The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area Engine Shop Rotating 261 on Engine Stand

My 261 is mounted on a standard U-shaped engine stand. I'd like to rotate it so I can more easily install the pan with pan gaskets and main bearing seals.

The head is on the block and it looks really top heavy. (The oil pan doesn't balance the head!) Seems to me that the bar for the stand isn't long enough to prevent excitement.

1. Would it be wise to use a chain to connect a head bolt to a come-along on a garage rafter in order to rotate and lower it more gracefully?

2. Regarding the picture. After removing the pin and rotating the engine, does the black tube ever slide so the pin holes don't line up after rotating?

Note: I don't own an engine hoist and have returned the rental!

Today’s engine stands were never meant to hold our beloved Stovebolt sixes. They need longer legs both length wise and side to side. You can stabilize it somewhat by putting a chain/strap around the head of the stand and ratchet it up to a rafter to take the pressure off but not place the full engine weight on it. Remove the pin, rotate the engine, put the pin back in but keep the chain/strap in place as long as the engine is on the stand, no matter whether it’s upside down or right side up. Or, as said above, put longer legs on the stand. Hillbilly engineering at its finest.

A little grease on the pivot of the engine stand wouldn't hurt, but what Martin said is probably the safest way to get them turned over. And the correct way (similar to the picture) is to locate the pivot of the stand as high as possible in relation to the crankshaft. With it too low, once turned upside down, you may never be able to turn it back upright. At least without 3 men and a boy helping.

My plan before tackling the 261 in the corner is to add a S-Cam or slack adjuster (big truck stuff, do a search) to the back of my engine stand. This will allow it to be rotated with minimum effort and it's safe. Of course lengthening the legs and adding more width to the back of the stand is also required.

RonR

Time for Plan B. Picture shows the situation with a line drawn at the rotation axis height. Assuming a uniform density, about 80% of the weight lies above the rotation axis. Yikes! Time for Plan B. I don't think I'd try to rotate it without the help of an engine hoist.

I wouldn't risk turning that engine, if you do the force of it turning could flip it right onto the floor making for a very bad day...

It might be time to finish the build by looking up at the pan...or take the head back off if you have to look down at it.

Mike B

RonR's idea of adapting a slack adjuster to the stand sounds like an excellent idea, assuming they can go 360 degrees. But even so, once the block is horizontal, most of the weight is on one side, making tipping more likely. [edit] Looks like Mike beat me to the punch on tipping possibility.

[another edit] Would it be possible to modify the adapter arms to get the rotating axis closer to the center of mass?

The stand in your photo is an accident waiting to happen. The legs need to be at least a foot longer so the front casters are well ahead of the front of the crankshaft. Another sneaky trick is to add a piece of 2" wide by 1/2" thick flat bar to those upper bolt holes and extend the ends of the bar 4" or so past the sides of the block. That will allow the legs on the spider to be positioned so the pivot pipe is about halfway between the flywheel hub and the cylinder head, eliminating a lot of the top-heavy condition. Add a few washers to the bottom supports to compensate for the thickness of the upper spreader bar.
Jerry

Another option that I used few years ago on a 5.9 B series Cummins (which weighs a bit more than our engines). Build a stationary stand out of 6" c-purlin, bolt it to the block and when you need to rotate 180 degs, use your porta-crane and a couple buds (and I'm not talking Budweiser). This one time use stand placed the bottom of the block about a foot off the floor, was light and easy to handle and plenty strong. When we flipped it I unbolted the legs and flipped them over so they didn't interfere with the new work area.

Good Luck,

RonR

I have an engine stand just like yours with the wide, double front legs and I have never had issue with tipping like the style which has one single leg up front. Those will tip over with the head on. They tip on about a 45 degree angle half way sideways if you will. This commonly occurs when you try to roll the stand over a crack in the floor.
It is important to do what HRL suggests about how to attach the plate to the block, especially for an engine with the the head on. That head is stupid heavy.

Wally Montana Get some of your pals to come over and help with that. Screwin some long bolts so you can all get a hold of it. Don't release it by yourself,will upset.

I don't want to beat a dead hoist. I appreciate your thoughtfully considered advice. I think trying to rotate the 261 using only that 22" bar would indeed be very dangerous. And the block does extend a few inches beyond the stand's base which looks scarey.

