We are trying, thus far unsuccessfully, to identify the transmission that is married to the 261 in our 1945 Flxible Clipper.
As near as we can tell, from driving it before pulling it, it is a 4-speed with granny-low being up and left, and reverse being down and right.
Here is what it looks like out of the bus.
The patent number appears to belong to Clark and is for the bolt-on remote shifting hardware. (This is our read of the patent anyway.)
There is another number cast into the body that reads: 203097.
We do not really need the make/manufacturer for anything other than satisfying our curiosity. Although, we feel the front bearing retainer is leaking (there is a mess of what appears to be gear oil on the input side of the transmission, the pressure plate, clutch and bellhousing. The oil does not appear to be engine oil and the rear main seal on the 261 seems not to be leaking, though we cannot say that with 100% certainty.
Any information anyone has, even if it might be where else to look on the transmission for additional identifying information, would be appreciated.
Thank you for the suggestion on Novak, Kevin. I do not see anything there, specifically under the SM420 listing, that is a good match.
As P68Dave notes above, the front bearing retainer is an odd ball in that it has an eight-bolt pattern. This is not to say that it could not have been modified, but that one (1) distinguishing 'feature' has been tough to identify on any that we have seen online.
In addition, the side cover (which I believe to be for adding a PTO) on the driver side is mirrored perfectly on the passenger side. (Same position, same bolt pattern, same cover, same nearly perfect vertical orientation.)
Our transmission is also remarkably symmetrical. There are small differences between the driver and passenger sides, but nothing as exaggerated as others we have seen online.
Regardless, thank you both for your suggestions and interest.
I am a member on FOI. They do not, as near as anyone can tell (any members that is), have an active forum. Their page suggests they do, but it turns out they do not, just yet.
I am not on FB, where I am told there is another active group of Flxible owners/admirers. I do not intend to join FB.
Well that's not a helpful website if the forum is vacant. I guess it's mostly pictures. I avoid FB as well.
If the bus was made in 1945 it would have been made for the military during WW2. I would look at WW2 military equipment websites. Also anything made for the military would have halfway decent technical/service information, for those servicemen who may not have a strong mechanical aptitude. You would have to figure out the military designation for the bus type.
Last edited by buoymaker; 06/24/20218:56 PM.
"Adding CFM to a truck will only help at engine speeds you don't want to use." "I found there was nothing to gain beyond 400 CFM."
The shape looks like a New Process. But which model? I looked up NP435, and it wasn't that, except for the shape being similar. Have never seen a shift tower like that one.
Shane
Shane's Toys... 2007 Forester XT Limited (2nd Owner) 1991 Cherokee Laredo (2nd Owner) 1981 Chevy 3/4 Ton Fleetside 8,600 Camper Special (3rd Owner) 1965 Chevy 3/4 Ton Fleetside (3rd Owner)
I chased the Clark patent, initially, but did not have any luck finding the actual transmission.
Does 5-speed mean low and four more forward gears or does it have what would be considered overdrive?
I have not yet found 5th, but I've also not really would it up to a speed that would allow finding 5th.
To the extent I can tell, and noted earlier, low is in and up. Reverse is out and down. I am 100% sure of those two positions only, though in the few miles we've logged I felt we found the correct gears in the correct order. Shifting takes real concentration and left leg/right hand coordination. Downshifting, thus far, has proved very difficult to get correct.
I will have to play with the gears a bit and see what I find.
In low you need not give it any throttle. It will just plod along at idle. Same with reverse.
Last time out I did find a gear that felt like I did not have the correct speed to maintain it. Perhaps that was OD. It seemed to be where I expected 4th to be, which would be out and down, just not out as far as reverse.
