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#13011 03/02/2002 2:23 AM
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I'm getting ready to rebuild my the 216 in my '46 1/2 ton and want to keep the truck mostly stock. What are the pros and cons of switching to insert bearings? Is there any reason to stay with babitt?
I don't plan on much highway driving but may do some occasionally. Any other upgrades you'd recommend while I'm at it?

#13012 03/02/2002 4:36 AM
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46 chev had only 15 lbs oil pressure and were not built to take inserts. You would have to change much more than the rods for inserts. Example ,,, Crank, oil pump, probably the block.. Nah it just ain't practical. If you want inserts just pick up a late 53 or later engine.. You can tell if they had inserts by the oil pressure gauge. Inserts max 60 lbs babbit max 30 lbs

#13013 03/02/2002 12:57 PM
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Rods with insert bearings are available for the 216 and early 235.Look through the links here on Stovebolt to find them . The 216's are fine for a stock truck and will take plently of abuse if assembled correctly.There are a few guys here with extensive 216 experience,maybe your post will flush them out.

#13014 03/02/2002 2:27 PM
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Welcome to the board, ptross!

I'm not an engine builder, but I've got tens of thousands of miles on my '52 with babbit bearings. The key is driving within the designed limits of the engine, and you'll get years of reliability, whether you switch to inserts or stay with the babbits. Inserts can't change a 216 into a 17,000 rpm Formula 1 screamer anyway, so I'd say stick with the babbits. Just my opinion.

Maybe there's a better rear end gear ratio for highway use available for your year truck. Anybody know the link to Patrick's? They make a 3.55 gear for Chevy trucks.


Matthew 6:33

1952 Chevy 1/2-ton 3100
Late '55 235/SM420/torque tube 3.55
Dalton Highway survivor (using original 216)
www.truckwithaheart.com
#13015 03/02/2002 3:08 PM
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I'm right at this point too and I've talked to a lot of knowledgable people about it and I get a different answer everytime.I've asked several VCCA people including the 216 tech guy. Some say definitely convert to insert,others say the babbit is better because of the low oil pressure it helps dissipate the heat better.This is because the babbit is poured on the rod ,not a separate piece like an insert bearing. One problem with the babbit is finding someone who does it correctly, since the babbit can separate from the rod if not done right. Scott, I assume you've had your's rebuilt,Who did the rods?

#13016 03/02/2002 3:24 PM
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Rebuilt my 216 in 1992 and was able to get new ones from Jim Carters (undersized .010 to fit my reground crank). That was 10 yrs ago, so you might want to check their catalog or give them a call and see if they can still do it. Sent them my old rods as core.


Matthew 6:33

1952 Chevy 1/2-ton 3100
Late '55 235/SM420/torque tube 3.55
Dalton Highway survivor (using original 216)
www.truckwithaheart.com
#13017 03/02/2002 11:04 PM
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#13018 03/02/2002 11:30 PM
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Quote
Originally posted by lil' johnny:
The lubrication on your 216(dipper/squirt/trough) stays the same regardless of machined inserts or poured bearings.

My 1947 235 has babbitt poured.
My 1952 235 has .020 inserts machined into the old babbitt rods.
My 1954 has the first of the Chevy factory inserts.
My 1957 235 has stock inserts.

The lesson I have learned is to look at your CRANK first.
If it is in good condition then either inserts or babbitt is a 50/50 proposition. PRICE is the biggest factor, not material properties of babbitt vs. inserts.

In general babbitt is 'gentler' on the crank but needs occasional adjusting (un-shimming).
Inserts are a bit tougher on the crank (not much) but can't be adjusted and therefore must be replaced. Then the crank may need polishing etc.

As far as heat dissipation. Well heck thats mostly done by the oil anyway and these old Stoveblots aren't the spaceshuttle.

Its more of an issue of cost, workmanship, and potential wear that's very important.

