The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area The HiPo Shop What is with subframing?

I just gotta get something of my chest, why in this day and age do people still install and recommend doing a subframe swap?

I mean it just seems to me that people go through so much more work to save a few bucks, and it seems to me that it is a dangerous example.

All the people who are trying to build their "budget" project think its the best way to save money. But the truth of the matter is, at least here it is almost impossible to find a Camaro, Firebird, or Nova subframe assembly, supposing I found this subframe, money saved is lost in the extra time it would take to install a subframe properly, and lastly it would be something that I just dont trust riding on the way its mounted.

Piece of mind is worth it to me just to get a MII or other aftermarket crossmember setup, or rebuild the stock front suspension and upgrade to discs and power steering.

I dont mean to rag on the people who have done subframes, Im sure everything worked fine for you but I just dont think it is necessarily the right way to do things in the name of savign a few bucks.

The last thing we need on the road is more newbie suspension builders who try and take on more than they can handle and another hack job hits the road.

Again dont flame me here, I am just stating an opinion and trying to stir up some intelligent conversation on the subject.

I went the M11 route because I wanted to do it myself.I could have got a Camaro sub frame and had someone else put it in,but then I would have to pay them to do the job so there goes the savings.If a sub frame job is done correctly it is just as good as an aftermarket M11.Its just a matter of personal preference.Also if you get a sub frame you will probably have to rebuild it,so I dont think the cost difference is that much.

well boys, i'll just tell ya why.
here's the story, i have a 48 chevy coupe that has had 2 camaro clips(1st was installed too high in the frame,had to raise the body to clear the ground)
2nd one drove great,sat good,a little wide though.

well, all the street rod mags said MII's were the way to go, ride great,handle great,blah,blah,blah.

so, third frame was found and a heidts crossmember was installed.
this next statement has NOTHING to do with heidts,guys.

this car has never drove worse!

it drives like a 76 mustang!
imagine that!

sheet metal was an easier fit, though....

subframes ain't for the faint of heart OR a beginner but MII's ain't cheap as THEY all need rebuilding too!
hub to hub kits aren't cheap, either.

why in this day and age do you want a 24 year old suspension that didn't work all that well 24 years ago?

1 word.
looks.

Got my MII from TCI and it works just great.Ride and handling are AOK

I rolled my truck into the shop on a saturday morning with the stock front end under it and rolled it out Saturday night with the bird clip under it. Drove much nicer than an MII front end, stronger, better steering, bigger brakes, bigger antisway arm and it cost me $150 + new bushings and a day of cutting and welding.

Sometimes there are times when it is cheaper / easier / better to use a clip, but you need to have a good welder, torch setup and grinder and know how to use them and what you are doing.

I have a firebird clip sitting in my truck barn right now that I recently picked up for free from a guy restoring a Trans-Am . . . got everthing from spindle to spindle including brakes, power steering and hydrovac from the firewall . . . someday I might do another.

dale, what other front end have you had in it?

my point was that i've had this car for over 20 years and have had two different types of front suspension(3 if you want to talk stock but i never drove it stock) and MII's suck in comparison to a gm clip.

IF i were to do it again (and i'm not), i'd use a g body(narrower) rather than a 67-69 camaro with this particular body style.

I'm always amused by the argument that the Mustang II is 'safer'. If you can't line things up straight and weld them so they stay together what difference does it make whether its a clip or a commercial kit?

If you can get a kit designed for your vehicle, and if we're talking Stovebolts you certainly can, some of the engineering is already done, but you still have all the workmanship issues and if you can't follow directions you're even worse off.

If you are paying someone to build the suspension for you, the cost may be a wash or even favor the kit, but if you're doing it yourself (provided you can) I think the opportunity to save money is still there for the careful shopper.

I have a GM G-body frame sitting in my yard, and I'm inclined to use it just because I'm tired of hearing people say its a bad idea.

Tomslik,I went from stock suspension on my 55 2nd series to the MII from TCI.It rides and handles just great.I have rode in other trucks and cars that have been sub framed.My truck rides and handles just as good as any of them,better than most.I am not running down sub framing,I am saying that I prefer the MII.Whichever way you decide to go is stictly personal choice.These other guys posting here saying the MII is a bad set up have evidently never used a MII or they are just talking thru the top of their heads.Good luck whichever way you decide to go. Dale