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| | | | Joined: May 2002 Posts: 8 Member | | Member Joined: May 2002 Posts: 8 | Gentlemen: Female here still in dire need of "How To Sub-Frame Right"...I've been getting alot of great leads...unfortunate for me...everyone is into using StangII front ends/chassis'...I'm going for the tried & true...I've already got a '79 Trans-Am cut out and awaiting proper installation into my '58 Chevy Apache truck! I've got the men to do it, it's just been a long time since either of them have tinkered with sub-framing and I've been sent on this mission to FIND OUT ALL I CAN...So I was turned onto this web site and have even played in your lounge...and I've gotten some replies...just need some info USING a GMC and NOT a Stang II...PLEASE WON'T YOU HELP?! This truck has gotta be done right! Please Please send me any leads or where to looks you can?! I know Classic Trucks did a huge how to on this but I do not know the issue # or dates so I'm S.O.L....any replies is appreciated truly! Respectfully, Denise [email protected] Please put "sub-frame" in subject box :confused: if you email me! Thanx! | | | | | Joined: Oct 2000 Posts: 804 Shop Shark | | Shop Shark Joined: Oct 2000 Posts: 804 | Denise, if you have a couple of guys who have done them, I can't see why they can't remember, was there alcohol involved?  Listen, most of it is common sense. But there where a few things that REALLY helped me a lot that I picked up. First off all to set the thing at the right ride height you can put some "all tread" in place of the shocks. Then tighten the nuts down on the rod to compress the springs down to a ride height it will have with the weight on it. Do this by measuring the distance between the rubber bumper on the control arm and the frame on a stock Camaro/Firebird. They weigh about the same 3500 lbs as your truck. So after you have the frame clip down at the riding height you can then set your truck up on jack stands at the height you want it when done. Now, when you roll up the sub frame (with the wheels you plan on using) to your frame (cut off a little after the firewall, THAT is something your guys are going to just have to figure out) you can weld it on and the truck will sit at the proper height and you won't get any surprises when you finish the truck up and put it together. Now, the next BIG thing. This is a BIGGIE that is missed by many people. You need to use an angle finder on the upper control arm shaft to find the angle it is on the STOCK Camaro/Firebird. After you have recorded this angle you HAVE to put your sub frame in with the control arms at that SAME angle. Now, the truck will have to be set up as I said at the ride height it is going to be when you weld the sub frame in using that upper control arm shaft angle. This will ensure you can align the thing when you get done. Fitting it to the frame "pretty" is NOT the most important thing, it is making it work right. GM spent a lot of money developing that front end, in fact it is one of the best ever for handling. So you need to use it EXACTLY as they did, that is why it is so important to set the control arm shafts at the correct angle. Last, just tack the sub frame on and then install the sheet metal. Sand back and look at it, look at if the wheels are centered nice in the wheel wells. This is more important than the measuring tape! You can measure and cut all you want putting the wheel base back where it was, but NOTHING is more important than this step. If you were to have it off, make the wheels too far forward, too far back, and it will look like POOP. All of the rest is pretty basic, if you need any more info don't hesitate to post!
1948 Chevy Pickup
Chopped and sectioned
owned since 1974 when I was 15.
| | | | | Joined: May 2002 Posts: 8 Member | | Member Joined: May 2002 Posts: 8 | MartinSR, You are great! No alcohol involved...they've been spending their time building race cars and dragsters these days! I just read some of your pointers on another page from back in March 2001! Seems there were alot of "heated" discussions!!! I enjoyed it! I took particular interest in your comments...and... here you are sending me pointers! You Are The Bomb! I really appreciate you! I'm certain that this input will help an old tired brain kick up it's heals and get busy on my baby! This 'ol truck of mine has so much personality I'm very anxiuos to get it complete( and out of retirement in my driveway!). As with all projects, it'll be this time next year before it's complete...but I've waited 15 years to get one...another year can't hurt! It's got it's original motor, tranny,& all...but thats soon to change too! My hubby is putting an automatic 350 trans in it...I 'm gonna be on the "different" side and have the shifter mounted in the dash...like the old Dodges have! It's a thought! I've gotta Vortex Motor that's being considered to power my baby too! The rear end is tubbed out and the tires are huge! I know that's gonna be pricy to put rubber on! My hubby & son just got me front wheels for Mother's Day too! You have truly iced my cake and "I Thank You For It"!  Respectfully, Denise | | | | | Joined: Oct 2000 Posts: 804 Shop Shark | | Shop Shark Joined: Oct 2000 Posts: 804 | Denise, after you mentioned that thread back in March 2001 I had to go back and see what you were referring to. That was one fun thread! Man I wish you could get into those discussions on the forum every day! LOL Anyway, good luck with the truck.