Have you removed the shift tower and examined the gears inside the box? You've probably got a "sliding gear" transmission, commonly known as a "crash box" that has no synchronizers. It's necessary to shift one of those boxes fairly slowly, and let the gear speeds match up to prevent grinding. Downshifting is even more challenging, as it involves double-clutching- - - slipping the shifter into neutral, letting the clutch out, revving the engine to match gear speeds, and clutching again before trying for the lower gear position. Experienced crash box drivers don't bother with the clutch- - - -they just eased up on the throttle, to "float" the gears, slip the shifter into neutral, rev the engine to match speeds, and engage the lower gear, all without clutching. It takes a lot of practice, and could be hazardous to a scarce transmission's health! Jerry
"It is better to be silent and be thought a fool than to speak and eliminate all doubt!" - Abraham Lincoln Cringe and wail in fear, Eloi- - - - -we Morlocks are on the hunt! There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self. - Ernest Hemingway Love your enemies and drive 'em nuts!
I have no doubt it is a crashbox, but have not opened it to confirm as much.
Double clutching on the up seems to all but erase any grinding. It did not take long to (read only a few shifts) get that. It seems almost more a coordination issue than an actual clutching issue.
Downshifting, especially from say 4 to 3, is really tough. I do not mind using the clutch as I am anything but experienced. The tough thing is matching speed(s). That is where it falls flat for me as it seems so counterintuitive to be stomping on the foot-feed when not in gear.
We got the bus to use, regardless of the powerplant and drive train. We will use it as carefully as we can, but we will use it regardless.
The transmission was 'bolted' on quite oddly, but everything seemed to line up correctly. By oddly I mean on the top large bolts, one appears to be a stud and nut, though it came out like a bolt. The other is a bolt. We cannot seem to get either out of the transmission mounting tabs, as they hit the boss(es) behind the tabs before they come out. We would like to, at the very least, replace the stud/nut combo with a bolt. If the nut is removed it can come out the front of the transmission, but we would still need to get a new bolt in, which would be equally as problematic as getting the other bolt (and this stud/nut combo) out.
I have a thread in the Engine Shop about the current motor (261) and a mention of the old motor. To date, no one has taken up my question of the original motor, basis the information I have posted. Flxible does have, and I have posted, the serial number of the existing motor.
Here is a picture of a 1946? with 6 cylinder engine. The head is in the shadows in the back. Notice the carburetor. Maybe a WCD or WGD. I'm not familiar with the detailed visual appearance of a GMC 270 and/or other GMC 6 cylinders but this would be my guess. I would go with a military gasoline engine and maybe diesel as an option.
"Adding CFM to a truck will only help at engine speeds you don't want to use." "I found there was nothing to gain beyond 400 CFM."
How does the transmission couple up to the drive axle? Since it appears there's already been a swap made to a non-original engine, have you considered upgrading the powertrain to a more modern engine/trans package? How about a 292-Turbo 400 setup to eliminate fighting with the crash box transmission? You would have more HP and torque than the 261, and a "shiftless" powertrain. Jerry
"It is better to be silent and be thought a fool than to speak and eliminate all doubt!" - Abraham Lincoln Cringe and wail in fear, Eloi- - - - -we Morlocks are on the hunt! There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self. - Ernest Hemingway Love your enemies and drive 'em nuts!
How does the transmission couple up to the drive axle? Since it appears there's already been a swap made to a non-original engine, have you considered upgrading the powertrain to a more modern engine/trans package? Jerry
There is the cutest darned mini drive shaft you've ever seen. It is closer to a PTO shaft, really, as it slides inside itself to adjust for length.
We may do a powerhouse and drive train upgrade at some point. Right now we are not planning any across the continent trips, so we would like to use it as is, so to speak. That said, we would like it to be as trouble free as such things can be.
To that end, and on the advice of a mechanic we trust, we have already changed out the radiator to something that is considerably more off-the-shelf.
We have not, thus far, had trouble finding parts when needed. The guys at the counter have finally stopped asking what I'm working on and then telling me their system does not go back that far. Actually, having the 1960 motor will be helpful as their system does go back that far.
Just to add to the fun, this bus was the tour bus of the Six Fat Dutchman. If you're not familiar with them, hit the Google and check them out. Polka is not my thing, but the history is neat and it is why we call the bus Dutch.
Edited to add a photograph of a portion of the driveshaft.
