The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area The HiPo Shop Tiny small block V8

The bits and pieces are coming together for what's going to be sort of a destroked 265 engine, one down near 250 cubic inches. I'm starting out with a 305 block, and fitting a forged 283 crankshaft to it with a set of special thick wall main bearings. The crank will be destroked to 2 7/8 inches, same as a Ford 289, and fitted with a set of NASCAR-specification Carrillo H-beam connecting rods that use Honda rod bearings about 1 7/8" in diameter. Add a set of pocket ported 58CC 305 cylinder heads with oversized exhaust valves, angle-milled to about 45CC's for a 10:1 compression ratio, and a roller cam and a rev kit, topped off with a 390 CFM Carter 4-barrel, and this thing should be able to live happily at around 8K RPM when necessary. I'm thinking about making it one of the engine options in the Excalibur roadster I was given several years ago. I'll also be able to run a Mercruiser 4 cylinder, a 230 inline six, or a 4.3 Liter S-10 V6, all with the same 700R4 transmission and virtually the same motor mounts!
Jerry

Sounds like an interesting build. Keep posting.

Jerry, sounds like it should be a Great sounding engine with that short stroke, especially if it likes 8k. One of my toys, a v8 Miata (currently with engine out chasing a mystery noise) has a HO 5.0 or 302 Ford that's bored 60 making a 310. Sonic checking said it'd be safe with the overbore. Point being the little Fords, 289's and 302's I think are some of the best sounding V8 engines on the road. And I'm not a Ford guy, I seem to have lost some of my early life prejudices.

Looking forward to updates and dyno results.

One of the legends of southern round track racing, Red Farmer, ran nothing but Ford 289's, and showed his heels to a lot of guys with much bigger engines. The last time I saw Red run was in the early 1990's IIRC, when he was in his late 80's. He was running on the dirt track a couple of miles down the road from Talladega, and was not just motoring around- - - -he had the pedal to the metal! That little short stroke 289 could haul butt! I built a 289 for a Sunbeam Tiger while I was on Okinawa, and it raced in the Macau Grand Prix after I came back to the states. That was in 1972.
Jerry

Good Story about Red Farmer. And a Tiger, one of the cars I lusted after back in the 70's. Hense the current V8 Miata, I'll never be able to afford a real Cobra or Tiger so it's my best effort to have a Tiger/Cobra'ish modern equivalent. Now just have to get busy and put it back together before the fall driving season turns into winter.

Jerry, you must post a video of that motor running after you finish... sort of a DZ 265? I always wanted to build a DZ 302, but never had anything that I thought was light enough to put it in.

As far as the Ford 289 goes. A long time ago, I once had the chance to drive two different AC Cobras (real ones) side by side- a 427 and a 289. The 289 had a lot of internal work done to it, but it was bone stock appearing on the outside- it was a far better engine than the 427, I thought (and a lot more fun to drive), hands down. That 289 was ridiculously fast.

Since I'm sort of partial to keeping my pocket change in my own pocket, I like to recycle other people's junk. I just bought a small block Chevy rev kit, about 40 roller lifters, and a stud girdle, all for a C-note on an ebay auction. The Carrillo rods have one NASCAR race on them- - - -they cost me another Franklin! Other than crankshaft grinding and getting the heads angle-milled, I'll be doing virtually all of the other machine work in my little shade tree machine shop out the back door. Keeps me out of the beer joints, anyhow!
Jerry

My favorite tiny V8 was the aluminum 215 CID my friends and I got from an F85 and put it into a 68 Ford Cortina. it was a wacky swap we did back in the 80's and made that car move out. I don't think it would work too well in a truck since it wasn't particularly torquey.

Didn't some version of the 215 end up in the Morgan +8? I helped a USAF friend campaign a 1968 Morgan +4 in central California autocross racing when we were both stationed at Castle AFB. The +4 ran a somewhat beaned-up Triumph 4 cylinder engine.

OOPS! Wrong car line- - - - -the Rover aluminum V8 was developed from the GM 215. The Morgan uses a BMW V8!
Jerry

there was a turbo version of that engine that was one of the early engines that put out 1 hp/cube. A 215 CID/215 hp. it had the BOP bell housing configuration and yes the Rover/British Leyland company used a derivative of that engine for decades in front of a TH400 trans (maybe a TH350 - not sure). A bare 215 block could easily be picked up with one hand.