Babbitt will last forever in a restored truck if its treated like an antique, no super loads or super long high speed runs. Use Non-detergent oil, change oil often. Adjust periodically.

Inserts are A-OK too. They are more common cause lots of guys know how to replace them. BUT the machining of the rods is where a lot of guys screw up!

Best advice I can offer is to compare the prices and shop knowledge. The machine shops in my area "said" they knew how to "insert" into the rods but I found out they didn't even have the tools, or the measurements, for the trough/squirt/dipper settings. GET a QUALITY shop to do the work. Someone who knows the procedure. It is not as simple as it looks and a shop has to understand HOW your 216 works not just HOW to machine-out a rod. Beware shops that want to alter your oiling system, it takes a super pro Stovebolt-lover to do it right!!

Bob Adler recommneded a place to me called:
Paul's Rod Bearing (antique bearing specialist)
6212 NW Bell Rd
Parkville, MO 64152-0398
tele; 816-587-4747

I haven't tried them, but heard only good referals so far. Maybe another Stovebolter has a referal for babbitt pouring to get ya a ballpark price for your 216. Then you can compare the prices.
FOR MORE INFORMATION REGISTER AT THIS VCCA SITES CHAT FORUM TO GET MORE INFORMATION:
VCCA CHEVY SITE

#13019 03/03/2002 12:29 AM
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Thanks guys for the advice and info. I admit I've had the same experience with getting different opinions from everyone I ask. Sounds like some of you have had good performance with babbit if it's done by the right shop. Someone told me that babbit would absorb a little grit rather than tear up the crank. Any truth to this? I'm running the bypass type oil filter and wonder if that might make a difference in the choice of babbit vs inserts?

#13020 03/03/2002 1:55 AM
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Paul's Rod and Bearing in MO is a good shop. Guy name Russ is running it now, I recommend him. Jim Carter uses this shop has their source for rods, and I orginally used him for rods, but Carter's customer service leaves a lot to be desired. It took numerous tries to get the proper rods, ended up talking with Russ and getting what I needed directly from him.

#13021 03/03/2002 6:22 AM
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ptross,
In most any issue of friction between a bearing surface and a journal one object must be "sacrificial". In other words, one part has to take the brunt of wear and 'sacrifice' itself away so that the other part isn't destroyed at the same rate. In common practice the Crank is a very expensive part to produce and therefore the bearings are made to sacrifice themselves and hopefully cost less to repair than the crank.

Babbitt alloys have been perfect for this sacrificial use for over 100 years. But babbitt alloys (there are over 20+ used in cars) are becoming a labor intensive and lost art.

My 1952 has the so-called "bypass" filter and you should see the high flow of oil to the filter canister when I crank the oil pump with a power drill. LOTS of oil!!! But the bypass doesnt work as good when the filter media starts to get dirtier , especially as a result of detergent oil. Non-detergent and a by-pass filter will work just fine IF you change the oil and filter very frequently.

Matter of fact, old car/truck motors seldom ran any filter till late 1940's and early 1950's and then only then as an option or aftermarket item.

A by-pass filter used with either insert or babbitt will be better than what was sent NEW from Chevy in most AD trucks!

FOR MORE INFORMATION TRY THIS GREAT SITE AND SIGN UP FOR THE CHAT FORUM!!:
VCCA CHEVY SITE

#13022 03/03/2002 1:07 PM
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Whats the deal with non detergent oil and babbit bearings? I know of several old 216 engines driven on a regular basis using detergent oil and seem to have no problems. Have any of you had an actual experience of the babbit failing due to detergent oil? Are the replaceable mains in a 216 also babbit?

#13023 03/03/2002 1:56 PM
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I also question the statement that non-detergent oil should be used. Today's oil is a lot more technologically advanced than the oil that was originally used in these trucks. I think modern oil will help extend the life of these truck engines. I for one am not going to follow the instructions in the owners manual that says I should add kerosene to the oil in winter!