Good luck when you're a few hundred miles from home, you miss a shift with that geriatric transmission, and is spits a few gear teeth. I 'd be reluctant to drive that one any further than the local 4th. of July parade! Jerry
"It is better to be silent and be thought a fool than to speak and eliminate all doubt!" - Abraham Lincoln Cringe and wail in fear, Eloi- - - - -we Morlocks are on the hunt! There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self. - Ernest Hemingway Love your enemies and drive 'em nuts!
If you could find a picture of your bus with the band members, it would help the historical value. The only ones I have seen, so far, are later model non-military busses.
"Adding CFM to a truck will only help at engine speeds you don't want to use." "I found there was nothing to gain beyond 400 CFM."
If you could find a picture of your bus with the band members, it would help the historical value. The only ones I have seen, so far, are later model non-military busses.
We have the contact information for one of the members. He lives about 30 minutes from us in Arlington, MN. We are hopeful he has some photographs to substantiate the story.
I have the paper copy. It has a chapter dedicated to transmission identification (Ch 6) , but it basically says look through the book and see which picture matches your transmission .
Clark made a many different models of transmissions. It looks like the top cover with the remote shifter mechanism can be refitted to most of them. Yours kinda looks like a a 204VO - but there are several differences between the 204VO and your transmission (see the pic below for reference):
1) The shape of the your cover is different, and does not have as many bolts as the 204VO.
2) The PTO cover on yours is almost perpendicular to the ground, as opposed to being angled on the 204VO.
3) There is no bolt thru the case on the left side near the top for the 1st/reverse lever.
4) The trans just looks "shorter" than the 204VO.
In looking thru the TM, it seems to more closely match either the 185F, 186F, & 187 F series, or the 230F, 231F & 233F. These are all 4 speeds.
BTW, when there is a "V" and "VO" model, the "O" designates overdrive.
As you have found out, you need to double clutch on upshifts, and double clutch and tap the gas on downshifts. When I drive my truck, I can hold my own on upshifts, but my downshifts are still a little shaky. As for shifting sans clutch, as Jerry mentions, I have a looong way to go before I can try that.
A lot of the TMs are available at steelsoldiers.com Don't know if that particular one is, though ...
~ John
A kid raised on Hotwheels, Matchbox and Tonka cannot be reasonably expected to own only one vehicle as an adult.
1949 Chevrolet 3804 In the Legacy Gallery | In the Gallery Forum 1973 IH 1310 Dump 1963 Kaiser M38A1 2001 International/AmTran RE3000 "Skoolie" 2014 Ford E-350 4x4 (Quigley)
When I saw 10.00 Euro on the website, I did a doubletake. France? It makes sense. After WW2 in Europe, it was stated that it was financially more logical (?) to dump military equipment in the ocean than bring them back home. The stuff that wasn't sold or dumped became a "storehouse" or junkyard for old equipment and parts.
Back to the bus.
I doubt the Flxible ever made it to Europe so my guess is it was used to transport troops here in the USA. I would expect a US military archive would be the best place to find a tech manual on this bus.
"Adding CFM to a truck will only help at engine speeds you don't want to use." "I found there was nothing to gain beyond 400 CFM."
My mechanic suggests a Cummings 12-Valve, as they are available for short money (his definition of short money and mine do not always align), parts/service should be available almost anywhere, and they are not overly computerized.
I agree that the photograph above does not align well with what we have. (I really like that transmission holder/stand that is in that photograph.) That would be considerably easier on the back than the method we employed, which was to lift it out from above.
Whatever powerplant you end up choosing, I'd strongly suggest including a heavy duty automatic transmission in the package that's compatible with the engine. It's a lot simpler to make a shift selector from a push-pull cable similar to a PTO cable, than the Rube Goldberg mechanical linkage necessary to shift a manual transmission located several feet from the driver! Jerry
"It is better to be silent and be thought a fool than to speak and eliminate all doubt!" - Abraham Lincoln Cringe and wail in fear, Eloi- - - - -we Morlocks are on the hunt! There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self. - Ernest Hemingway Love your enemies and drive 'em nuts!
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