I went to work while it was snowing. On the level, the vacuum wipers were OK. Then I would reach a hill where I would have to give it some gas and the wipers would stop.
When I couldn't see much any more, I would let up on the gas (uphill still) and after 1 swipe of the wiper blades, I would tromp on the gas, stopping the wipers again. Repeated as needed until I cruised down the hill on the other side.
That's why I went to electric wipers.
Last edited by Wally / Montana; 02/22/20224:31 PM.
34 Years. Now with a '61 261, 848 head, Rochester Monojet carb, SM420 4-speed, 4.10 rear, dual reservoir MC, Bendix up front, 235/85R16 tires, 12-volt w/alternator, electric wipers and a modern radio in the glove box.
Wally, I'm not trying to throw rocks here. Tell us about your experience with the dual-action fuel pump (https://www.stovebolt.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/51528/1.html)? No longer happy? If the dual-action has shortcomings then I guess the Electro-Vac (or similar device) is probably the last straw for vacuum wipers.
I too was looking at electric wipers till I read "12 volts only". I'm still 6 volts and everything still works well. The notes I have is that Newport may use the Ongaro 2 speed wiper motor (168111-12 CE) made in China (Lubase Co., LTD. website: lubase.waimaotong.com). I seriously doubt Newport makes their own motors but the advantage they have, over others, is that their hardware is made better (from reading other websites). If you g-map satellite their location (2760 Newport Road Washington MO 63090), you can see their buildings. It's a small business. Small business and low volume sales. This leads to higher prices to cover costs.
Last edited by buoymaker; 02/22/20224:51 PM.
"Adding CFM to a truck will only help at engine speeds you don't want to use." "I found there was nothing to gain beyond 400 CFM."
My '99 diesel F250 has an electric vacuum pump to run the heater controls. I don't know if it would have enough volume to run a wiper motor, but they're cheap (although 12V). A cruise thru a wrecking yard would make them even cheaper. There's a small plastic vacuum reservoir as well. The earlier Ford Diesels ('97 & earlier) used a belt driven vacuum pump that powered the HVAC controls AND the brake assist, which would have plenty of volume for a vacuum wiper, but it would be a bugger to mount in an old truck.
Kevin 1951 Chevy 3100 work truck Follow this saga in Project Journal Photos 1929 Ford pickup restored from the ground up. | 1929 Ford Special Coupe (First car) Busting rust since the mid-60's If you're smart enough to take it apart, you darn well better be smart enough to put it back together.
If the pump motor amperage is low enough (less than 10 amps) I may well try one. With a brief search I haven't found any electrical specs. Laying in the shop floor is a vacuum tank off a 18 wheeler trailer I haven't installed due to concerns over how long it'd take to recharge if I ever ran out of vacuum on a major climb. With the little pump chugging away it'd be replenishing the supply even when it was being drained, unlike our truck engines.
Ron, the Ford electric vacuum pump is on a 15 A fuse with a bunch of other stuff (including heated seats), so I'd guess it draws well under 10A. You might look at getting the plastic vacuum reservoir as well. It's about 1 gallon volume or so. Or you could use a smaller tank than your 18 wheeler.
Kevin 1951 Chevy 3100 work truck Follow this saga in Project Journal Photos 1929 Ford pickup restored from the ground up. | 1929 Ford Special Coupe (First car) Busting rust since the mid-60's If you're smart enough to take it apart, you darn well better be smart enough to put it back together.
Tim, the last info I read from other websites is that the 6 volt wiper is actually a 12 volt. It simply runs slower on 6 volts. This needs to be verified with the venders. I could have bad information here.
I just got a message back from Newport. " Most customers have converted their vehicles to 12 Volts but if you are wanting to keep yours at 6 Volts you can still use our wiper motor with our power inverter." This tells me there is no incentive to make 6 volt motors.
For those considering a vacuum pump, the pump reservoir needs a vacuum level switch to turn the pump off and on to maintain reservoir vacuum. Also the control dash-switch or knob needs to be illuminated and receive pump power from an ignition auxiliary contact or ignition relay. The pump dash-switch doesn't need to be on if it's not raining. The illuminated switch will remind you to turn it off if not needed.
"Adding CFM to a truck will only help at engine speeds you don't want to use." "I found there was nothing to gain beyond 400 CFM."
I wondered about a pressure switch. I figured it would be on the pump rather than the reservoir but never messed with one so have no clue.
Save a life, adopt a senior shelter pet. The three main causes of blindness: Cataracts, Politics, Religion. Name your dog Naked so you can walk Naked in the park.
Actually a vacuum switch. Switch location depends on the distance between the pump and the reservoir. A length of pipe or hose from the pump to the reservoir can reduce or have less vacuum. So it's best to have the switch as close to the wiper motor as possible. It's not practical to mount a switch under the dash so Trico made it part of the assembly that mounts to the engine firewall (see picture).
