The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area Engine Shop Old gasoline controversy

Every once in a while someone will chime in with a knock on using fuel older than a
few months and all the trouble that it causes.
To that I say..............BUNK!!!!!
I started an experiment way back in 2013 to test out this myth. I took samples of E-85 which
is all we've had in this part of the country for decades, and stored it in a variety of different ways.
I had the samples sitting out in the sun for the whole first summer. The open container eventually
evaporated, the sealed containers changed color. I saw no settling or separation and in the evaporated
sample there was no residue left in the jar.
This photo is what is left of the 20 gallons that was in my 1997 GMC when I parked it in 2013.
I recently, this past month, drained it out to begin work on the truck to get it running again:
http://www.pbase.com/dennygraham/image/166516193/large
What do you do with 20 gallons of four year old, supposedly "stale" E-85???? Well you burn it in your
new Silverado, that's what you do with it. I've been adding it a couple of gallons at a time when I fill up
my 2014 Chevy with no ill effects. I also used some of it in my lawn mower this fall, which also ran fine.
The photo is of the last couple of gallons. So.... that was fifty bucks worth of fuel that I didn't have to
waste away in my brush fire..
So much for the myth that fuel goes bad and is unusable after a few months. And by the way, that
20 gallons from the GMC did not have Sta-bil in it when it got parked in 2013.
Denny Graham
Sandwich, IL

Got to credit chuckthetruck with correcting my posting E-85 when I meant 10% alcohol. Thanks Chuck.

Good morning, Denny

I'll add a double-bunk. I have had no problems in 20 years, even if I forget the STA-BIL before winter hibernation (as I did this year). However, maybe a clean tank-interior and SS lines make a difference in crud accumulation?

3:38 am - before or after time change?
Was that before you went to bed, or after your night's sleep?

I agree that just a few months is bunk. However at some time it will turn bad. The gas left in my '38 was thick varnish but it had been parked in the early 80's. If someone is parking their vehicle over the winter they are probably safe without an additive but adding some Sta-bil won't hurt if it makes them feel better.

My truck runs so infrequently that I’ve gone to using no ethanol gas. One station in town sells it. Even if there are no worries about the ethanol blend going bad, it makes me feel like maybe I’m preserving some rubber parts.

I'm with JW.
Non ethanol in all motors from chainsaws, mowers to dirt bikes.
Anything that may be parked for more than three months to three years.
Never had any problems.
Here is a site to find a station in your area.
https://www.pure-gas.org/

Don

the biggest problem that I can think of is the alcohol absorbs water, and will eventually contribute to the tank rusting, however a bit of two stroke oil seems to counteract that. My dad figured that out with the lawn mower he used the weedeater gas in the mower too, and the tank never rusted out like they did before he started using the weedeater gas.

I think climate has a lot to do with it and time stored. My dad had continuous trouble in his boat. He had a bad habit of adding alky fuel(cheaper) topping off the tanks without running it through. Eventually all three tanks had its fuel separate and had to be drained and discarded. I had to jet up the old rochester's main metering because of the 10% alky though. That is the only drawback. I like to run midgrade in the stihl products and the riding lawn mower or anything stored in the shed in this wet climate( rains constant from Nov. to April.

The climate is so humid in my area that we nearly need to mow the shady side of the house from the green funk which grows on it.
Small engine and boat engine shops stay very busy due to water in fuel and rubber deterioration here.
I agree with the possibility that relative humidity plays a part in the break down of whatever is in the fuel which is sold these days.

Adding a small quantity of Diesel fuel seems to accomplish the same thing as the pricey gasoline stabilizers, and also acts as a rust inhibitor. No more than 5% by volume, however. 1 gallon of Diesel to 19 gallons of gas is a good rule of thumb for a 5% mix.
Jerry

First hand experience with Ethanol...... if you leave it in the carburator of your standby generator for more than 90 days the generator will not start and the carb will have to be cleaned. No if's ands or buts, it's just plain carp!

Be careful on that if you run 5% diesel mixture, you lower the octane about 2.5 points, so you might think of buying a mid grade fuel then.

I have pulled a couple of tanks off of some early sixties cars, and found tar-like deposits in them. On a '64 Skylark I found a tank full of deposits and pebbles made of tar... some of them were the size of a marble! The smaller ones were making their way into the fuel line with a busted pick-up screen and causing some serious havoc. I have no idea what caused this.

I have also seen some heavy varnish in old motorcycle carbs.

Perhaps this is a thing of the past due to additives now being used?

Also, I have experienced that the difference in mileage between ethanol and non-ethanal fuel is measurable, and used to buy ethanol free fuel when I lived near a station that sold it.

Thanks, Jerry

How/why does the Diesel work - it must have water an absorbant quality? (I could look it up, but we have you for answers.)