About the whole rig flipping to the right in this picture. The white O is my guess of the center of mass. This would require the block to flip to the right to get the white O to the right of the vertical black line. Is that not so?

So, I'll be OK to work on the 261 (drill/tap a hole in the crank for a bolt and washer, etc.) in the current configuration. Decide for yourselves.

Thanks all.

That particular stand is no where close to safe for an in-line 6. If that’s all you’ve got follow my suggestion above before doing any work on it. If it’s supported from the rafter at least you have a better chance of getting out of the way if it try’s to tip forward.

Buy a couple of pieces of square tubing that will slip inside those legs, and move the casters forward beyond the front of the crankshaft at least a few inches. If you're working on a V8, just slide them back until the casters touch the outer tubes. You can either weld a nut on top of the outer tube for a clamp bolt, or cross drill the tubes so the length of the legs is adjustable. Then reposition the spider so the pivot tube is at the canter of mass. Safe is much better than sorry!
Jerry

Without an engine sitting in front of me this might be a stupid question.

Is there a place to thread a bolt on the front of the engine, fairly close to the center of the stand’s rotation?

And if so, could a guy.....

* place a strong bolt through strong chain, (large enough links to let bolt rotate freely, washer on the other side)

* fix other end of chain to very sturdy item overheard.

This wouldn’t be an assist to rotating the engine, but a safety measure against a catastrophic tip over event.

"If you don't have the time to do it right, when will you have the time to do it over"? Especially if you're missing a few toes from that heavy engine mashing them off!
Jerry

I am running into similar scenario.. What about taking Jerry's suggestion AND welding some brackets to the side that can attach legs that extend out with feet on the bottom instead of casters? And a looonger bar to spin it? With that be safe? any drawback??

I had the same flipping worries and put short block in truck first before installing head.


I cringe looking at the non-reinforced vertical post on that stand and would feel more comfortable with diagonal supports of some sort.

for example
https://www.harborfreight.com/autom...apacity-foldable-engine-stand-69522.html

Updated: for those that can weld..

The stand in the picture is plenty wide enough, as long as the pivot point is close to the center of gravity of the engine so there won't be a tendency for it to flip around as it's rotated to work om the bottom end. The extended legs are simply there to prevent tipping forward as weight such as the crankshaft damper, water pump, etc. are added during the assembly. If the engine is put back on the stand once the flywheel, clutch and bell housing is bolted on, there is a severe danger of tipping and/or rolling over violently, since there will be no way to get the pivot pipe close to center. It's much better to do that with the engine supported by some sort of cradle assembly that carries the weight on the oil pan rails. Plans for a wooden or steel cradle like that have been posted several tines.
Jerry

I had my 6.5 diesel on the stand and was worried as I was re-assembling it, engine weighs 600-700 lbs. I used my engine hoist to take some of the stress off, and was able to rotate it by myself with a 5 ft. pinch bar. I think it was a little more balanced that the straight six though.

wally montana

Don't try this at home but the rotation was embarrassingly easy for me.

First, measurements told me the center of mass in my configuration (w/o water pump, manifolds, etc) would be well, well, way-well within the stand's footprint through the process. (Check this on your own engine and stand.) Even if my 261 was straight out, the head would extend over that leg by only 1".

Then, I hooked up an engine hoist and put a cheater pipe on the stand's pipe.

I did not grease the rotating surface so I had to turn the engine with the pipe to get it to start dropping. There was enough friction that I had to push on the pipe to get the engine to drop down.

I had worried about the motor swinging down on its own but I had to push on the pipe to rotate the engine. Gravity wasn't enough for me.

So, make your own decision. Do all the analysis to decide if you can safely do this with your equipment.

Glad to hear it all worked out and no damaged was done to the mechanic or engine in the process...we call that the 7 P's...

Mike B

For those who want to know - the 7 Ps (2 versions)

The 7 Ps - military version (British Army):
Proper Planning and Preparation Prevents *iss Poor Performance

The 7 Ps - marketing version:
Product, Price, Promotion, Place, People, Process, and Physical evidence

The military version is most likely the one at play here.

Around here it was always..."Pryor Proper Planning Prevents *iss Poor Performance"!

Mike B