The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area Engine Shop initial start problems

Tim,

If you can take a pic and post it, I am sure some of the experts can easily identify what carb you have on your truck.

I am such a newbie on this stuff, but I have rebuilt my Rochester B carb a couple of times and it was actually pretty simple. I just took pictures along the way and followed the instructions.

good time to put a 4 barrel on it, give it a little extra juice

As said , it is simple, as Bruce said. Just takes a good cleaning and follow instructions. It's probably a B family Rochester. Mikes carburetors website has videos on identification and rebuilding. You can send him pics and he will answer you, I have emailed him before. Start searching B carbs and see if it is one. You have said you think it's flooding. Maybe that's it. I was always thinking starving.

Just a thought on that issue: If your pump is putting out more than about 3.5-4 PSI, that's bad. You will overpower the valve and flood. But I guess you bought the correct pump.

Like Bruce said, post pics. Can't believe there are no numbers or markings. One of the ways they identify the style is the accelerator pump shaft sticking out. Some are round, some are flat.

Rochester B is incredibly easy to rebuild. My first rebuild ever. You've assembled an engine. You can rebuild a B.

A kit is cheap and worth a try. But I'm not completely convinced that's your problem.

Several posts back, someone suggested playing with the timing by loosening the clamp and working back and forth while running. Did you ever try that?

Before you even go there, I would make 100% sure that the rotor is pointing at #1 while being 100% certain that cylinder 1 is TDC of compression stroke. And then double or triple check your firing order around the distributor. (Don't ask me why I feel so strongly about this particular check).

I've looked the carb over pretty well, and other than a casting saying Rochester GM on the side by the arms there is no number I can find. It doesn't have a little tag, I bought it from Jim Carter (REME378). It certainly should be clean, but I was a bit upset to find the float so far out of specs. I guess I'll take some pics and see if anyone can figure out what kit iI need.

Right now I would even be willing to buy another carb that is a known good runner, just to get this settled!

I've checked the timing several times, certain that is right, or close enough. If I could get it to run long enough I would try fiddling with the timing, but that's not happening.

Tim

you may not be interesting in sending it off.
I used these guys yrs ago for my 235... and have it rebuilt ( they can also sell you one)
the price back then was ok and I got it back in good time..
I installed that s ucker, hit the floor starter , it was purring like a kitten
did nothing to it but drive it for many yrs.. just a thought
again this was yrs ago but
here is a link to their place recarbo

Here are some pics of the engine and carb. I think the numbers I need for ID are on the bottom of the carb in one of the pictures. I'll see if I can make them out later on.

The last pic is my temporary instrument panel.

Tim

Bad timing doesn't start right up, run a minute and die. It's got to be the carb or pump. (fuel supply issue of some kind) provided it's not a bad ignition switch. You can put a jumper, with an alligator clip, from battery to coil.

This is the page you can use to determine what kit to buy.

And this info from his site: "The Rochester 1 barrel used a small metal tag attached to one of the float bowl screws for identification. When the tag is missing, check the bottom of the mounting pad. If you find 4 numbers add 700 to the front of the 4 numbers and that will give you the carburetor number.

Carburetor kits contain gaskets, needle & seat, accelerator pump (some are pump cup replacements) and other various parts. The K1144 is for the earlier carburetors that use the flat stem accelerator pump. This is a leather pump cup, which was standard. The other kits are for the later model Rochester B carburetor and they usually contain a replacement rubber cup. These were used on round stemmed accelerator pumps that uses replaceable cups."

I notice the Carter Carb says 54-59? You have a 60. Probably no big deal, just saying. His 60-62 Carb is REME637. But his rebuild kit for Rochester 6 Cyl is for 1950-62.

Email Mike's Carburetors and he will set you straight. Send pics and all available info. Start taking carb apart with pictures and notes and clean it all out while you wait for a kit. J. Carter's vendor builder may have had some bad help that day.

I don't have an answer why you did not fix it though. Check ball left out or stuck in hole is all I can think of that a builder would screw up. Warped housings maybe. You need to take it apart and carefully examine to see all the parts are there, clean passages and maybe discover something. Be careful to observe and keep track of EXACTLY what ball was installed in what location. There are different sizes and different materials. Aluminum and SS. Be sure to document how everything was assembled. You could find a gremlin and be on your way. your carb certainly looks worth "fixing"/recalibrating.

