The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area Engine Shop Oil Additives

Most of you guys probably already know this but for those who don't:

Newer isn't necessarily better. Modern oils are now formulated with reduced zinc so as to avoid damage to catalytic converters on new cars. The problem is, zinc has unparalleled anti-friction properties and is absolutely required for flat tappet camshafts in older vehicles. Two ways I get zinc into my old truck:

1) Buy Quaker State Defy motor oil. Made for older engines, it is high in zinc. Available at Autozone and Walmart.

2) If I must use modern oil, I add a supplement such as STP Oil Treatment with ZDDP (zinc). Available everywhere.

3) Lots of guys were using Delo diesel oil, but I believe zinc has been reduced in that now too. Please update if you know more.

Phosphorous (ZDDP) has not been "eliminated" in modern oils. <CLICK> It has been reduced but there's an adequate level for older stock engines. Unless you're running a high lift cam and/or strong valve springs you're just fine using modern oil in your older engine.

I work in the wholesale petroleum industry and have researched this issue thoroughly. ZDDP levels in modern oils are at best marginal for flat tappet cams, and completely inadequate for break in. Cam failures are in older cars are at unprecedented levels. Virtually all professional engine builders are aware of this and supplement their oil with zinc additives.

But if $5.00 per oil change is too much for you to pay to protect your multi-thousand dollar investment, that's certainly your prerogative.

.

I purchased a crate motor from Pheonix Engine. Warranty is voided if ZDDP additive is not added to every oil change.

Now you're comparing apples to oranges. Break in does indeed require additional precautions. That wasn't part of your original post. Again our STOCK Chevy & GMC six cylinder engines are just fine with current, quality, oils. Most of our members, myself included, have successfully put many tens of thousands of miles on their vehicles without damage using regular motor oils. That speaks for itself. I said nothing about cost advantages or disadvantages.

tcox,

What kind of crate motor?

Indeed, inquiring minds want to know. Looks like they sell performance engines. Which is not the subject of this debate.

Tempest in a teapot- - - - -Stovebolt valve spring tension and cam lift rates don't qualify for all the angst a high performance double spring setup with 300 pounds of seat pressure that turns 7K RPM does.

I'll be glad to invest in some pine 2X2's and some plywood and sell you a stovebolt engine in a "crate". Maybe I could triple my prices!
Jerry

It's been awhile since the topic of ZDDP being essential to stove bolt six engines (after break-in with high ZDDP). The topic is almost religious (but, not political).

"Crate motor" (in a post above) probably is a reference to a V-8?
If it has a flat tappet cam, maybe ZDDP during normal operation in warranted?

Many members/readers/posters here are probably thinking of stove bolt six engines. Go ahead and use ZDDP oil/additives during normal operation with a stove bolt, but you won't convince most members here (who have put many miles on their engines).

Jay,
so I have seen the Defy brand. Do the zinc levels come close to the old oil?

Rislone 3X Concentrated Engine Oil Supplement is what I was told to use by the machine shop that rebuilt my 216 engine.
Harold

A high ZDDP break-in oil additive might be a prudent choice.
A ZDDP additive after break-in would not hurt but it might be a waste of money (around +$8 per oil change).

I use this oil in my stove bolt engines after break-in ~ $35/gal (it might still have a little ZDDP in it?).

best of both worlds..........brad-penn

Motor Oil, Grade 1, Mineral, Break-in Oil, 30W, ZDDP Enhanced

Excellent for engine break-in after a rebuild. I think the recommendation is to run the rebuilt engine for about an hour and then drain the break-in oil? Refill with "standard" oil.

Gotta love Summit.
"Oil weight 30W"?
"W" does not mean "weight", and there is no 30W.

Yes, the 30 oil is rated 30W

http://www.upmpg.com/tech_articles/motoroil_viscosity/

Brad Penn Oil 009-7120S SAE 30W Engine Break-In Oil

The W stands for winter. And yes there is 30W oil.

Well, of course there is/are.

This was a good discussion and I learned something new. Thanks 'Bolters!

I was going to run the Valvoline VR1 oil in my rebuilt 261. I have no idea what quantity of zddp is required in these engines- would the quantity of zddp in VR1 be sufficient?

I generally steer away from oil threads, but here I am... what about this article? Seems like there might be a limit to how much zinc you should add...

Too much zdp causes camshaft damage...

I wrote to Vavoline about ZDDP content in their "off road" racing oil. Now on their oil cans it reads with ZDDP on a bright label on the VR-1 racing oil cans. Also about the additives to oil... Vavoline racing oils far exceedes any oil requirements and those reported "super Nano lubricantes" just burn off within 100 miles. The Vavoline oil is blended not to break down in extreme heat or cold. For our 235 they recommended 10-30 wt....if you have questions Vavoline will give you an answer via email....just go to their website.

The way I understand it the high ZDDP is a requirement for the break in cycle of a new cam and new flat tappet lifters. After break in it is not so important. If you used a new or reground cam and new or resurfaced lifters in your rebuild you should definitely use a high ZDDP break in oil.

I still use a supplement with every change on my classics with flat tappet cams just in case.

VR1 is good for any type of cam, including racing engines, so your 261 will be cover with no problems.

Another 'you need zinc' thread? Oh yeah!!!

First, the oil of today has THE SAME AMOUNT OF ZINC FROM THE 50s!!!!!!!!! THE SAME AMOUNT.

The reason zinc was excessively added to oil in the 70's was because its a cheap anti-oxidizing agent. It was never added to street cars for protection of flat tappet cams.

Flat tappet motors are still being made today (they call them inverted bucket) and are usually in lower performance engines because of cost and modern oil still provide sufficient protection with the current API standard.

The ONLY VALID reason for adding zinc is because of a high performance cam with double valve springs and the like. Even that is questionable because if you have such a high performance cam you're gonna be using roller lifters, not flat tappets. So if you want a whumpa whumpa engine and still run flat tappets, they yeah, you're gonna need something like ZDDP to make it last... but zinc over 1200ppm is a waste and WILL start to etch the metal making more friction etc.

So unless you know you have a high lift cam and very stiff (outside factory spec) valve springs adding ZDDP, using synthetic oil or pouring unicorn tears into the oil is not going to do anything but waste money.

And no, you don't need ZDDP at break in. Assembly lube is all you need.

Que all the race car experts that say otherwise (just remember, I never said anything about race cars... I EXPLIXITLY stated that high lift cams/high tension valve springs *might* need additives... but really if you're doing high lift the smart people will have switched to rollers).

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_8b-XENr7QNE/TQtm5_hWiHI/AAAAAAAABuA/if73I6fHm3A/s1600/don%2527t+care+owl.jpg

Jerry

I am glad that we are all in agreement!!

Whooo gives a hoot - as Jerry points out.

EXPLIXITLY: The X rated version of explicitly?