1948 Chevy Pickup
Chopped and sectioned
owned since 1974 when I was 15.
| | | | | Joined: Jan 2002 Posts: 398 Member | | Member Joined: Jan 2002 Posts: 398 | Hey, Denise, hows it goin? Hope your project goes well, but just a word of advice-the magazine articles rarely EVER cover all points of such a project...just think about the production variations on vehicles, that lets you know that every one is unique! I think I probably have that Custom Classic Trucks issue at home in The Archives, I'll look it up and post later. Only problem I remember with that swap was that although it was theright body style truck for you, they used a "rear steer" early Nova clip-WRONG!! hard to hook up steering, no disc brakes, poor suspension geometry, etc. Fortunately, you have the late 70's Firebird clip-much better suited to the job. Good luck, any futher questions, post 'em. Somebody here will have the answer. Wannabe
"Don't expect anything and you'll never be disappointed"
| | | | | Joined: Jun 2000 Posts: 30 Member | | Member Joined: Jun 2000 Posts: 30 | Denise...I responded to your e-mail. If you do not recieve reply here | | | | | Joined: Jun 2002 Posts: 150 'Bolter | | 'Bolter Joined: Jun 2002 Posts: 150 | Denise,
Get a copy of Chevy Truck Magazine, March 2000.
There is an article in there about clipping a '57 with a '79 Firebird clip.
The article seems to be fairly complete.
Hope this helps, and good luck with your project!
Check chevytruckmagazine.com , maybe they have a back issue program?
Mike | | | | | Joined: May 2002 Posts: 8 Member | | Member Joined: May 2002 Posts: 8 | Originally posted by MARTINSR: Denise, after you mentioned that thread back in March 2001 I had to go back and see what you were referring to. That was one fun thread! Man I wish you could get into those discussions on the forum every day! LOL Anyway, good luck with the truck. | | | | | Joined: May 2002 Posts: 8 Member | | Member Joined: May 2002 Posts: 8 | Originally posted by Denise: Originally posted by MARTINSR: [b]Denise, after you mentioned that thread back in March 2001 I had to go back and see what you were referring to. That was one fun thread! Man I wish you could get into those discussions on the forum every day! LOL Anyway, good luck with the truck. MARTINSR "I'm sure you do!" Told ya' it was heated! Thanx for everything! | | | | | Joined: May 2002 Posts: 8 Member | | Member Joined: May 2002 Posts: 8 | Originally posted by Wannabe Advance D: Hey, Denise, hows it goin? Hope your project goes well, but just a word of advice-the magazine articles rarely EVER cover all points of such a project...just think about the production variations on vehicles, that lets you know that every one is unique! I think I probably have that Custom Classic Trucks issue at home in The Archives, I'll look it up and post later. Only problem I remember with that swap was that although it was theright body style truck for you, they used a "rear steer" early Nova clip-WRONG!! hard to hook up steering, no disc brakes, poor suspension geometry, etc. Fortunately, you have the late 70's Firebird clip-much better suited to the job. Good luck, any futher questions, post 'em. Somebody here will have the answer.
Wannabe "Thanx for the input! You guys have really been awesome!" | | | | | Joined: Feb 2001 Posts: 1,897 Member | | Member Joined: Feb 2001 Posts: 1,897 | Denise,,, we do hope you are taking pics so you can post the build on the stovebolt site. . Maybe have your own article and truck in a truck mag soon!
There is enough good in the worst of us and enough bad in the best of us that it does not behoove any of us to criticize the rest of us.
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Be yourself. If you are ever lost, It will be much easier to find yourself if you know who you are!
