The Stovebolt Site Forums The Parking Lot Tons 'o Fun 49 250 Flat / Tilt Bed

Hello, I am relatively new to this site and have a couple of newbie questions. (Forgive my ignorance in advance).
I have a 1949 GMC 250 1 ton dually with a PTO driven tilt / flat bed. The cab and chassis have zero rust. The engine runs but (at times) smokes like a mosquito fogger.
I would like to use the truck for things around my business but as is, it isn’t dependable. The truck appears to be all original and has the original 228 engine and 6 volt electrical system.
Two questions that I have for the group are;
1) Should I retain the original engine or opt for modifying the truck for a modern V8? Is there added value to keeping the truck original? I’m not looking for a hot rod, just dependability. My preference would be to keep it original but wanted others opinions. A local engine rebuild shop has a specialty department for antique engines (United Engine Specialist). They have quoted me between $2800 and $5,000 for pulling, rebuilding completely and reinstalling the engine. Is that a reasonable price?
2) The truck has split rim on the fronT and rear dually’s. Do most abandon the split rim in favor of modern rims? Or is it better in the trucks value yo keep those original too?
Lastly, do most opt to replace the 6 volt system for 12 volt?
Thank you in advance for your thoughts help and input. Attached are a few pics of the truck. I have done nothing to it yet and am ready to start.
Bart Chilcott
(BARCHO)

Bart,

Nice truck. If one posts in more than one spot, it is confusing, all are available to see.

Ed

Understood. Wasn’t getting a response from tons of fun group so posted else where. I would be happy to delete this post but unable to do so. Sorry for the confusion. Perhaps the moderator could assist me in deleting this post to avoid confiding other members.

Putting that aside... nice truck! The 228 is manageable, but if you want to rebuild it yet strive for originality, a 270 or 302 would provide much more power - and look good. They bolt right in sharing the same dimensions as the 228.

However, more power really is determined by your need and how you plan to use it. The 228 is perfectly fine for dubbing around, errands, and work. These are strong and tough engines.

Pros and cons to 12V. More pros than cons in my opinion. With a few modifications you can install a 12V battery, alternator, switch out 6V bulbs, and a few more changes such amp vs voltmeter and coil. No need to change the starter or flywheel. Roadside maintenance, battery charging, and availability of parts at the local store are advantages.

6V is fine, but every connection needs to be clean, bright, and tight - as they say - to have a good performing 6V system. An aging wiring harness may need attention to keep the 6V in good operating condition.

Split rims went the way of the dinosaurs after the meteor hit the earth and wiped out the rims - and most shops today won’t touch them. There are better 8 lug options for those now... 19.5” rims will fit the bill with radials and suit you fine. What is the rear gearing? 5.10? 4.56?

I don’t see how the value will be adjusted much if it has modern or tubeless rims. original rims are a strong consideration for rare or unique vehicles or showing it for points at the Concours d’Elegance on Hilton Head Island. Yet, keep them in the back room should a buyer want them.

I wrote a post awhile back about the costs to rebuild - and how fast the price tag can go up. The price range you mention seems ‘about’ right. But, research this site, ask questions, learn a little more, and then speak to the rebuild shop with more knowledge. You may be able to assemble this engine yourself with a modest investment in DIY tools - and learn a lot in the process. But, I understand this route is not for everyone.

These are surprisingly or relatively straightforward engines. - Believe me when I say - “if I can do it...you can too. If you want to invest in basic tools, rather than paying someone - and stretch the envelope and learn a new skill - then this route is feasible. There are highly skilled and knowledgeable people here that can guide you through this - and others will learn along with you at the same time. But again, this is not for everyone’s unique situation.

Last, your best resources to have at hand are the 1947-54 GMC Shop and Repair Manuals. I believe there is a separate Assembly Manual too. eBay is a good source for those - and I find the original ones have better resolution and picture quality. Between self study in the manuals, and the people here - you will enjoy an optimum running and reliable vehicle (over time).

One comment about using more modern GMC 270 or 302 engines, which is a good idea.