The Electro-Vac doesn't have much of a reservoir and the switch is incorporated. It assists or adds to the manifold vacuum to keep an even vacuum for the wipers.
Last edited by buoymaker; 02/22/20228:22 PM.
"Adding CFM to a truck will only help at engine speeds you don't want to use." "I found there was nothing to gain beyond 400 CFM."
Buoymaker, I gotta remember something from 17 years ago (that link)??! That's a challenge for me!!
I used the manifold vacuum as a "fore pump" on the dual stage fuel pump that I talked about in 2005. No vacuum reservoir. Eventually (I think) it didn't work as well (I think) but I didn't troubleshoot it. I ordered an electric motor from LMC in 2007. The one I got was supposedly for 6V and 12V which sounded nice if I switched from 6 to 12.
At 6V the wipers went nuts and I had to put one of those ceramic resistors in the circuit. When I switched to 12V, I still needed the resistor to slow things down.
Last edited by Wally / Montana; 02/22/202211:41 PM.
34 Years. Now with a '61 261, 848 head, Rochester Monojet carb, SM420 4-speed, 4.10 rear, dual reservoir MC, Bendix up front, 235/85R16 tires, 12-volt w/alternator, electric wipers and a modern radio in the glove box.
For those considering a vacuum pump, the pump reservoir needs a vacuum level switch to turn the pump off and on to maintain reservoir vacuum.
The pump on my F250 diesel has a built-in vacuum switch. All it needs is a key-on power lead. The link in RorR's post on page 2 is the exact thing. I tried to find the plastic reservoir on the Ford parts page, but didn't come up with one. Any type of container could be used. A #10 tin can with the end soldered back on would work. All you'd need is a fitting to connect the vacuum hose to.
Kevin 1951 Chevy 3100 work truck Follow this saga in Project Journal Photos 1929 Ford pickup restored from the ground up. | 1929 Ford Special Coupe (First car) Busting rust since the mid-60's If you're smart enough to take it apart, you darn well better be smart enough to put it back together.
So , to get this down to Tinker Toy level regarding my truck , I would need the original vacuum wiper drive, a 12 volt vacuum pump , and a vacuum reservoir tank of some kind? What makes that reservoir necessary?
My truck is still 6v, but I do run a 6v to 12v, 10 amp convertor. Wonder if it'd supply the pump above? More research to do.
RonR
That's a generic Dorman 904-214. I contacted Dorman for the specs relating to whether it had a self contained shutoff switch. This is the reply: "The pump will shut off at 15" of vacuum, the pump operates to maintain 12-15".
Save a life, adopt a senior shelter pet. The three main causes of blindness: Cataracts, Politics, Religion. Name your dog Naked so you can walk Naked in the park.
A stock engine (no "hot" cam) in good shape will probably have around 22" going downhill with your foot off the gas, 18" at idle, near 8" at a 30 MPH cruise on flat ground and less as you add more load. Uphill at 50 mph? Practically zero. 12-15 inches should do well,
'57 GMC 102, Original 347 V8, HydraMatic, 3.08 rear gear, added A/C, disk front brakes, HEI, AFB carb, '98 Honda Black Currant paint. T-boned and totaled 10/12 '52 GMC 152 Stake Bed, Original 228, SM420, added A/C, HEI, disk front brakes, '67 Chev 3.55 rear gear. Gets used as a real truck.
Add to that a small reservoir and one should work well on most any vacuum wiper system.
Save a life, adopt a senior shelter pet. The three main causes of blindness: Cataracts, Politics, Religion. Name your dog Naked so you can walk Naked in the park.
Also, where does this stuff reside on the f-250? Engine compartment or under dash? Trying to envision where you’d mount it on an AD truck. I like this idea a lot and might even try it.
I've read of people making their own out of PVC pipe & brass barb fittings. You can make it any size and shape you need.
Save a life, adopt a senior shelter pet. The three main causes of blindness: Cataracts, Politics, Religion. Name your dog Naked so you can walk Naked in the park.
I don't know. I know you need one for a climate control system operating off of engine vacuum to keep the vacuum from bleeding back into the engine. With a dedicated pump instead of the engine I would think not but I could be wrong. It's cheap and easy to add one if necessary.
Save a life, adopt a senior shelter pet. The three main causes of blindness: Cataracts, Politics, Religion. Name your dog Naked so you can walk Naked in the park.
In my simple brain, you’d plumb this as an either/or thing. Manifold vacuum supplies the reservoir with vacuum and electric pump takes over when it can’t.
Perhaps the wiper motor itself supplies the check valve. I’ve not studied the workings of the wiper motor to know.
