The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area The Electrical Bay '50 3100 won't turn off

Wondering if anyone has made a similar mistake or can make any recommendations. I pulled out the 216 and put in a 235. Started and ran nicely. The wiring was original and heavily spliced so I pulled it out and replaced it with an original style '53 harness (already had it laying around). It starts up nicely, lights work, horn honks as expected. Important note - It will not start if the ignition is not on. Once it is running, when I turn the key to off it keeps running without missing a beat. I unhook the battery (both positive and negative) and it still keeps running without missing a beat. Yes, it still has the original generator. The only way I can get it to stop is to smother the carb. Clearly I've done something wrong. Oh yeah, I replaced the ignition switch to no avail. Sound familiar to anyone? Thanks in advance.

This has been discussed before but I’ll be darned if I can find it with a search. Someone will be along with the simple fix soon I hope.🛠

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dieseling

My first guess is #3, incorrect timing.

COWayne, How did you set the timing?

Thanks Martin, I've searched and searched and could not find anything either - knew it was unlikely I would be the first one with such a problem.

Hi Tim, I didn't touch the timing between it running well with the poor wiring and installation of the new wiring, so I believe that is still good. I believe it is quite normal for a generator car to keep running after the battery is removed.

The only way this can happen is by still having 6V at the coil after you've turned the ignition switch to off. Unless it is dieseling as Tim has suggested, but you said it still runs without missing a beat, so that does not sound like dieseling to me.
So if it won't start with the ignition switch in the off position then you are still using the foot stomp starter system, right?
This is a 6V system right, not a 12V conversion with the extra wire going from the side terminal on the starter to the coil is it?
With the wiring harness change you talked about I'm guessing you've got the generator supplying voltage to the coil. So even after you turn it "off" and unplug the battery, the generator is providing voltage to the coil.
Get the engine off, disconnect the battery, get out your ohmmeter and check to see if your harness replacement has enabled the generator to supply voltage to the coil.

"I believe it is quite normal for a generator car to keep running after the battery is removed."

Have you removed the battery?

What kind of starter/connections do you have?

What leads (and from where) do you have going to the coil & distributor?

Ronnie, The foot stomp is removed, but it has a push button on the dash as a replacement.
When I got the truck it was already converted to 12v.
Extra wire going from the side terminal on the starter to the coil is it? - I don't know about this wire. The negative of the coil goes to the distributor, the positive side of the coil goes to the key side of the ignition switch.

With the wiring harness change you talked about I'm guessing you've got the generator supplying voltage to the coil. So even after you turn it "off" and unplug the battery, the generator is providing voltage to the coil. - Like you say, somehow it must? Just don't know how?

Get the engine off, disconnect the battery, get out your ohmmeter and check to see if your harness replacement has enabled the generator to supply voltage to the coil. - I am thinking with the engine off, and the ignition off - check for voltage at the coil. With the ignition on, but the engine off - check voltage at the coil. Turn off the ignition and check again. Is there something more you can think of? Thanks.

Tim - When I turn it off and it continues to run as normal I unhook both terminals at the battery - assuming it would stop.

Wires:
Battery to solenoid - wire from that terminal goes to left side of push button starter - wire from that terminal goes to hot side of ignition switch
wire from right side of push button starter goes to opposite side of solenoid

Wire from positive side of coil goes to keyed side of ignition.
Wire from negative side of coil goes to distributor

Wire harness takes over with two hot wires from the key side of ignition going to gauges and out to engine from there.

Thanks for you time on this.

Just for the heck of it: "How did you set the timing?"

Tim, Actually the engine came out of a running truck and I drove it with the old wiring in my truck to the gas station and back and it ran quite well. I haven't touched the timing.

Wayne,

Do you have a vacuum gauge or a timing light. The timing is easy to set, and, if it is off, dieseling occurs.

Check/set the timing, and then that possibility is eliminated.

Try this for troubleshooting.
1. Remove all wires from the + side of the coil
2. temporarily run a jumper from + battery post to + on the coil, and start it
3. disconnect the wire from step 2. It should shut off.

assuming that works fine, do you have any other wires on the switched side of the ig. switch? I am assuming that feeds part of your fuse box. Isolate the wire going from the key switch to + coil (may need to temporarily run a new one) and make sure it starts and stops correctly.

I think your generator output is feeding back through the switched side of your fuse box.

Tim - I do have the timing stuff - I will check it.

Mike, Excellent idea, I will give that a try tomorrow.

I converted a boat to a Delco alternator years ago. I had the same issue, I had install a diode on the terminal that goes to the ignition switch.

Is the ignition switch stock? If it is, remove all of the wires from it and use an ohmmeter to double check that it is functional and also make sure that you have the wires on the correct terminals. Make sure that all of the wires which were on the switch actually belong on the switch. It seems like you have the ignition wire hot-wired to the main power lead which feeds the generator. Probably at an ignition switch terminal.