228 and other early engines used a 4 bolt crank and a smaller clutch. Later engines used a 6 bolt crank, so make sure you get the right flywheel for your engines. Flywheels are no longer available, not same bolt pattern as other GM products, however one can get a Chevy flywheel and drill a new bolt pattern to fit your GMC flywheel, using alternate locations between Chevy bolt holes. Have to use 12 volt starter to match flywheel teeth.

Ed

Good Evening,

Lets start by saying NICE TRUCK !!! The GMC guys covered your options on the 228 and 270. 302's are great engines, I've only seen one. I'm not a fan of the v-8 conversions, and not sure what you would gain. Basically, more horsepower and not enough brakes to stop it. A tuned stovebolt is highly dependable.

As for the rims - those 18" splits are three piece rims, not widow makers. One can only find tube tires for them and they can be expensive. The alternatives are the 19.5's mentioned above with a tubeless 8R-19.5 tire. These are the only rims that would fit over the big one-ton rear drums. And by the way, don't ever let your 1-ton brake parts out of your sight. Shoes are not available and must be relined, and the drums are not available anywhere after market.

Don't let anyone talk you into surfacing the drums. You need all the metal you could get for a long time.

That rear "pumpkin" can be swapped out from the 5:xx differential to a more friendly 4:10 or 4:11. Everything else is available and mostly identical to the 1/2 tons and 3/4 tons. Kingpins come to mind as a bit larger, as well as the wheel cylinders. Brake springs between the shoes are out there but you must do a bit of research.


Good luck, and we hope to hear more from you on the "BOLT"

Joe

Thanks everyone for your input on this project. I have a friend who is a machinist / fabricator / custom rat rod guy who has tried hard to convince me to remove the 228 and install an modern LS engine. So far, I’m not biting. I prefer to keep a GMC straight 6 in her. I have found a 302 engine that is running in a 1954 GMC that was a former military fire truck. My assumption is that it’s a military issue sealed 302. Although it’s running, it needs gone through, freshened up and lots of jewelry added to it. 😊
My questions for the group are:
Is the military 302 preferred or is the civilian edition better for swapping in my 49 one ton dually?
Will my existing 3 speed transmission work? Or would I be better using the five speed that comes with the engine?
Lastly, what is a running military 302 worth these days that needs lots of refresh?

Thank you all in advance for your help!

Bart

Military 302’s do not have a fuel pump location machined in the block. No side mounts, mount on bottom of timing cover steel. Might be small other items. H@ve one out back I can inspect if other questions.

I am not aware of 5 speeds behind 302’s, mainly autos in army trucks. 5 speed is a bonus, especially if OD. GMC flywheels are sort of hard to find, can take a Chevy flywheel and redrill bolt holes between Chevy bolts. Probably have sealed ignition system, replace with civilian.


Ed

Update, I have located a running 302 that is in a 1955 U.S. Army fire truck. As you recall, this is to be used in my 1949 GMC one ton dually which currently has a 228. The odometer on the donor truck reads 52K miles.
Ive done some research and have had difficulty finding information on the block number of the 302. I’ve included a picture of it here. As you can see, it begins with an A. This truck also has a 5 speed transmission.
Can anyone shed some light on the block number? Also, what is the typical value of this engine and transmission.
Thank you in advance for your help.

My guess is the “A” designated the engine as Army issue.

I have heard letters first indicate rebuilt, however not likely with such low mileage. The trans is direct, not OD, so would be less desirable than OD box. If there is a furl pump just like the one on your 228, most likely not military, can also look and see if lower front engine mount or side of block mounts. I would go for the 302. I presume your truck has 8 on 6.5” wheel bolt pattern? Rear ratios probably low and lower, so not very useful, D-70 axles with that bolt pattern can have
Higher ratios, single speed, easily exchanged, measure overall axle and spring perch widths to get correct one. Might have disc brakes which you may or may not want.

Should work well with direct 5 speed.

Ed

If you use a 302 I expect even the available 4.10 gears for the Eaton axle will feel like they're holding you back.
Ed mentioned a Dana 70 could work for an axle swap if the right width. I have found the 14 bolt GM axle to be a nicer swap in the AD 1 ton as one version of it is pretty much the perfect width, see sticky thread in this section. 14 bolt also has some quite fast axle ratio choices if needed for some reason. Gears I believe are easier to swap and setup in the 14 bolt (more actual adjustments, fewer shims) than a Dana.

