The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area Engine Shop initial valve adjustment troubles

I'm in the process of assembling my 1960 235, and just got the hydraulic lifters, push rods, and rocker arms installed. Turned the motor by hand until I had #1 cylinder in position to adjust. Got those two valves set, turned the engine clockwise to set #5. Went into the hose to get away from the sun/heat. When I came back later I looked more closely and was uncertain if I had things lined up correctly, so I turned the crank slightly to watch the push rods move to confirm which cylinder was firing. I didn't see any movement in the push rods, but I discovered that one of the rods on #1 cylinder was bent (I think the intake, one back from the front of the engine). I can pull that rod, and probably straighten it out, but now I'm worried about causing more damage. So my questions are:

1. How much movement should I expect to see in the push rods when I turn the crank?
2. Should I pull the side cover and check that the lifters are really down in the block all the way?
3. How do I tell when #1 is in firing position?

I marked the flywheel per Deve's instructions, but the marks are awfully hard to see. I'm thinking of putting file marks on the harmonic balancer 120 degrees apart once I get things lined up so I can at least know how much I'm turning the crank.

Any advice welcome.

Tim

How far are you turning the adjuster once you take the slack out of the pushrod to preload the lifter plunger? I'm not impressed with the factory method of determining which valves to adjust- - - -it leaves too much room for guesswork. I prefer using the "companion cylinder" method of establishing top dead center, which involves observing the movement of the pushrods and rocker arms of the cylinder that's halfway around the firing order from the cylinder that's being adjusted. If you want to install a temporary pointer at the front of the engine and mark the crankshaft pulley, it's simpler and easier than messing with marking the flywheel. Watching the rocker arms is just as effective, and a lot less work.

Companion cylinders are: 1&6, 2&5, and 3&4. These pistons reach top dead center at the same time, one on the compression stroke with both valves closed (ready to adjust) and the companion cylinder is at the top of the exhaust stroke with the exhaust valve closing and the intake just beginning to open. This condition. with the valves moving in opposite directions, is called "rocking".

Let's get ready to adjust the valves on the #1 cylinder- - - - -Turn the crankshaft clockwise from the front, and watch the rocker arms and valve springs (not the pushrods) on the #6 cylinder. The last rocker back by the firewall (#6 exhaust) will begin to compress the valve spring, causing the valve to open. Keep turning. The exhaust valve will open fully and begin to close- - -the spring will relax. Keep turning. Just as the exhaust valve reaches the closed position, the second rocker from the rear (#6 intake) will begin to move. Stop turning. Go to the #1 cylinder and adjust both valves. They will both be fully closed, with the piston at top dead center.

Continue turning the crankshaft and watch the valves on #2 cylinder as they assume the "rocking" position. This will happen 1/3 of a turn of the crankshaft after #6. Adjust cylinder 5. Turn again until #4 rocks- - - -adjust #3. Rock #1- - - -adjust #6. Rock #5- - - -adjust #2. Rock ##3- - - -adjust #4.

On a hydraulic lifter engine wait 15 minutes before starting to allow all the lifters to bleed down to their normal running position. A mechanical lifter engine can be adjusted the same way with no time delay before starting.

In my opinion, this is the simplest, most accurate method of adjusting valves, and it only takes two turns of the crankshaft to do it.
Jerry

Just added that gem to my Desktop!
Well written there Dr. Lincoln!
Even stupid people with only 2 brain cells to rub together can follow those directions.
Well, I'll let you know about that later...

The problem is that since none of the valves are anywhere near correct adjustment, most with the adjuster screws as backed off as they can be without falling out, and no idea what cylinder is firing, I'm sort of starting with no starting point. I'm afraid if I tighten down the adjusters a bit, so that the valves will actually move, or the rockers rock, that I'll end up bending another rod. I think I'm going to have to pull the side cover just to watch the actual lifters move in order to figure out where I am. I'm sure once I get the beginning point figured out I can adjust the valves.
Tim

