The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area Engine Shop 261 Intake/Exhaust Advice Needed

I'm in need of some advice.

I sold an intake and exhaust manifold on ebay a couple weeks ago. I pulled them off of a good running 261 out of a 61 chevy truck about 20 years ago. The manifold was not leaking at the time it was pulled, but just in case I checked them over very closely for any signs of cracking or severe warpage before listing them for sale.

My buyer now wants to return the manifold as being unusable because it is warped. The problems that I see is that he took it to a machinist to have it planed. I will post the exchange we've had through ebay messages thus far.

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Buyer: Manifold has been machines and is leaking

Me: So you had it planed at a machine shop, installed it, and now it leaks?

Buyer: Had it planned at a machine shop. Have no idea if it leaked before but it is now installed on my vehicle and must have a crack somewhere as my truck won't hold an idle

Me: Did you separate the intake from the exhaust and replace the gasket between them?

5 Days Later

Buyer: Ok hadn't had time to get to his again. Yes replaced the intake to exhaust gasket & all others. Seems to be warped as when I tried to use the alignment cups, everything was out of whack except the rear two connections. Into this thing for the cost, the shipping and the machine at this point and it shooting smoke out of 4/6 ports.

Me: Your first complaint was that the vehicle wouldn't hold an idle so you asserted that the manifold must be cracked. At some point, you took it apart to replace the mating gasket. My assumption is that you were able to inspect the intake (the only part that would affect idle) for cracks at that point, and I assume you found none, and did this before you had it worked on. Your latest issue does not mention that problem, so I assume your vehicle is idling now. It seems your main complaint now is that the exhaust manifold is leaking along the head. You said you took the manifolds to a machinist to have them planed. I would hope that you changed the gasket and reassembled the manifold prior to having them planed because that's the only way they could be true upon installation. If you changed the gasket after machining then you'd have created problems by upsetting the planing or misaligning the manifolds. I'll assume you did it in the correct order of operations for the sake of argument. If they are now warped, then the machinist did not do his job, because the purpose of planing is to correct warping, if it is within specifications. If it were too warped to plane when I sent it to you, then the machinist should have told you the core was scrap, and refused to cut it. Assuming it was in spec when he got it, if indeed it is warped now after machining then you either got it too hot after machining, or it wasn't flat when you left the machine shop, and the machinist did not do his job correctly. I'm really not sure what I can do other than offer advice at this point. Your assertions of cracking (before) and warping (now) are both things that could have been checked for, spotted, and therefore should have been addressed before other people worked on the parts. I can't be held responsible for the quality of workmanship at a machine shop. He could have over cut (alignment rings too deep) or cut crooked (alignment rings won't align) and both could cause leaks.

Buyer All of that sounds great but the fact remains: I've had this truck for quite a few years now, worked on it throughout and have replaced the original manifold and had no issues until now. I followed the proper order of operations, the truck wasn't able to breath. I ordered the rings and reinstalled, fired again and then contacted you. initially installing it without alignment ringsI've used this machinist before with great results, however I've never purchased parts from you. See where I'm at? Also the purpose of planing is to true the manifold for the sake of mating surfaces. That corrects warping as it appears on the flats of the manifold, planing does not correct the issue of warping in the port alignment. We both know that. Also my initial assumption was a crack and after reconnection and an attempt at realignment, I found that the vehicle would hold idle and there was a warping issue

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After that last exchange is when he did the formal return request... I have not responded yet.

So my problem is this. I've had dozens of these manifolds planed over the years and I've never had an issue with 'port alignment' being off after planing. It's either within tolerance to plane or it's not. I can't see how any of what he's asserting makes any sense. First it 'must be cracked' and now it's warped after having it planed.

I feel like I sent him a good manifold and he's now holding my feet to the fire for either not knowing how to properly install the manifolds, or a machinist not doing their job right. It wouldn't be the first time a machinist got it wrong. I've seen that happen a few times as well.

So set me straight here. Am I out of line or should I fight this with ebay? Thanks for any insight. I do appreciate it.

