The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area The HiPo Shop Most bang for the $... crate engines vs pieced together

Hello all. This is my first post, outside of my welcome center post, since becoming a member. Having said that, if anything I post needs to be relocated, feel free to let me know.

Ok, to the meat and potatoes. I'm currently planning to put a LS3 in my 58. I've seen/ read about several of these builds so fitting doesn't seem to be an issue I'll face. However, I'm at the point of planning this build financially, and I have hit a road block.

My heart was initially set on 500+ HP. So, that was a search criteria. The crate "turn-key" engine that I was able to find was a Thompson Motorsports LS3 w/ 550 HP. They have a hefty price tag of $14k. about $4k above my entire powertrain budget (I came into this blind and assumed $10,000.00 would build it.). So, I looked a bit more and found a from the factory GM LS3 crate engine w/ 430 HP for around $8k. Much more my price range, much less HP than I wanted. My road block came next. How much would it cost me to just buy a block and all the individual parts needed to put together a 500+ HP engine. So, I guess what I'm asking is:

What have you guys done in this situation?

What brands should I be hunting down for individual parts?

Am I an idiot who is asking for too much power in my truck?

Can I honestly self build something with 500+ HP with under $10k?

I also have some transmission questions, but I'll look for a transmission thread to write on. If I can't find one, I'll post here again.

Why an LS3?
Why 500?

You need to present what frame, transmission, rear axle you are going to use before we can determine whether or not you are "an idiot who is asking for too much power in my truck."
Carl

Buy a lower HP engine and lie about it- - - - -like everybody else does! There's no way you're going to get that much power to the ground without a dedicated frame buildup that's going to cost more than the engine does. Then you've got a race rig that's not suitable for the street.
Jerry

You can build a 500hp big block for less than the $8K 430hp crate LS but you will have a ill driving bad idling 8 mpg hog vs a smooth running, idle for an hour with the a/c on 20+ mpg engine with a warranty on it. How much is 70hp worth to you?

I can't offer an opinion on a LS3,but can on Crate vs build. In 2012 my truck badly needed an engine. I decided on a 350 ZZ4. Here in Canada a crate ZZ4 was around $5800.I had the equivalent built for $2200.

With absolutely no offense intended, have you ever drove, even rode in, a 500 horsepower street vehicle?

I have two, with approximately 435~450 horsepower each, and in both, first gear is virtually worthless; AND both have positive traction rear ends.

One was built for advertising purposes (dual quads); the other because when I started the build, I was significantly younger, and a lot more foolish

Unless you plan on putting the truck on a flatbed, and hauling it behind another truck (with maybe only 300 or so horsepower ); give it some hard thought, and try to find a friend that has a 300 or so HP truck of that vintage that will give you a ride.

My nickel (2 cents with inflation!).

Jon.

You don't need 500 horses to make some noise and spin tires on a truck this small and light.

Isn't that why the original Ford Mustang in 1964 had a 55/45% weight distribution with the bias toward the front- - - - -so it was easy to spin the tires?
Jerry

No body needs, or can use that kind of HP without a scratch built chassis and running gear.
But that's not the question is it?
The question is what do you want? Nothing about hot rodding an old pickup has anything to do with being practical or even common sense.
If you have the money, a "connect and cruise" crate from Chevrolet performance fits your need and mechanical ability (no offense intended)
If you don't have the money and want to learn how to build an engine yourself (with some help from a local engine shop) this is your chance.

Can you build a 500hp engine? Sure! Can you manage a 500hp engine on the streets? Maybe with enough $ thrown at the chassis and drivetrain. Would it be a blast to drive? You bet! Would it get you in trouble? Very likely! Would it do ok in parades? Absolutely not! Could you take it cross the desert during the summer months? No way. Can you pass more than 1 gas station at a time? Maybe!
Tell us your vision for this build. Show truck? Daily driver? Cruise-ins? Power Tour? With a clear understanding of what you want the final outcome to be we can help you formulate a plan to get there. As it stands now you haven't provided us with enough info to do anything other than tell you "yes you can build 500hp for under $10,000 using power adders" but then what?

The question of building verses buying, I doubt you can build an engine like you want for the price of crate type engine. You will also need to know what parts to buy, and thats a bigger factor then the actual building of it. Most guys can build engines all right, it's choosing the right valve train, induction system, rotating assembly, and drivetrain that gets you in trouble. The transmission and rear axle all have to be apart of the engine selection. Once you nail that down, now you need to stop the truck, cool it, and keep it fueled.

I would really want to study the dyno sheet from the manufacturer before laying down a dime. If the 500 hp is way up in the rpm range and the low rpm is flat, then you would have a very poor running truck till you spun the engine high enough to be in the power band. 97% of all driving is off idle and cruise, the other 3% is burn outs and a few high speed runs.