The main bearings were inserts, not babbit, at least in my 49. I am not sure of 46 models.

#13024 03/03/2002 2:33 PM
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Ive been researching this too and it seems to be a personell preference.some tell me inserts others say rebabit.I posted the question on jim carters ask jim knowing that both options were avalable from carter.His sugjestion was to go with the inserts.Ive put my 216 rebuild on hold untill im sure whitch route to go.As for the oil question in an old and dirty engine use nondetergent to keep the crud where it is.In a clean or rebuilt engine you can use a detergent oil.


1942 1\2 Ton
1951 1\2 Ton 55 willys cj-5
1954 and 59 Cushman Scooter
1960 Biscayne Sedan
1965 G/10 panel van
1966 C/30 Grizzly Motorhome
You know you're a 'Bolter when your daily driver is older than you are...
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#13025 03/03/2002 9:06 PM
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Try going to www.inliners.org and look at the links section. There are a couple of machine shops there that specialize in what you are looking for.

#13026 03/03/2002 9:13 PM
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Well... Metallurgically speaking..babbitt is a general term for an alloy of copper, tin, and antimony known as a babbitt bronze. But there are thousands of different types of babbitt alloys based on the ratios of these elements and other elements (Pb)that give babbitt different hardness/wear etc. properties.

Babbitt can be poured into a hole and used for a bearing, OR babbitt can be made into an insert, metal coated, and slip fitted into a hole. Its all babbitt.

Babbitt, as used on a type of main bearing insert can even be coated with an outer layer of a harder/softer metal alloy and thus when you see wear it looks like "copper' showing thru the outer layer in streaks. It is known as a "babbitt insert" cause that's the general metal alloy the center of the insert is made from. Babbitt can even be an outside coating on a bearing!

In the 1950's days the mechanic would not need to pour the babbitt into the rods himself; he would send out a core exchange of the old rods for a new set of rods poured in a factory.

He would just replace the babbitt main bearing inserts with new ones as he does today!

As far a Detergent versus Non-detergent, well "Search" this site and the debate rages! But in general, if you look at the "oil clearance specifications" on the rod bearings from Chevrolet you will see the following:

1941-42 .001-.0025
1946-51 .0003-.0013
1952-53 .0003-.0013
All the above babbitt rods and low pressure high flow OIL system.

Then with full oil pressure and rod "inserts".
1954-55 .0007-.0025

The point being the clearance opens up with factory inserts high psi oil pressure. The factory inserts are a different hardness than the poured babbitt and any dirt potentially impregnating itself "in-the-bearing" should theoretically get trapped in a full pressure oil filter first. If not, the insert must be changed as it wears beyond spec. Slap in a new one.

Babbitt rod clearance is pretty tight and dirty oil on a soft bearing is a case for impregnation. Thats exactly GOOD for the Crank journal, to have a 'little' dirt imbedded/incased into the rod bearing INSTEAD of the crank journal. If dirt gets stuck somewhere, better imbedded into the bearing and thus the bearing 'sacrifices' itself. Un-shim the rod caps to take up for wear.

BUT unfiltered/half filtered detergent oil passes a LOT of dirt passed a babbitt rod bearing.

Detergent oil has additives and scrubbers that "clean-up" ALL the engine sludge/dirt and deposit them in an OIL FILTER under relativeley HIGH pressure.

Non-detergent 'lightly suspends' the dirt into the oil, and drops it into the pan, but does'nt scrub it free from surfaces. You clean the suspended dirt out when you change the oil with fresh oil, VERY OFTEN, or the dirt gets to be too much for the oil to carry. (old mechanics then cleaned the other waxy engine gunk from the engine with a flush of Kerosene or diesel)

Old pre-1954 216-235 Chevy engines were NOT designed to filter oil and thus where does the dirt from detergent oil go? Round and round your bearings till ya change it.