| | | | | Joined: Apr 2000 Posts: 58 Member | | Member Joined: Apr 2000 Posts: 58 | Wannabe, think you need to check out the rear steer Nova subs. They had disc brakes. The steering just takes a little thought. Don't know where you got the idea that the geometry was bad. Now as for the front steer many times the steering box gives problems because of it's being so far forward. I woudn't care for the steering to run through the radiator or the box to stick outside the grille or fender | | | | | Joined: Jan 2002 Posts: 398 Member | | Member Joined: Jan 2002 Posts: 398 | Jack- read somewhere that it's all about suspension geometry with the earlier Nova and Camaro and Chevelle clips. Apparently, the roll center made by taking a line through the pivots of upper balljoints and A arm pivots and then the line through lower ball joints and A arm pivots ruts the intersection of these two lines WAY outside of the chassis! This apparently makes them less stable in a corner. You are right, the early Nova, Camaro etc. were available with disc brakes...it's just less common. As for the steering box location, I read an article in an older issue of Custom Classic Trucks-they swapped early Nova clip into a Task Force (1957) Chevy truck. With the front axle centered in the wheelwells, the input shaft of the steering box came up UNDER THE TOEBOARD!! It was about two inches away from where the steering column came down through the firewall. The first column they had installed went through the firewall and out past the box.... They had to switch to a shorter FWD Pontiac Grand Prix column for clearance. This info is not from personal experience, as I'm not old enough to have driven one of the first generation Camaros or Novas (although we had one of each in the family). I have driven the newer style Camaros and they drive pretty darn good, when they aren't worn out. Just my $.02-No criticism intended. I'm sure many folks have successfully used the early Camaro or Nova. Wannabe
"Don't expect anything and you'll never be disappointed"
| | | | | Joined: May 2002 Posts: 8 Member | | Member Joined: May 2002 Posts: 8 | Mechaniac, Oh yeah! I'm thinkin' the same thing! I also plan to watch, listen, learn & take notes too! Then...just maybe...I'll have something to share with the family of motorheads! Instead of crying out for help like a "girl"! Thanx for the encouragement! It will be badass when complete! When will it be "complete" is the question! It will be cruisin' the Vegas valley within a year! The trick paint works will take me a little longer to afford! But...we all are familiar with "California Suede"...aren't we?! That's what my daddie always referred to color primar as! PEACE! | | | | | Joined: May 2002 Posts: 8 Member | | Member Joined: May 2002 Posts: 8 | Jack & Wannabe Advance D;
While the subject of brakes has come up...what's your thoughts about using a (NOT 4x4) Suburban's rear brake assembly/setup?! Friend of ours has used it in his Nash and it's tight! He suggested we consider same for my truck...Thoughts?! PEACE | | | | | Joined: Jan 2002 Posts: 398 Member | | Member Joined: Jan 2002 Posts: 398 | Now this is what this place is all about, Denise! Questions brew more questions, good folks helpin' other good folks. My thoughts on the rear brake question start with a question to you-do you already have a rear axle picked out or installed in your truck? The Suburban Axle may possibly present you with width problems, not to mention that the wheel mounting bolt pattern will not match your Firebird clip. My personal opinion would be to use a late seventies Camaro or Firebird rear axle under your bed. Maybe the one under the back of your clip donor car? The width from wheel flange to wheel flange (track width) is very nearly dead on, and you will have a properly matched set of brakes all around. Hope this helps, Denise. Wannabe
"Don't expect anything and you'll never be disappointed"
| | | | | Joined: Apr 2000 Posts: 58 Member | | Member Joined: Apr 2000 Posts: 58 | Wannabe, Yes a short fwd column is a very good solution to the problem. It's what I'm running in my rear steer BBC powered coupe. Run heavy duty front and rear sway bars and the car handles like it's on rails. Tracks down the highway with no problems. Never have let it out, but have played with a Porsche at 115+. | | | | | Joined: Jan 2002 Posts: 398 Member | | Member Joined: Jan 2002 Posts: 398 | Sounds good, Jack. Just goes to prove that you shouldn't always believe what you read in the magazines... Hope you didn't think I was criticizing-I just wanted to share what I had read in hopes of helping Denise. Anything to help out someone whose "cutting up another one" as the restorers would say. Wannabe
"Don't expect anything and you'll never be disappointed"
| | | | | Joined: Apr 2000 Posts: 58 Member | | Member Joined: Apr 2000 Posts: 58 | Wannabe, nope didn't take it that way at all. Know what you mean about not believing everything you read. | | | | | Joined: May 2002 Posts: 8 Member | | Member Joined: May 2002 Posts: 8 |  Wanna B Advance D & Jack, You guys are 2 cool! You'll never believe this...but...I asked a question about brakes thinking only of what Phill (My Nash Buddy!) had suggested...& "Being me"!, I never stopped first to think about the fact that my trucks rear-end has already been tubbed and has already had a late 70's Camaro rear axel put in prior to my buying it! :o Guess who "matter of factly" reminded me?! :rolleyes: My ol' man of course! He's not polite like you guys have been! Down right abbrassive at times! He's a keeper for sure! Thanx again for the superb advise...I appreciate it lots! | | | | | Joined: Jan 2002 Posts: 398 Member | | Member Joined: Jan 2002 Posts: 398 | Any luck on the subframe yet Denise? Remember to keep us posted, and pics are always nice. Wannabe
"Don't expect anything and you'll never be disappointed"
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