Systems that used manifold vacuum benefit from a check valve (for a few seconds) when you push the gas pedal to the floor, but this vacuum pump system shouldn't really need one.
'57 GMC 102, Original 347 V8, HydraMatic, 3.08 rear gear, added A/C, disk front brakes, HEI, AFB carb, '98 Honda Black Currant paint. T-boned and totaled 10/12 '52 GMC 152 Stake Bed, Original 228, SM420, added A/C, HEI, disk front brakes, '67 Chev 3.55 rear gear. Gets used as a real truck.
I would think a check valve is needed. Think of a long grade going up a mountain. Manifold vacuum is going to drop a lot. You can downshift (4th to 3rd for example) to keep the RPM's (vacuum level) up but the MPH (speed) may be too slow even though the truck is capable of running faster in 4th gear. Also you don't want to overtax the vacuum pump.
Before I got excited and ordered a tank, motor and check valve I would definitely have my vacuum motor overhauled by an expert. The paddle inside the motor has a seal that can wear or age out. The body of the motor can wear inside. There is a top gasket that can age and leak. Adding oil (Trico says 10 wt.) to a wiper motor can make it work better for a while. It's just like squirting motor oil inside engine cylinders and piston rings to raise the compression. It doesn't last if the rings are worn. Also, I wouldn't have high expectations that my $$ investment would produce a clean wipe like a modern truck. Stock design blades and arms can be lacking.
Attached is a picture of a 1947 Kaiser/Frazer vacuum tank booster with check valve. There are similarities to the design of a brake vacuum tank booster (FLAPS) also attached.
"Adding CFM to a truck will only help at engine speeds you don't want to use." "I found there was nothing to gain beyond 400 CFM."
Will the vacuum motor work well with the newer spring loaded wipers if an electric motor and reservoir are added? I drove with the vacuum wipers for a few years, doing the two-step on hills. It was o.k. but the original wipers were not spring loaded to hold against the glass. 80mph in a torrential downpour, the wipers would lift off the glass. I put later wipers with the spring to hold to the glass, and it was too much resistance for the the vacuum motor. I thought an electric wiper motor would be strong enough to move the blades, and also faster. The Newport electric motor did work well, but it was just as slow as the vacuum motor. I’m considering going back to the vacuum motor.
That's the point I was trying to make about the design of the vacuum motor. It has to seal tightly inside to have the torque to move the output shaft when it is loaded (linkage, arms, wipers etc.). If it is leaking a little, it doesn't stand a chance against an electric motor for the torque. The Electro-Vac (or pump and tank) is meant to compensate for periods of low vacuum. It doesn't make the vacuum motor provide more torque at a given vacuum level. Hope that makes sense.
I have motor specs for the Ongaro motor but unfortunately I couldn't find any specs on a Trico vacuum motor.
Without load: Torque 15.6 Nm = 11.5 ft-lb Current 1.2A Speed Fast 59 (sweeps per minute) Speed Slow 41
Working load: Current 1.5A ~ 3.5A Speed Fast 57 Speed Slow 41
Blocked spindle: Torque 14.7 Nm = 10.8 ft-lb Current 11.2A
All the automobile manufacturers went away from the vacuum wiper system for a reason. If I converted to an electric motor I would not switch back unless there was need for an all original truck.
"Adding CFM to a truck will only help at engine speeds you don't want to use." "I found there was nothing to gain beyond 400 CFM."
Also, where does this stuff reside on the f-250? Engine compartment or under dash? Trying to envision where you’d mount it on an AD truck. I like this idea a lot and might even try it.
Yes that’s it. On the F250 it mounts under the hood on top of the passenger side fender liner. But it’s a little speedy. And about any sealed container would work. I think everything would fit under the dash.
There’s a check valve in the Ford pump.
Last edited by klhansen; 02/25/20221:35 AM. Reason: Added info
Kevin 1951 Chevy 3100 work truck Follow this saga in Project Journal Photos 1929 Ford pickup restored from the ground up. | 1929 Ford Special Coupe (First car) Busting rust since the mid-60's If you're smart enough to take it apart, you darn well better be smart enough to put it back together.
Walter, I can't speak to running 80 in the rain. But after I sent my vacuum motor to Wiperman for a rebuild it works the Jeep spring loaded wiper arms with new blades no problem. The Jeep wiper arms are the same length as the originals. I don't recall the details as to which Jeep they were original on, the old guy parts store gentleman spent a couple minutes with a parts book and pulled them off the shelf.
So another option I have would be to send my original vacuum unit to the above mentioned Wiper Wizard and run it in the traditional fashion off of my manifold vacuum , correct?
My truck is a Resto-mod with a modified 283 w/4bbl Edelbrock. I am old enough to know the limitations of vacuum wipers. I am enjoying preserving original components of the truck where possible.