As a point of reference, my dad's '71 Pontiac wagon is a street driven race car. Its street legal but set up for drag racing. Engine is a 478 ci Pontiac making 555 hp at the flywheel. The wagon has 52% of its weight over the rear tires, thats 2050 lbs. With a decent sized street radial, it will leave black marks through first and in to second gear from a slow roll. With drag radials, the car has run as fast as 11.32 @ 118 mph in the quarter mile. To do that it has a bullet proof T400 transmission, and 12 bolt Chevrolet rear axle with all aftermarket racing internals. It took lots of money to put that 500 + hp to the pavement and a lot of trial and error.

My answer for both questions... I have no idea. To fit in? To have a dream truck?

I was going to answer questions individually, but it appears everyone is pointing at the same few things.

Why an LS3?
Why 500 HP?
-I had a roommate a few years ago with a new era Camaro (pre-ordered when they did the redesign) that was getting 498 HP to the ground. This car was a blast to drive, did well enough on fuel to be a daily driver, and was manageable in the city. Everyone, including me, loved that car. I decided back then that I'd like to have that kind of power in a classic truck. Thus, my journey began.

What is the truck going to be used for?
- It will be my daily driver as well as a driving advertisement for my business. With that being said, I plan to build something nice enough that it'll also play the role of "show truck" more than a few weekends a year, and the wife and I already enjoy going to cruise nights᠁ So I have to incorporate that in the plan as well.

The drive train/frame buildup:
- 4L80E tranny with either the ford 9" rear-end or a late model heavy duty GM pickup rear-end. I’m not yet educated enough to know which will work best/at all.
- The frame is another question that I have yet to answer. Originally I wanted to just update the current frame on the truck. However, with what little research I've done, it appears buying something new is the most likely course of action. That'll be another forum thread altogether I'm sure.
After reading through your comments, it appears I’m probably reaching too far for what I’m wanting to do with this vehicle. What are some alternatives? L92? LQ9? Are those both still too big?

"Speed is expensive- - - -how fast can you afford to go?"

"There's no substitute for cubic dollars!"

It's your football and your football bat- - - - -play the game any way you choose. Most of us who have been playing the hotrod game have learned that high horsepower toys are a big money pit that sort of resembles a toilet bowl with the way they suck up money. Get a nice 25 MPG econobox to drive every day, and save the toy for cruising Main St. on the weekends or park it somewhere close to your business where you can keep a close eye on it. Shiny nice things attract some unwanted attention sometimes.
Jerry

For a low buck compared to a crate motor alternative is get a stock older LQ4 6.0 truck motor , mild cam swap , and Holley , MSD, or Fast self tuning EFI. It will easily put you around 500hp with good drivability and hold together. I don't remember the details off the top of my head. Do a google search there are plenty of articles about it. I plan to put one of these in my dads 55 210 post with a 4L80E.

I agree with everyone else a good suspension for that kind of power is mandatory, but there are several aftermarket options available for your stock frame. For example there is a company that sells a kit to fit older (cheap) corvette front and rear suspension in trucks.

Chambo - I checked your profile, and its states you are military; so, I would like to thank you for your service.

Good luck with your project, and be safe.

Jon.

Chambo, I know a couple of those Broken Arrow Police Officers. Once you get your "Dream Ride" finished be vigilant, they are known to bust Hotrodders chops.

You can always look into in the turbo motors, they make killer power with little effort and still seem to be easy to drive on the street.

My biggest problem with the high horsepower engines on the street is all the other cars around you. Dad's wagon accelerates so fast, it's to risky to even step into it with all the cellphone drivers around. Years ago, traffic wasn't as bad and you get away with a little hot rodding, not now. Just driving carefully in a old car draws attention.

Joe

A bit late, here are my 2cents.
You want power, good for you, go for it, just be gentle with the throttle at first and do not listen to the guys telling 500HP is too much!
First, do a front clip swap, use a mid '70s Camaro or Monte, plenty strong and you get poser steering and brakes, IFS and a sturdy OEM design. You also get V8 engine mounts, which you can use to easily install an LS engine with adapter plates.
Look into junkyard engines, many good deals to be found, with warranty, low miles...
Do not forget the cost of the electronics for your engine, computer reprogramming, harness modification or aftermarket harness...
As much as the LS3 is a good engine, do not get stuck on that particular engine, there is choice!
I like the idea of a low miles used engine, and I see a couple of ways to look at things:
get a truck engine, low miles and put a blower on it, like a Magnacharger kit, quiet, reliable, makes plenty of power...
look into a late model Camaro/Corvette engine, probably more money up front, but several come with a factory blower...
With a used engine, make sure you also get the computer and harness, and you might want to take the trans that came with it too...
Have fun!

One more thing: for LS engine-specific questions, I have always found a lot of information on the LS1Tech forum; they have a section for vehicles that never had an LS from the factory.