Here is the auction:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/291879473839?ssPageName=STRK:MESOX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1559.l2649

I assume you sold the manifold in "as is" condition after making a good faith effort to assure it was serviceable. He's trying to hold you responsible for his mistakes, and/or his machinist's errors. Tell him to go whiz up a rope!
Jerry

** Looks to me like the buyer should have been able to detect any problems before taking it to the machine shop. If it were me as the buyer I would not feel right holding the seller responsible for an issue that I should have detected before heading to the machine shop. I have to agree with Hotrod Lincoln the issue is at the machine shop.**

Do you sell regularly on EvilBay? If so you may just want to bite the bullet and agree to disagree on the cause. Your good rating may be worth more to you than the satisfaction of feeling you were right. The old saying "The customer is always right" is in play here. Refund his money upon return (at his expense) but let him know you are doing it under protest. Are you right, probably. Is he wrong, probably. Is it worth fighting over, maybe not.

Thanks guys... So I'm glad to read that at least a few people see this the way I do. More opinions are welcome. I spent some time on the phone with ebay customer service and they said that ultimately because the manifold has been physically altered by planing that I am not required to accept the return. They thanked me for my professional conduct with the buyer and said I could offer partial refund, complete refund, or wait for the buyer to escalate but that they encouraged me to continue to work it out with him. So I am doing that. I do sell regularly on ebay and believe me, my 100% feedback rating since 2001 is precious to me. That said money is tight right now and every bit counts. They said that he could still leave negative feedback but that it can be appealed. I'm hoping that if I continue to play nice that if he does leave negative feedback that I can successfully appeal it. My preference would be that he gets it installed successfully and the whole thing go away. So here's how I responded to him. This is my first response since his last note to me above:

Me: I see that you have requested a return on the manifolds. I just spent some time on the phone with ebay customer service. They reviewed our correspondence and they determined that since you had the manifold planed, which constitutes a physical alteration by removal of metal, that I am not required to accept your return request. I can't be held repsonsible for the work of the machinist. His good past performance is not a gaurantee of good future results.

I'm more than happy to continue to work with you on getting the manifold installed successfully. At this point I'm not inclined to offer a refund. I have dealt with dozens of these manifolds over the years. My father owned a very successful exhaust business for over 50 years and we specialiized in inline engines. I have never had an issue like you are describing. If a manifold can be planed, it can be installed without leaking. If it is warped, it is because the machinist did not do his job, or it's gotten too hot after an improper installation. I spoke with my father about the issue and he concurs. He's is 80 now and has dealt with hundreds of them since starting mechanic work as a teenager in the early 1950's.

It is very easy to tell if the manifold is warped, and we both know how to do that with a straight edge, a good flat welding table,or a heavy piece of flat glass. Your assertion of 'port alignment' doesn't hold water in this situation. If it were warped badly enough that the ports wouldn't align, then any machinist worth his salt would never have cut it to begin with.

There is one way you can possibly get it to align. I would much rather you get a good working manifold than take this any further down a negative road with me. Either the manifold was cut correctly and you just need a little help installing it ( they can be tricky ) or the machinist needs to fix his work.

I have one more trick that has worked for me in the past getting them to mount up. Let me know your thoughts.

I agree with HRL.

Ed

I believe it is an error on the customer, machine shop, or both.


You did not out right ask if the customer had both exhaust and intake machined together as one unit at the same time. You mentioned the importance, but that is not insisting on getting an answer from the customer.

When dealing with a customer you have to carefully ask questions to get at the truth for two reasons.

One, is to paint the customer into a corner so that it makes it harder for them to lie. Two, is to get the best chance at getting the truth so dealing with the customer can be done in an honest manner no matter who is at fault.


Customer: manifold warped and leaks.

Business: what did you do with the manifold when you got it?

C: I got it machined

B: what did you do to it before machining

C: nothing

B: did you separate them first

C: oh yes now that you asked

B: so after you had them apart what was your next step

C: had them machined

B: after you had them machined what did you do next with both manifolds

C: I put them on the engine

B: So you mean after they were machined you put them back together then installed them on the engine

C: yes I put them together and then installed them.


As you see taking the proper time to question you found out that the customer did know what he was doing and his machinist knows less then him.


However mentioning that you have an installation tip is not the same as offering the tip to the customer. To appear customer friendly and helpful then you should not have to be asked does he want to know how to possibly fix the problem but actually tell him how to fix it.

Say you sold that manifold for $150. I lost $150 is what most people think.

But say you got that manifold for free, or $25, or the $100 you paid for that auto to part out you already made $500 on.

You only lost $25 at the most. Thinking this way lessons the pain.