Non-detergent tends to leave (drop out)the waxy-dirt stuck to the valve covers, oil pan , etc. INSTEAD of breaking so much free and passing it thru the bearing surfaces.

In short CHANGE any type oil a LOT!. It is a 50/50 trade-off to break the dirt free or leave it in place, and will always be a controversial trade-off in old engines. WE are in between the Devil-and-the-deep-blue-sea when it comes to oil types.

Finally, some folks are a tiny bit concerned about the additives in "modern" oils and their effects on the old babbitt alloys. Little professional research is done in the labs, but it is known that some chemicals can attack and cause babbitt to "bloom" (ie expand) and then crack and spaul. This happens when antifreeze gets into your oil!
I can find NO evidence that new oil additives attack the babbitt, BUT I follow the ancient wisdom of master-mechanics and advise new babbitt alloy rods to use non-detergent oil and change very often. BECAUSE babbitt rod rebuilding is becoming a lost art; and babbitt rods were designed for non-detergent; and the effects of non-detergent oil are well known with regards to babbitt, ...and the old men mechanics told me so.

New oils may be better, they may be perfect for babbitt, I just cant find and professional research sources that say yes or no. So in a fresh/clean rebuild use either detergent or non and change the heck out of either and thus hedge your bets! Clean oil passing around the bearings is what is important !

Finally, as far as Kerosene in winter oil, there was no Winter weight oil (10w-30) way back then, and if you didn't thin your oil then you lost your engine. Worst enemy to an old Stovebolt was not getting oil to the bearings&rockers on start-up.
Warm your Stovebolt up to operating temp in winter or suffer much wear and even gasoline into the oil cause of the hand choke.

FOR MORE INFORMATION SEE THIS GREAT SITE:
VCCA CHEVY SITE

#13027 03/06/2002 5:15 AM
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Thanks for all of you that offered information and suggestions. As I hoped, you've given me much more to think about than I realized was available. I'll let you know what happens with the rebuild, though it's probably several months away. I've become a fan of this site and am passing it on to friends.
Peter

#13028 03/08/2002 11:00 PM
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Non Detergent effects on Babbit? I don't know but we ran a 52 Chev 1 1/2 Ton truck with a 216 and Babbit for years on detergent and had no problem with the Babbit. However we did use a good grade of Detergent oil and changed it frequently. The biggest thing to remember was you couldn't wind the engine up. RPM is Babbit bearings biggest killer (unless you have a head gasket leak and get antifreeze in the oil which will knock out bearings in no time). As long as you change teh oil and filter often you don't have to worry about plugging up the filter. Besides if you are plugging up the filter you sure are not changing the oil ofter enough. On a good engine that has been rebuilt and in good condition the oil shoul only be slightly colored when you change it. If it is black you have definitely waited to long to change. The new cars and trucks have better oil filtration and air filters that the old engines. A paper filter filters out a much higher percentage of dirt from the air than an oil bath. As long as you don't wind a babbit beater very tight and keep the oil clean they will do OK If you use dirty oil and let the dirt help wear out the babbit and let them get loose where the rods hammer it they won't last long. As long as there is a good cushin of oil between the crank and the clearance between the babbit and crank is ok the babbit won't beat out and the crank and babbit won't wear. but any dirt will act as sandpaper and wear both surfaces but this happen on both babbit and inserts (which by the way has a thin layer of babbit on it to ach as a sacrificial material if the oil is dirty or on dry starts so the crank isn't damaged) Just remember these engines wern't designed for interstate, 40 to 45 MPH were the typical sppeds back then and the leadfoots might push it for a while before they threw a rod.


Kenneth L. Hollingsworth
#13029 03/09/2002 1:12 AM
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Actually, the oil bath air filter is far superior to a paper air filter, as long as you maintain the filter properly.


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#13030 03/09/2002 3:46 AM
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Someone was wanting the link to Patricks.

www.patricksantiquecars.com


Moderated by  Phak1, Woogeroo 

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