Of course, small V8's are nothing new- - - - -How about a 136 cubic inch engine that produced a massive 60 brake HP? Ford produced it from 1937 to 1940.

http://www.vanpeltsales.com/FH_web/flathead_specs-V8-60hp.htm

LOL!
Jerry

The earlier Morgan +8 used the Rover (215 derivative). This was from 1968-2004. The BMW came with the re-introduction of the +8 in 2012. Not much difference in the early +8 and +4 you were working with other than the motor. They got a few inches bigger in successive years but still pretty darn light for the power.

Dennis

The guys in the Corvette club hated us- - - -we were turning autocross times as fast, or sometimes faster that they could manage! Doing it with a 4 cylinder just rubbed a little salt in the wounds!
Jerry

Back in the day I made a killer Corvair using the Crown engineering V8 kit and building a 327 to the 350hp specs. The only brake update availabe then was Airheart and the only radials were Michelon or Pirelli. With Pirelli's, ground affects, Bilsteins, Airheart, and the mid engine configuration my two thousand dollar (in 1960's dollars) Corvair embarrassed a number of forty thousand dollar Porches. We ran a sbc powered super modified/sprint (depending on a head rest tail or square tail) and on several of the long high purse races we had to look at the tail of the 289 powered car belonging to the Baxter brothers out of Melissa, Texas with their short stroke screamer.

Dad used to have a saying about the dirt track flathead Ford V8's he built- - - - -"Build 'em little, wind 'em tight, and get the chemistry just right!" He ran an alcohol/peroxide fuel mix that would eat the bottom out of a carburetor float bowl unless the carb was run dry between races!

I had a friend in California who used the mid-engine Crown style engine setup in a 65 Corvair, but he chose to install a 392 Chrysler hemi. That thing was an absolute beast, but it had an almost perfect 50/50 weight distribution and it cornered like it was on rails.
Jerry

Those Triumph (Ferguson Tractor) engines have plenty of potential- I had a warmed-over TR-3A as a kid, and I loved that car.

Wikipedia:

" . . .
The prototype Plus 8 (identifiable by two small bonnet bulges near the centre bonnet hinge) used a Rover V8 engine and the Plus 8 was launched in 1968 using Rover's production engine, itself a re-engineered version of the Buick/Oldsmobile 215 motor (renamed the 3.5 L by Rover) with a compression of 10.5:1 fueled by two SU HS6 carburettors. The high 10.5:1 CR was only usable because 5* (101 octane) petrol was then still available.
. . . "

Jerry,
Did you ever use hydrazine in any of your engines? Huge power enhancer but very wicked stuff. Those that try some exotics without consulting a fuel chemist can sure make big pieces into little pieces or blobs where there used to be shapes while they trial and error their way to the right combination. I guess we looked at every oxygen rich molecule during the years and some actually worked but the price was high at times. Whenever your at a track at night, especially one near water, and there are no mosquitoes then there is fuel being used.

To the best of my memory as a young boy at the time those engines were running, and from 50-something years of hearing stories about them, all that Dad used was Methanol, very high concentration Hydrogen Peroxide (30%), and a little Amyl Acetate (known as "banana oil") as a mixing agent. The exhaust fumes would clear sinuses half a block away!
Jerry

Jerry, is the 265 that you're building a '55-56 vintage engine? Just curious as I know that there was a 262 V8 that was available for the Monza 2+2 which I believe was back in the '80's. Thought that maybe you were starting with a 262 that was bored .030 over.

John

After re-reading your original post, I concluded that to use a 283 crank, it must be the older (55-56) version.

John

There is no such thing as a 55-56 283. The first 283's were produced in 57. However, both the 265 and the 283 used identical crankshafts, forged cranks with a 3" stroke. Some of the very late production (early 1960's) 283 engines used a cast crank, but since I'm planning on building a high revving engine, I'll probably use the forged item. I'll be using a 305 block with a set of thick-wall main bearings to adapt the small-diameter main journals of the 283 crank to the later block. I also plan on installing aftermarket 4-bolt main bearing caps in the 2,3,and 4 positions. Every performance engine I build starts out with a line bore, so adding the 4 bolt caps doesn't add much to the initial cost.
Jerry

I have a couple of 302 DZ cranks with the 3" stroke and big mains but both need attention. The best one has a deep gouge where a rod bolt stabbed the journal but being forged maybe could be welded and ground. They were nitrided from the factory to a depth of no more than 0.006 and we found that even ground 0.010 they weren't near as durable. Will dig through my junk and see if they are still around and if so they will have a price that sounds like a baby chick---cheep, cheep; like you pay the shipping. A strike against the 302 is it's quite a bit heavier than the 265/283 which for a quick winding engine might not be desirable.