32vld: Those are all good points. I appreciate it. I guess my only intent in witholding the install tip was just to bait him into reopening the dialogue. My thought was that if I offer the tip freely that he could go out and try it without being honest about the results. I also wanted to there to be more evidence of dialogue between us where I keep my cool and he continues accuse me of selling defective parts so that if he does leave negative feedback that I have a better chance of appealing and having it removed. I really would prefer that he has a good working manifold... The other possibility that I am looking at is a possible case of buyers remorse. Maybe he bought this thing and decided he just didn't want a stock setup anymore and figured he'd concoct this story to recoup his investment. Might be far fetched but I think it's within the realm of possibility. In any case I appreciate your insight and can definitely see where you're coming from. Thanks!

The install tip I was going to offer to him is probably well known to most of you guys, and if not, it'd still be common sense to most decent mechanically inclined guys. Heck, maybe he already tried it. If he did, then it proves that the machinist is the weak link here.

ASSUMING MANIFOLD IS SERVICEABLE:

1) Disassemble, inspect, clean, and reassemble with new, high quality mating gasket.

2) Plane mating surfaces true. Install new studs as necessary.

3) Upon installation, loosen bolts that mate intake and exhaust so the two are not rigidly mated.

4) Clean all mounting bolts, studs, nuts thoroughly before starting. Chase threads with a proper die and use a bit of anti seize on newly cleaned and chased threads to aide in ease of installation.

5)Mount assembly to head starting all bolts in the head by hand (not with a wrench or ratchet as this can encourage cross threading ) generally working from the center port toward the ends. Tighten clamping bolts and end bolts finger tight. Then, and only then, snug the mating bolts back up.

6)Put initial cold torque on head bolts according to the manual, and then initial cold torque on the mating bolts.

7) Run vehicle, do secondary torque after it's warmed up.

If this sequence does not work, then the machine work is most likely the culprit.

Like noted above it sounds like he had them machined apart then mounted them together and then installed them. Or possibly the buyers remorse point also noted above. I would stick to your guns and not return it as it has been altered.

Ask him to send you some pictures of it off and bolted together with a straight edge along all the exhaust and intake faces. That would possibly let you know if it was machined all at the same time.

Maybe your point #4 is not allowing the rear bolts to pull in tight enough to pull the intake and exhaust to the head. A test fit using the bolts and retainers with the manifolds off would let him know if they are pulling in correctly.

I hate to say this, but even if you do everything he asks for he can still leave you negative feedback.
My feedback is currently 4,195 and 100% positive so I can stand a hit.

Buyer: "Had it planned at a machine shop. Have no idea if it leaked before but it is now installed on my vehicle and must have a crack somewhere as my truck won't hold an idle."

I don't know this guy, but I don't need to, based on this single statement.
Why would anyone have an intake/exhaust manifold planed before you know whether or not it is warped?
The standard procedure is to bolt it up without a gasket and check for gaps. If you find gaps, you then separate the two manifolds at the heat box, and install a new gasket, and install it to the head with the bolts/nuts loose. Tighten up the manifold-to-head bolts (no gasket), then tighten up the heat box nuts/bolts, and then check for gaps.
He is either ignorant or a liar.
As far as the "customer is always right". This is always good business, however it is up to the seller to provide the customer with enough information so that they can be "right". This skill is what separates the men from the boys in the world of customer relations.
I hope, for your sake, the guy is just ignorant.
Carl

Thanks for your reply Carl. I hope he's just ignorant as well. I never questioned why he had it planed as I figured that was water under the bridge. I checked it before I listed it and it showed no signs of warping or cracks. I figured it was a simple case of some scotch-brite or wire wheel work, gaskets, and then following a procedure like you detailed or I detailed above to install and get'er on down the road...

Either way it's a less than ideal situation! That is for sure.

I believe in the 'customer is always right' theory... It's just that every so often they're not. It's trying to determine if they are wrong because of ignorance or deceit that is the tricky thing. In this situation, I don't feel like he should get off free for either one. If he roached a manifold out of ignorance, then that's a painful lesson he should have to learn. If he's being deceitful then he sure as hell shouldn't get to bend me over. Either way, at this point, if what ebay customer service told me is true it's going to be up to me to take the gamble on negative feedback and appealing it, because I will not be made to accept the return request because he has already had it physically altered.

There have been posts here in the past about an over-thick manifold gasket to help solve problems like this. A little pricey if I remember, but maybe a helpful alternative.