Is this a new installation with zero running time? There are about 3 different lengths of pushrods for stovebolt engines, and I believe the hydraulic lifter engines have a different length pushrod than the ones for mechanical lifters. It might be a very good idea to pull that side cover so the whole valve train is exposed. Did you pre-fill the lifters or are you trying to make the adjustments without oil in the lifter barrels? The oil makes a big difference in the "feel" the pushrod has during an adjustment sequence.
Jerry

This is a new installation with zero running time. I am using the push rods that came with the engine, which had hydraulic lifters. This is a 59 or 60 engine (the block number says Feb 5, 1959 F0205JC 3769716 B59 848 850) I haven't put oil in the lifters, following Deve's instructions in his Project 1959 235 article. My thought right now is to adjust the rockers until the push rods just sit inside the cup, then slowly turn the crank and watch for any that get loose. I will be pulling the side cover later today and will report what I see. I'm hoping that I can straighten out the bent rod enough to use, but we'll see.

Tim.

I'm not an engine expert by any means but my practice has always been to submerge the lifters in oil for a few hours prior to installing them. Follow Jerry's procedures and all will be good.🛠

If you had hydraulic lifters and you are now using mechanical lifters with the original pushrods, isn't there the possibility that you are using pushrods that are too long? Maybe that's why you have a bent pushrod? Hmmm...

Your engine serial # "JC" indicates a truck engine
which originally had mechanical lifters.

Before you cause any further damage
make sure you have the correct parts.
As others have said, push rods come in different lengths.

Also is the camshaft hydraulic or mechanical.
A 1959 truck engine had a mechanical camshaft.

Hydraulic lifters always get pre-filled.
Deve's 1959 instructions, "The Hydraulic Lifters",also pre-fill the lifters.

I don't know what this engine came with originally, but when I got it it had hydraulic lifters installed. When the machine shop did all the work they gave me a set of hydraulic lifters and a hydraulic cam.

As far as pre-filling the hydraulic lifters, from Deve's "Project 1959 235" under initial valve adjustment...
"There is no need to take them apart and put oil in them. They will pump up almost right away during operation, and it is not needed for a proper initial adjustment anyway. In fact, we haven't even put oil in this engine yet! "

The push rods were the ones that were in the engine when I got it, so my assumption is that they should work.

I went out this evening and pulled the side cover, slipped out the bent push rod and straightened it out (it was just barely bent),
and loosened all of the rocker arm adjustments as far as I could. Then I slowly turned the crank shaft, watching the lifters themselves. And shining a very bright light on the flywheel so I could see the marks I had put on. When I got one of the marks lined up with the pointer I filed a small notch on the edge of the harmonic balancer in line with a mark on the timing chain cover, until I had three marks 120 degrees apart. I finally figured out which point #1 was in firing position, and adjusted those two valves. I left them a little bit loose, just in case. I went through the whole procedure, then checked it again by rotating the crank through two more full revolutions, and everything looked good.

I think part of what was confusing me was how little movement there is in the valve train. When I watched the lifters come up out of the hole in the block they only raised about 1/2". I guess I was expecting something more dramatic. But it all looks good now, and I will probably run through the procedure one more time before I get to actually trying to run the engine, and tighten them up a bit more.

Thanks to all who helped me with this.

Until the next problem...

Tim

Be careful whose advice you take- - - - - -some of them talk a good game, but they have no real experience other than searching websites and parroting whatever information they find.
Jerry

Hand crank it and verify the valve springs are not stacking. Not sure how much spacing between the coils is normal, but you need some to keep from bending those pushrods.

Dennis

You may be lucky without prefilling your lifters, but if you get lifter noise at higher RPM's you may want to read my blog post on this subject.
Link to blog.

Yes, I have read that blog, and I have considered putting in the groove on the push rod. I'll admit I am a bit confused, because in the "Project 1959 235", near the beginning is a section on cleaning old lifters and filling them with oil, then later in the assembly process it says don't bother to pre-fill them. Maybe I'll take them all out and fill them with oil just to be safe.

One other question, in the blog post on lifters it says "If there is air trapped in the reservoir it will move to the bottom of the reservoir as it is lighter than oil." Why would this make it go to the bottom rather than the top? Or am I misunderstanding something?