Seems your other questions may have been covered already, but if looking for more input...
In my opinion a 6 cylinder would preserve more of the value and uniqueness of the truck... (why is closer to the original appearance now "unique"?) Would not rebuild a 228 but a 270 or 302 instead.
The 18" wheels and tires are probably fine if in good shape and those wheels are distinctive 1 ton. Otherwise 19.5" wheels exist and are probably a better option if used frequently and or in the long run, best with 8R19.5 tire for the original tall skinny look. There was some discussion and perhaps an example of someone adapting 19.5" rims from a dodge 4500 or similar to the old wheel centers. I think those rims might be a little wide, and would use 6" wide 19.5" rims if possible, and with the original centers with 8 hand holes I think would be the the ideal combo for original looks and modern reliability/function.

No need to switch to single wheels unless you just want to. In which case you need front hubs from a 3/4 or 1 ton single wheel truck. Rear axle is the same except the dually application has longer studs. In my opinion the ideal single wheel is also 19.5" but becoming harder to find than the dual 19.5 wheel.

I can’t help you with the value of the transmission ... but the value of a running 302 is all over the board depending on the seller. I have picked up short block 302’s for 300.00, rebuilt military surplus and crated 302’s for 600.00 and paid about 900.00 for a rougher 302. Yet, some vendors will list them from 1200-1500.00-2200.00 give or take.

The rebuilt military 270’s and 302’s I have seen typically come with metal tags on them that specify bearing and piston sizes, rebuild date, and serial number. These are usually fastened to the engine block.

Lots of opinions here about dual exhaust, intakes, multiple carbs etc... but if it was me - I tend to stay with stock manifolds and carbs on these, just as they were designed for...unless you want to take the 1 ton to Bonneville salt flats and modify it for that use but I like old school hot rods and wish I could install a modified 302 into a model A roadster. 270 and 302’s are fine engines.
Tom

Hey Barcho - Nice truck! I have a '49 just like it, and I've asked and answered the same questions for my truck with the help of folks here, so here's my $0.02.

I ran 6 volt pos for a while, and eventually switched to 12v neg with a 12v generator. Nothing wrong with the 6v, but I wanted 12v for easier access to electrical parts (plus the starter runs faster ) I recently switch over to an Alternator, mainly because they are cheaper and easier to come by.

I also just had my 228 rebuilt. I did all the work except for the machine shop items. In CT, it was about $3400 for boring .040 over, new pistons and rings, bearings, cam bearings, repair a chipped lobe on the cam, new oil pump, new valves (no head machining, did that a while ago), resurface the fly wheel and install a new starter gear ring. I debated on going the 270 or 302 route, but I knew my 228 was pretty good. Unless the block was cracked, I wanted to keep it. I have split "Fenton" headers with dual exhaust (the split header sound really cool on these trucks). I can rip along the highway around 55mph with a big load of hay (about 2500 lbs) no problem. I still have to stock rear end with 5.14 gearing and the 4 speed.
I wanted to keep the original engine. I've never done an engine swap. I know they make all kinds of swap kits to make it easy, but I assume you can still run into clearance and fitment issues

I drove on the original wheels and tires for some time, but the rims were showing some pretty good rust out in some places. Still fairly solid, but if I was going to be hauling heavy farm stuff, I wanted safer rims and tires. I opted for modern 19.5" rims and tires. I found some used truck tires from a tire shop that were in great shape. They don't quite look original, but I do think they look nice, and they ride so much better. I did have to get 1.5" wheel spacers for the back wheels due to my 14" drums. Those larger drums seem to be less common, not sure how my truck got them. You'd think bigger wheels would have no clearance problems but the contour of the rims didn't allow clearance for the bigger drums. I found some heavy duty steel spacers and that did the trick.

I would say do whatever you think would work best for you. My direction was to keep it as original as possible, but also make it safer and more reliable by adding some modern enhancements. It's not a show truck (though it is popular at my local cruise night) its primary job is that of a 1 Ton truck. We've come to rely on it for lots of tasks, so taking it off the road for restoration work can be a pain sometimes!

Good luck with your truck - I'm sure it will be even more awesome when you're done!