Forgive my laziness/stupidity, but, here is a practical question: how would you go about getting approximately 5% at the fuel pump (one that serves gas and diesel is near my house)? Usually, I fill up when I need 12-14 gallons (standard 16 gallon tank). In my quick Internet searching it looks like 10% diesel should be no problem (and less than 5% would, of course, be no problem).

So, if I am filling-up when my gauge nears empty (it is imprecise, so that means 12-14 gallons low), just add the 1 gallon and rest easy at night?

Thanks, again,

I have a LOT of respect for both Denny and Tim, so will not post a rebuttal; however, I disagree on the issue of fuel going bad (E0, and E10; have never used E85).

Jon.

Jon,

Your respect is unwarranted (in my case) but appreciated. (you are the expert/professional - I am basically a hack)

As I posted in the second post (in agreement with Denny), I have also not/never had modern gasoline go bad. I was just wondering (in a later post) about the diesel suggestion by HrL.

Do you disagree about those modern fuels going bad, or not going bad?
Is there a negative associated with adding 5% diesel to gasoline? (or, is it just unnecessary?)

On a related topic: Maybe you could quickly comment, again, regarding old carburetors' gaskets/seals being affected by modern fuels (ethanol)?

"Accelerator pumps — in the good old days, accelerator pumps were made from leather. Somewhere along the way it was determined that accelerator pumps could be made much cheaper with neoprene, rather than leather skirts. BE (Before Ethanol) the neoprene pump would last maybe 3~5 years, while leather will last indefinitely. Neoprene pumps used with ethanol will fail rather quickly, while the leather pump will still last indefinitely. If at all possible, purchase kits with leather pumps. In fact, if your old accelerator pump is leather, try soaking it in light machine oil rather than replacing it with a modern neoprene pump." (I have edited that clearly-stated and helpful quote a little - spelling.)

http://www.thecarburetorshop.com/Troubleshooting.htm

Thanks,

Tim - I have personally had very bad issues with fuel going bad, not to mention the thousands of customers over the years. I have never used E85, so can make no comment on Denny's post about E85.

But I have had gasoline (E10) in a John Deere tractor go so bad (after roughly 1 year) that it was necessary to artificially warm the engine, start the engine on ether, and then the fuel would "burn". Also issue with modern E0. Many bad experiences with small engines (lawn & garden tractors, weed-eaters, chain saws, etc.). Since I don't use all of these tools on a timely basis, I finally tired of the "curse the fuel, drain the fuel, rebuild the carburetor" routine, and bought a generator which I permanently fixed in a two wheel trailer that I pull behind the lawn & garden tractor used most often. Purchased electric chain saw, electric weed eater, electric trimmers, etc. Now I don't have to worry about the garbage fuel.

Fortunately, we now have a station here in Eldon with 88 octane E0. A little over a year ago, purchased a "flex fuel" vehicle, and decided to do a test.

87 octane E10 averages 10 percent less costs than 88 octane E0. BUT USING 87 OCTANE FUEL IN THE FLEX FUEL VEHICLE RESULTED IN AN AVERAGE 14 PERCENT REDUCTION IN FUEL ECONOMY!

I buy the 88 octane E0 for use in everything. IT STILL WILL GO BAD OVER A YEAR OR SO! Just not as fast as the ethanol fuel.

As to older components in carburetors: MOST of todays components are more or less compatible with ethanol. Leather is STILL the preferred material for accelerator pumps (so far, man has not been able to make an exotic material for ethanol than the underside of a cow!!!). But some carburetors (i.e. Carter type YF, and others) have a diaphragm accelerator pump. There are NO ethanol friendly neopremes that I have found. The best way to minimize issues with neopreme components is to start the engine sufficiently often to keep the fuel from evaporating. The diaphragm seems to harden after once being in ethanol, and then allowed to dry. And of course, the hardened diaphragm will fail due to cracking when it flexes.

And I still would recommend checking an old accelerator pump before replacing. A 50 year-old leather pump is much superior to any of the pumps made from artificial material. Soak the pump overnight in a baby food jar with light machine oil covering the leather cup.

The ability of ethanol to absorb water will cause eventual (maybe 25~30 year) failure of zinc alloy castings. But doubt seriously that I will be around to see these failures. But I have seen many carburetors with zinc castings from the 1930's (remember, every other generation has to learn that which MADD preach - alcohol and gasoline do not mix ) which have holes in the bottom of the fuel bowl. There was a lot of alcohol fuel being used in the 1930's and 1910's.

Jon.