As far as whose advice I take, I try to be somewhat selective, but since I don't know much about rebuilding engines I tend to go with what seems most authoritative, such as shop manuals, and folks who sound like they have experience. doesn't always work, but for the most part I figure it's safest.

Tim

As Dave has mentioned, the early stovebolt hydraulic lifters had some design flaws that were corrected by aftermarket manufacturers later, including putting the bleed hole in the pushrod seat. The vent groove in the ball end of the pushrod also helps the lifters purge any trapped air. About the only worse designed hydraulic lifters I've encountered were in the Lincoln Zephyr V-12 engines from the early 1940's! Early Oldsmobile and Cadillac hydraulics in the 1950's had problems with lifters getting noisy, but it was finally traced back to a particular brand of oil foaming and causing the lifters to get spongy after a few miles at highway speed.
Jerry

With all the engine turning, why not fill the crankcase with oil so you get lubrication to the bearings? Also, how did you prelude the camshaft? Before starting again, pull each lifter and add some more camshaft break-in grease to the bottom of each lifter and then limit the amount of crank rotation to only what is needed to adjust the lifters. If there is a question of correct parts being used, pull all lifters except the ones used for set-up. This will keep the camshaft break-in grease on the other lobes while you fiddle with the set-up and test lifter / push rods.

And fill the lifters, it will make your job much easier.

From my blog.
"The problem comes in when all the air is not removed on assembly.
What appears to happen at higher RPMs is that as the lifter reaches the maximum height of the cam lobe and starts back down inertia keeps the oil moving towards the top of the reservoir. If there is air trapped in the reservoir it will move to the bottom of the reservoir as it is lighter than oil. From there it will enter through the check valve into the lower working area as the lower working area of the lifter recharges on the downward travel. This gets the lifter ready for the next valve opening. This air that has now entered the lower working area of the lifter makes the lifter spongy and creates lifter clack.
Once the RPM's are reduced and the oil again stays in the bottom of the reservoir, the air bleeds back up from the lower working area between the plunger and body, back into the reservoir, and the lifter will quiet back down."

When I assembled the engine I slathered white assembly lube all over the crank bearing surfaces, and the rod bearing surfaces. I think I used nearly a full tube of the stuff. The cam was covered in assembly grease that I got from the machine shop, all the bearing surfaces and the lobes. When I installed the lifters I smeared the grease on the bottom of each lifter, and an extra dab on the lobe. When I pulled one of the lifters to check it out the grease was still there, just smeared around a bit. I would like to wait on putting oil in until I have filled the block with water, just to check for leaks. Then I plan on putting in oil and running the oil pump until I see oil in the rockers. Hopefully, now that I have the valves roughly adjusted, I won't be turning the crank any more.

Tim

Sounds like a good plan, just wanted you to beware of the cam grease. I know these engines are not full on race motors with high lift cams, but the break-in is still important and good lubrication is a must.

Joe

Just out of curiosity, how much do the lifters move? I mean, what is the difference between the low and high points of lifter travel?

Tim

The cam we're about to install in John's 261 has an intake lobe lift of .278" and an exhaust lobe lift of .272". (The lifters rise slightly over 1/4") That's a little higher lift than a 235 cam has. With an almost 1.5:1 rocker arm ratio, the valves move .417" and .408". This cam is a clone of the one that was used in the 53-54 6 cylinder Corvettes.
Jerry

Thanks for the quick reply. That explains why I was having so much trouble seeing the movement. For some reason (read "ignorance") I was expecting something much more dramatic.

Tim

For "dramatic" you need a roller cam and a race car.. Even then, it's more about how long the valve stays open, and how fast it lifts, not so much how high. A roller lifter with the proper grind cam practically slaps the valve wide open, holds it there for a while, and drops it rapidly to very near the seat before it slows down to keep the valve and the seat from getting battered. I used to spend over an hour's lecture time in class, just covering the basics of camshaft and lifter design and function- - - -it's a pretty entertaining subject.
Jerry

Yeah, I don't know much about the nuts and bolts of cams, just that it's a very intricate subject. Lucky for me (and most of us I suppose) that all of that is built into the engine. Sort of like my body. If someone told me "OK, you now control your liver" I would die pretty shortly!

Tim