Mike Carburetors has a video on your B model. It shows disassembly and assembly. Everything you want to know is in the video. He mentions that if the float drags in the sides of bowl it will hang up and cause flooding, So center the float within the bowl when dropping in. This is a MUST WATCH video.

Again, be sure your pump is not over pressuring. Assume it's not electric and is a direct replacement mechanical pump for 1960 235. I think I do see it and it is Kosher.

My 2¢ about that website.

If your "carb tag" is missing, you should not be confident that the 4 numbers
on the bottom of the base (throttle body) is your carb number.
By adding 700 to those numbers will only tell you the carb #
that the throttle body was originally married to.
Through the years all parts such as air horns, float bowls, etc. have been mixed & matched.

You can buy the same carb kit for $5 to $10 cheaper if you shop around.
Some offer free shipping.
Also, the kit appears to have the incorrect base gasket. Vacuum hole/slot in the wrong location.
As he notes in his video.

With all due respect, the video is a poor example
on how to disassemble & assemble the Rochester 1 BBL.
I have many concerns, here are a few.

Although I have rebuilt a number of these carbs, I am not a professional or an expert.
But....I would NEVER EVER use a pair of pliers to remove a stuck brass "power piston",
especially trying to remove it dry, without putting any "juice" on it.
The newer pistons are hollow and have a tiny bleed hole in that must be clear.
"air bleed power piston"

No need to mark/score/damage the choke plate.
There should be a "RP" on the plate.
"RP" must face outwards with the choke closed.
In the video, even though he marked the plate, he still was confused on how to assemble it.
Just look for the "RP".

If you remove the plate on the throttle body
make sure you know what you are doing.
There are holes in the throttle body that MUST line up with the holes in the plate.
Advice from General Motors
And NEVER EVER use a metal object or pry the plate into position.
And don't crank down one screw first and hope everything is in position.

I turned the video off after he again became confused
when he didn't know why the throttle base gasket hole/slot didn't line up.
He said he would have to do some further research.

We all do thinks differently,
So again, it's just my 2¢.....

Tom,
I tend to trust a person who has done 1000's of carbs. Not a few. Keep in mind he is doing a video and, by his own admission, he is not concentrating like he would if building a carb in normal working conditions. He is thinking of what to say and explain. He does an excellent job WITHOUT a script. Try that sometime.

Let me dispel some of your criticisms.
1. If there is no tag, he is giving us an idea how we may ID the carb. We know it's a B. As you say, parts are mixed and matched. Which proves that the differences are subtle. As you must know, the kit contains unused extra parts. Gaskets, balls, clips.... These parts and the instructions in a kit cover the differences. They cover the mismatched parts that may have been used. If there is no tag and parts are mismatched, his video helps explain what kit parts to use. None of us could identify a mix matched carb. . He tells you which needs 3 balls and which needs 2 balls. He tells you there is a model with a flat pump stem and a round pump stem. Flange hole dimension, the stamped number if available, a picture, the stem and the number of holes in the bottom of the well will tell a person or Mike's Carburetors what kit to get. The tag itself may be mismatched, but we have to start with what info is available. You can buy a kit anywhere you want. Looks like he has 5 kits for B. Delineated by year, make, model. He tells us B is manual choke and BC is automatic choke for further ID. (BV is automatic choke, vacuum operate) The kits come with several base gaskets to cover the variants. He simply had the wrong one laying at his reach.

2. When he removed the power piston he grabbed it at the top. This area has no function and is sometimes smaller. The "sealing" area for vacuum is way down at the bottom. The piston OD is segmented and has a recess in the middle of it's length. If this upper area is scratched/burred it would be "buffed", as he said, and not cause any effect to operation. you would not want to grab it if you didn't have to. If you have to, then you do. The piston does not need a spacecraft seal. If it leaks slightly, it will still pull down. He cautions to be careful not to damage the stem. Don't think there was a bleed hole. Your link seems to cover cars. He would know not to pull on, or damage, stem. I believe he started the video with an unknown condition carb and when he got into it, he kept going. In real life he may have soaked the piston. I think we all would. He did show how to get it out. How to fix a loose throttle shaft link, how to remove stuck plate screws, ran into a stuck ball, broken spring, temporary memory loss, momentary out of sequence assembly...all real life, honest, live rebuild on camera.

3. Just remembering that a marking of RP goes up or down would not orient the plate/disc. The disc can be rotated and installed 180 deg and still see the RP. If you have the RP and take a picture of where it is rotationally, that would work. Or scratch mark it. I have a hunch, after building 1000's, he does this automatically as a fool proof method. All pros develop their fool proof methods and stick to them.