Tim, I discovered the Diesel/gas mixture as a method of increasing the octane rating a bit on the low-compression race engines we were forced to run as a cost-cutting feature of the race association at the Nashville Fairgrounds track. The "super-Stock" class dictated a compression ratio of no more than 9:1 mostly as a hedge against the very radical engine builds the deep-pocket sponsors could afford. Then the track officials, in their infinite wisdom, decided to make all of us buy the 102 octane gas the track sold, which was intended for 12:1 compression engines. It burned WAY too slow to run right in the lower compression engines. We discovered that a mix of plain old pump premium gasoline with 5% Diesel mixed in had the right burn rate for best performance. Adding a slower-burning fuel such as Diesel actually raises the octane rating slightly due to increasing the specific gravity (and slowing down the burn) of gasoline. 87 Octane regular gas is the fastest-burning grade. By slowing down the burn, the octane rating increases and the anti-knock tendencies improve. Diesel fuel also has more BTU's per gallon than gasoline. At one time, I had a huge number of dyno test data sheets to document the power increases and the ability to run more ignition timing advance with the Diesel-mix gasoline but those went away when an assistant principal at the school where I taught decided to trash some "old" files from my shop storage area!

One problem was duplicating the color of the blue dye the track added to the gas they sold so they could take a sample from our cars and fine us for using gasoline not purchased from the track. I found that adding a little machinists' DYKEM layout blue made it exactly the right color!
Jerry

Thanks for the info, and the history, Jerry

I think I have nothing to lose by trying the ~5% addition of diesel.

Jon,

I have never had "regular" (lowest cost) gas go bad - but, for the last 20 years my "stovebolts" have had a fill-up of standard gas at least every 6 months.

Got up early Tim. Have been pushing my old bod to the limit lately and crashing right
after supper, which means I’m out on the couch by 6 or 6:30 in the evening. But that
means I hit a sleep cycle bout 02:00. Besides the mutt need to take a walk about that
time and I need to tap a…you know what. Then I can’t get back to sleep so by the time
I check my email and the forums here and at the Cyclekart site. Then it’s time for a coffee
and time to head out to the barn for an early start.
Sound crazy but I’ve been an early riser most of my life.

Had nothing but E-10 in everything for at least a couple of decades now Don. Never ever
had a problem. Some motors like the pressure washer, generator, tiller and even the snow
blower have always started after setting for one or two seasons.

Got metal tanks on the 30 year old Briggs that powers the snow blower Broken, also on the
Briggs that drives my TrackVac about from the same era, maybe even older. Never saw
any rust in either of them.

Justhorsenround, don’t know why you have such bad luck. The last owner left me the
7000 watt Colman generator with a starter when we moved in here 6 years ago. I’ve only
run it a few times and that was not long enough to run out the old fuel that was in it. Always
starts right up and runs just fine. It’s gotta be close to 20 years old.

And Jon, I have known you and dealt with you for many years now, so I respect your
opinion. It may have something to do with the area that the fuel is coming from but I’ve
seriously never had a problem with E-10 fuel that has sat in a closed container for several
years. The samples that I have had in jars from 2013 have not separated. Now fuel sitting
in a tank or fuel system for 30 or 40 years no doubt would go sour, and the old gasoline
might well have turned gummy and left residue behind. I’ve not had any problems with the
W-1 Carter carbs that I rebuilt for my 216 or a friends truck. I rebuilt mine using parts from
you almost 10 years ago and it often sets during a bad winter for 4 or 5 months.
What this thread is about, is that it’s been my experience that fuel that’s a year old or two or
three is still quite usable as long as it’s in a sealed container and not left open to the
atmosphere. I also made a correction Jon, I meant 10% alky not E-85. All of my experience
has been with the regular E-10.

So….this is the end for me. I’ve stated my experience with gasoline with 10% alky in it and
if you’re having problems with your fuel thats more than three months old, it’s got me
baffled.

Past my bed time, Night all... !!!
DG

I appreciate your input DG, even though it was so long-winded that I need to go lay down now.
One thing that your experience of the lack of problems brings to mind for me is that a lot of people who have engine issues have a knee jerk reaction to blame the danged 10 %.
A similar reaction was even more vehement back in the days of the advent of unleaded fuel. Remember all of the tales of a single tankful of leaded gas in an unleaded engine, or vise versa would destroy your engine?
Carl

Slowing the flame front will have an "effect" (control knock)similar to raising the octane but it isn't in effect raising the octane of the combined fuel. I believe diesel has an octane rating of 45 so you are right about the slow burn but no it is not raising the octane.
Respectfully said.

Dyno tests beat verbal semantics every time.
Jerry

Agree Jerry, but it isn't semantics or a play on words, it was misinformation, sorry.

What does your dyno show?
Jerry

I am not doubting the dyno or the power you made, what I'm saying is that the diesel mixture to the fuel did not increase the octane of the gas/diesel mixture, it slowed the speed of combustion allowing you to run more ignition lead. Diesel has a horrible octane number, those darn diesels spend half their life knocking.

Now guys can made insane power by adding propane to their diesel engine by doing just that, meaning enhancing the octane value.

I was on a research team 35 years ago, investigating Propane injection for Diesels. We dismissed it as impractical then, and it still doesn't impress me, regardless of all the hype surrounding it. The dyno didn't lie about that situation, either. Isn't your dead horse getting a little bit worn out by now?
Jerry