It sounds like Tim, 52Carl, Mike , and Whitedog have given you great information to work with.

I am a little curious though, you indicated that you have a 12V Generator, and 12V solenoid operated starter with a push button starter system.

It sounds like you do not have a ballast resistor to drop the 12V to 6V for your original stock distributor which uses points ? Maybe I missed something and you have a 12V HEI system. If so, ignore the rest of my post because its not relevant.

Where I'm going with this is on 12V conversions there is usually a ballast resistor. The wire from the ignition switch (on) goes to the ballast resistor, wire from other side of ballast resistor goes to the + side of the coil. An additional wire is ran from the S terminal on the starter solenoid to the + side of the coil. The S terminal enables a full 12V to go to the coil when initially starting the motor and provides additional spark for starting. Once the starter disengages ( you let off the button ) the S terminal is disconnected and the supplied voltage drops back to the normal reduced voltage from the ballast resistor to the coil.

I was looking for areas in which to consider wiring issues.

Please let us know what you find as knowledge is power and every learning experience helps.

Ok, I've been out doing a bunch of the recommendations here so let me clarify a few things:

The truck was converted to12v by someone else a long time ago.
I put the 235 engine in with the original ratty wires and it ran and turned off just fine.
I put in a new wiring harness and it won't turn off.

Three wires go to the key side of the ignition. One to the + coil, one to amp meter and one to fuel tank.
If I remove the wire to the amp meter it turns on AND off just fine. No dieseling or run on of any type so not the timing.
I believe that somewhere I have a wire in the wrong place - and it is coming off the amp meter. The lights seem to work correctly but I'm guessing I have something wrong at the light switch, voltage regulator, or generator? One more thing that is really troubling - when the engine is running - switch on or off - the voltage at the coil is running around 32 volts. UGH.

Ronnie - I think it does have the original distributor, certainly not an HEI. So the ballast resistor wire may have been overlooked. I best look into that in more detail. It has a12-volt coil, but there is no ballast resistor between the coil and the distributor. -- EDIT: Oops somehow I forgot to mention the 235 came from a 1960 Apache so it was originally 12v.

The coil very well may be internally resistered. It will say on the coil. Amp gauge fed from the generator? Probably as you say, wire in the wrong spot. Your on the right track.🛠

Wayne,
Ok , you should have a 10g red wire on one terminal of the ignition switch that runs to the ammeter. On the other terminal two pink wires, one runs to the gas gauge and the other runs to the + of the coil. If you want to PM me, i'll give you my phone number, maybe I can help, maybe. Do you have a wiring diagram for your truck?

Unhook the battery! Start over with the rewiring of the truck. You have some seriously misplaced wires, probably more one place. If you are not up for the task, swallow your pride and get some help. I don't want to read about another guy who burnt his truck up.

Wayne,
I just realized the wire colors on the 50' are different that my 54', however I don't know anything about your replacement wire harness so maybe I need to not say anything else at this point as it may make things worse. PM me if you want to discuss the issue.

Hi all, I just had a long talk with a board member and have several things to try tomorrow. We all hate a story without an ending, so I'll keep everyone posted as to what happens. Thanks to everyone for your help and guidance.

It appears that the problem is isolated and resolved. I replaced the voltage regulator and the truck turned on and off correctly three times in a row. I found this comment - probably on this board - "A generator regulator has three functions, disconnecting the battery from the generator on shutdown or anytime the generator voltage falls below battery voltage (cutout relay), controlling maximum current (current regulator), and controlling maximum voltage (voltage regulator). It takes three magnetic coils and three adjustment procedures to accomplish this." - and I keyed on the one sentence "disconnecting the battery from the generator on shutdown" Thanks again for all the help and advice everyone - this was a weird problem. For now we will mark this issue as fixed. - GREAT article on engine that won't turn off - http://www.chevyhardcore.com/news/t...-a-voltage-regulator-on-a-vintage-chevy/

Wayne,

Thanks for posting your solution. It might help someone in the future.

I could be wrong, and I was once already today, just ask my wife, but that sure sounds like a HRL explanation of the voltage regulator function.🛠

Glad the problem is resolved. It's amazing how the simplest things can drive you nuts.

Care to disclose who the "board member" was? Is he shy? Reserved? Or has HRL turned over a new leaf?

I do believe that excellent explanation on the voltage regulator was HRL, from a different post. Ronnie and I spoke about several troubleshooting approaches. Everyone that contributed was very helpful. Thank you again.

IMPORTANT POINT - in my problem it was NOT getting a new voltage regulator that solved the problem. It was having the voltage regulator properly insulated from the firewall. So, I guess the check is to verify that you have no continuity from the VR to the firewall. One of the little rubber pieces on the screw that attached the old VR to the firewall dried out and allowed the screw to contact the VR case. Case closed. Thanks again for all the help team.