4. He did not use any tools to pry plates into position. He did use a centering tip to find the holes and thus center the choke plate. Choke plates are not critical. When he did the throttle plate he used the same method PLUS he installed the screws LOOSE until he articulated the plate a few time to center it futher, "seated it", held it down and finished the torqueing.

5. I think we can all appreciate someone who sells rebuilt carburetors, for a living, giving us a FREE lesson.

6. This is false and unfair: "With all due respect, the video is a poor example
on how to disassemble & assemble the Rochester 1 BBL." Where is the respect part?

Does the engine start once it stalls, even briefly, when a splash of gas is put into the carburetor throat? If not (or if you haven't tried that) all this conversation about carb rebuilding is premature and a big waste of effort. I'm going to make one more suggestion and then let my frustration take over and stop reading this thread.

Your symptoms are very much suggestive of hydraulic lifters that are pumping up and holding the valves open. The best, brand new, original equipment carburetor that rolled off the assembly line when the engine was new can't provide fuel to an engine without manifold vacuum and/or compression. Even slightly open valves will kill both.

Goodbye and good luck!
Jerry

Jerry has left the building. He will be appearing in other posts. Drive carefully on your way home.

As mentioned somewhere in this thread, I went out the other day and backed the valves off until I could just barely feel a click when I pushed down on the rocker over the valve, then locked it down at that point. I'm pretty sure the valves are loose enough now. I then started it up and it did the same thing it has been doing all along, run well briefly then shut down.
I have decided that before I tear into the carb I am going to temporarily try an electric fuel pump, by passing the mechanical pump on the engine, to see if perhaps the pump is what is giving me grief. It may be a day or two before I can get one and hook it up. We'll see what happens then.

Looking at the list of carbs and kits on the website it looks like one kit (1144?) covers a wide range of carbs. I am going to have to take a close look at mine to see if it has a flat or a round accelerator pump. Then I'll order the appropriate kit. Even if I get this figured out and don't need it right away, it's always good to have something like that on hand.

Tim

bye-bye

My post was a friendly, hopefully funny, Jerry reference. A good guy. Not a bye-bye.

Tim, I did know you already did the valve thing but could not say. Wanted to stay in good with Jerry. He is having a bad hair day.

Jerry, and now I, want to know the answer to his question. When it runs a minute and dies, does it start up again with no squirt? Does it start up again with a little squirt?
This is a "start up again" question NOT a keep it running question.

I fear an electric pump. They put out too much pressure. You have done what Jerry suggested I.E. loosened valves. Can you see a way to do my suggestion and take carb apart? Check it all? learn about it? Play with it? see all the parts are there per the video? Report any findings? Don't need a kit for that if careful with gaskets. Just leave them attached to whatever piece they stick to. You took the top off several times, you were already almost there. Nice clean bench, nice clean cookie sheet or cardboard box lid, good lighting, camera........ easy as pie. piece of cake. If it was me I could not wait to inspect it and find the fault. Where is your science discovery spirit? This little, simple, carb is an interesting little gadget. I get the feeling the carb was sitting in your garage a long time. In Missouri. It could have "corroded". Condensed inside, formed scale/zincosis and blocked passages. Mildew. Mud Dobbers, Etc. Rubber on the needle "took a set".

Actually, I had bought the carb from Jim Carter about a month or so ago, getting parts to stick on the engine when it was finally put together. Left it in its box sealed up the whole time.

The pump I bought has a maximum pressure of 4 PSI ( think), which shouldn't be too strong I hope. Mostly I want to compare the output of the mechanical pump and the electric pump that I know is good.

Unless the pump change makes a big difference in running, I will probably take the carb apart to check it out. I have a Rochester rebuild manual for the B, so I should be able to figure out if something is wrong. I was thinking of doing the work on the kitchen table, but my wife has serious objections, so I'll probably work in my office. At least I probably won't be using serious solvents.

I have this bad feeling that this is going to turn out to be some really simple, stupid mistake, that I will find totally by accident. I will feel really dumb, but happy to have it running.

I will go out tomorrow and try the engine, and see if squirting gas in the carb after it dies lets it restart. I know it doesn't restart without a squirt.