Thanks, Evan- - - -The average big journal crank weighs in at around 50 pounds, give or take a little. A slightly gouged rod journal, reground to the 1.85" Honda rod bearing diameter and offset 1/16" to reduce the stroke would definitely be an option, no welding required. Since I don't plan to do any serious racing with this engine, getting the nitriding redone might not be necessary. Back when I was building engines for the "win at any cost" guys, King's Crankshaft was my go to source for 38 Lb. billet cranks. At $5500.00 a pop, I was glad I was spending somebody else's money!
Jerry

Jerry, no offense taken or implied, but I believe you misunderstood me. I am fully aware that the 283 wasn't available until '57. I was only asking if you were using an original '55-56 265 ci block.

The "Tiny small block V8" title just caught my attention and was I intrigued as I hadn't heard of anyone but die hard restorers messing with the 265's anymore.

John

The 305 actually has a slightly smaller bore than the 265, 3.736" instead of 3.750". 305 pistons have almost the right compression height to be used with a 2 7/8" stroke and a 6" connecting rod. By using the 305 high compression heads with some porting and slightly oversized valves, the majority of the parts will be 40 years newer than 265 stuff, and much more available. The heads also have the bolt holes for modern accessories like alternator mounts, power steering pump, etc. plus a serpentine belt system and water pump from a S-10 V6 will bolt right on. The only tricky part is getting the main bearing bores adapted to the small journal crank, and there's a set of race bearings for that application.
Jerry

To get an idea of the power potential of a high winding engine in the late eighties BMW Formula One engines made 1200hp with a 91 cubic inch engine for qualifying and 900hp for racing. The present engines are limited to 145ci V6 turbo ones that make nearly 900hp at 15,000rpm. The bore is right at 3 7/8" and the stroke is just over ONE AND A HALF inches. The rules state the 15,000 rpm limit but with no (metal) valve springs they can turn 20,000rpm. Lots of power available in a screamer.

Honda made a V8 race engine awhile back that had a displacement less than 2 liters (122 cubic inches). It ran in the "bumblebee on steroids" RPM ranges also. It's a lot of fun to build up fantasy engines with the "Desktop Dyno" program and see just how radical some combinations of bore, stroke, cam, and RPM can get. Electrons are a lot cheaper than cast iron and aluminum, also!
Jerry

I used to have a '78 Fiat with a dual overhead cam 4 banger with a tach which had a 6,000 RPM redline.
I drove it like a girl for the longest time, shifting at around 2,000 RPM. Then I saw the 6,000 RPM redline. So I went for it and revved it up to 5,000 between shifts, and holy crap that little motor made some sweet music.
The only problem was, when I was running on 100 proof ethanol (me, not the engine), at unmentionable high speeds with the top down, the turbulence would push the back of my head off of the head rest.

As you're no doubt aware this engine was a staple for British Leyland in their Rover P5/6 and SD1 cars,Range Rover have used this in several displacements and derivatives for decades too.
As you say they're nice and light in fact they're lighter than F*rds 120c.u. 'Pinto' motor so well suited to many of our smaller European rods.

They've been 'rodder fodder' here too for many years,V8 sound and torque but with slightly better table manners than big inch American V8s,a big consideration here because of the price of gas.

I just received my ebay purchase- - - -bits and pieces of about three sets of small block Chevy roller lifters, one and a half sets of stud girdle bars, but none of the tall valve adjusting nuts, and a large assortment of rev kit bits and pieces. It's probably close to $1K of parts, all for a hundred bucks! Even if I have to cull half of the stuff, I'm still money ahead!
Jerry

Caution pondering thought. Back in the day Jerry could probably score these parts within 100 mile radius of his humble abode. I'd wager there were speed shops, garages and hot rodders dotting his local landscape everywhere. Now jump forward to the present and all those great resources are now relegated to stories we share with fellow wrench turners.
Now when we go on the hunt the excitement is still there, especially when we make a good score, but our hunt is now literally world wide and we're dealing with folks we may never meet and most like won't.
This is a case of the usefulness of the world wide web, an invention by propeller heads so that they could share information with other propeller heads and once the cat got out of the bag even gearheads use it to share information. My how the worm turned LOL.

Carry on Jerry, great read.

What amazes me is those recycled NASCAR parts! Granted, few, if any of them are bolt-in stuff for a street engine, but a set of $2K+ tool steel connecting rods for a hundred bucks leaves a lot of room for custom machine work! The same sites also recycle other low-mileage race engine parts. Billet crankshafts, engine blocks, cylinder heads- - - - -all sorts of lightly-used round track parts that race teams have left over from one or two days of racing on a superspeedway end up on Ebay.

Back when I built circle track engines my competitors learned to be very selective about the "junk" they sold or gave me. Quite often, they ended up following their own castoffs into the turns!
Jerry