Tim

Your plan is a good one. You are on track for success at 1900 hrs, 23Sept17. A very difficult little thing to find. Everything is new. I do think it is important to determine, if you can, if it seems flooded or starving for gas. Don't pump the throttle during tests too much. Keep choke open. If no start, close the choke and leave it closed until it starts or floods. I use my hand to feather it instead of using the choke. But try hard with no choke first. Be aware of any changes of any kind to anything. Sound, smell, tries to fire up, pop...

State that the gas can hose is fuel hose.
I see why you are reluctant to tear into a new packaged part from a good seller. (J. Carter)

You never said carb is leaking gas so I assume it is not (a true sign of flooding).

If you do feel like it's flooding please watch this entire video from Mike's Carburetors. Some points may apply.

The "coupe de grease" is when you make a mistake while troubleshooting that could have caught it days ago. That hurts the most, but as you say, finding it makes all the pain go away.

You are over the deadline.

The weather was so good today that I ended up doing a lot of chores around the house, like mowing, weed eating, working in the garden. I have a friend coming to visit from Alaska, so I probably won't get anything done tomorrow, either.
Of course, the truck isn't going anywhere.
Besides, if I work on it Monday at least parts stores will be open.

Tim

Fair weather Mechanic.

Well, actually it would be fair weather non-mechanic. I can work on my truck when it's raining, but I can't work on the yard when it's raining. And, as my wife pointed out, I've spent so much time over the last few months on the truck that I am behind on many household chores. And now I feel winter heading this way, so I need to get busy with the fire wood and road work. There just isn't enough time.

Tim

Understood. I have had the same conversation here.

A Big Southwestern rancher's work is never done...

Still trying to whittle down my wife's Do-Do list.... right after branding, and drinking and roping and bustin broncs....and my quilting class.

SUCCESS!!!

I went out this afternoon determined to get this thing working right. I had two concerns other than possible carb malfunction.

I tested the ignition and wasn't happy with the spark, so I replaced the condenser.

I also worried that somehow the alternator wiring, which is connected to the + terminal on the coil, might be messing things up once the alternator go tgoing, so I disconnected all the wires to and from the alternator. I did call the manufacturer of the alternator to make sure it was OK to run it with no hook ups, and they said "no problem".

So I checked all the fluids, filled my gas can with gas (I didn't want to run out halfway through the break in) and cranked it over.

Started right up, kept running, and I ran it for 20 minutes at 2000 RPM (or so, no tach). Oil everywhere, leaking from the valves and running all over. And the radiator was dribbling out hot water most of the time. But it ran.

I am guessing that of the two things I did the one that made a difference was the condenser. After things cool down and I recheck fluids I will try hooking up the alternator again and see if it still runs, just to (hopefully) rule that out.

But I can't express what a relief it was to get it going! I am now having a celebratory beer (or two).

Thanks to all who gave advice and encouragement!

Tim

Happy about that.

Thanks for the update report. We really need that more often. Great effort and good thinking. Don't think alternator wiring can kill a motor. You don't need an Alt to run a motor, just to charge battery. Hope is runs again and again.

I am so glad I was right about that ..........glad you got it going

Yeah, now that I got it running what do I do?

My thoughts are to check oil, water, clean up around it, then run it again for awhile to set idle, valves, etc.

Then change oil, oil filter, drain the radiator and fill with antifreeze solution, run it agin to make sure it's operating well. The articles I'v read all say "thake it out on the road and run for 50 miles, varying load and speed". No way I can do any of that, but I guess if I run it at varying RPM that'll have to do.

I was a bit worried when I saw oil dripping out of the bottom of the engine, but finally realized that it was oil leaking from the valves, running down the side of the engine, and dripping to the ground near the bell housing. Thought I had a rear main seal leak at first! And all that oil running off the valves made the exhaust manifold smoke pretty good.

If anyone has hints or suggestions about how to make sure the engine is broken in properly let me know.

Now I just have to install the transmission and drive shafts, get the brakes all working (including the parking brake). get the exhaust system hooked up, start doing the body work.....

Tim

what ever you do, dont over think it.........advice from 52carl..

Joker, You mean 52Carl? Good guy from the Virginia backwoods. Never overthinks.

For the life of me, I don't remember ever saying, "Don't over think it."
I don't remember lots of things, however.
If I did ever say that, I should be imprisoned for serial hypocrisy.
Nice gesture from my favorite imaginary internet friend none the less.

We have all said it once or twice. It's seems like good advice. We use it when someone is making a project out of changing oil...like.