The buyer's complaint doesn't make good nonsense- - - -I believe I could solve the alignment problem and probably the vacuum leak with a file, a piece of angle iron and maybe a little tweaking of torque specifications. A thick gasket is a crutch, not a cure. If the alignment rings end up too thick after a planing job they can hold the manifold away from the head- - - -instant vacuum leak!
Jerry

Thanks everyone for all the insight! I have benefitted greatly from all of your comments. I certainly appreciate all of you contributing to this thread. I have good news! I spoke with an ebay rep today to follow up since he never responded to my last message where I declined to grant the refund but offered to help fix the problem. She reviewed the messages and decided to preemptively open a dispute for me. An hour later, I had a decision in my favor because he had altered the manifold without my permission prior to requesting the return. What's more, the decision said that because they found in my favor, that any negative feedback will be automatically removed and my seller ratings will be unaffected!! So I'm in the clear. I would still like the help the guy get his manifold working if he wants to reach out and bury the hatchet. I think it was chicken-sh*t of him to try to pass it off on me, but maybe it was just ignorance and not deceit. We shall see... Again, thanks!!!

Congratulations, BlueChipper

Your patience, clarity, civility, and persistence paid off.

When someone in the future says "a seller never wins a complaint", we'll know better.

Good luck with trying to help that buyer. Chances are he/she know very little and got screwed by that "machinist".

The alignment sleeves are probably to thick now that the manifold was cut and are causing the problem.

This guy is too much... Almost a month to the day, and I finally get a response from him... Here's how the exchange went. I got a little snappy but not too bad. In any case, I wasn't going to do this, but any of you who may want to block this guy as a bidder, PM me and I'll give you his handle. This dude is a bonehead and I'd hate for him to cost you money.

Buyer: Busy time. My truck still isn't working. The 3rd port/ 2nd exhaust port has a crack and will not seal. Nonrefundable because of preparation for use is an absolute ripoff. This is precisely why so many have moved away from eBay.Even spent near $50 on a remflex gasket. It's the manifold

Me: You are like a politician with your constant story changing. First it's cracked, then it's not, then it is, AFTER MACHINE WORK!!!...Look, I tried to be civil and help you get it sorted, and you chose to try to take me to the wood shed for something that was not my fault. I did the best I could to inspect for cracks and defects prior to shipping. If you had taken it to a machinist that was worth their salt, they'd have found any cracks I missed prior to machining, and refused to cut it. They'd have found a manifold beyond tolerance for more cutting ( alignment ring bottoming out , etc. ) In that case, I'd have been happy to issue a full refund and tell you to scrap it. You have wasted more time and more money doing all the wrong things to diagnose a problem that most likely did not exist than I can believe. I can't imagine taking much more than a couple hours to determine the problem and get a solution figured out. The fact is that you did not follow the proper procedure, and you have no one to blame but yourself for the situation you find yourself in. I'm no big fan of a lot of ebay policy making, but this one is one of the few good ones. If you alter my parts, and then try to get a refund, you're going to lose out. You've assumed all responsibility for this, like it or not. I hope for your sake you get something figured out but I doubt you will because you're either ignorant, a crook, or just suffer from a bad case of denial. I hope you've learned something from all this and don't destroy the next manifold you buy through willful ignorance. This is my final reply. I will not respond again. So feel free to say whatever you want response to this. It makes no difference to me anymore.

Buyer: Look I don't know what your problem is & im certainly not going to read all of this bulls**t you've written. All I know is what I've experienced time and time again with this thing, there is a leak stemming from the 3rd port and it's not my engine wall. The manifold I've purchased from you is at fault. Enjoy the money I've given you. Let me know if you need any more financial help. I'm here to give you handouts.And speaking of politicians, that seems to be the one thing we might agree on here: that election could've gone either way and our country still deserves far better. Take care and tell the wife dinner's on me


Of course, I have not, and will not respond again as I said I would not...

My favorite part is where he says that he doesn't know what my problem is and certainly won't read any of the 'bulls**t' I wrote... I'm guessing that's how he treated the messages that contained offers of helping him fix it as well...

Oh well. PM me if you want to avoid this clown.

His statement is true, but not for the reason he thinks...

While this discussion was going on, I had a similar experience. I sold a guy a relatively rare part on eBay and described it exactly along with several pictures. About two weeks after he received it, he contacted me with a nasty tone and told me the part wasn't what I said it was. He challenged my integrity, threatened to turn me over to the eBay police, etc. He would have done better just to respectfully get in touch with me to question the item, but he came out guns blazing.

I knew he was wrong. His expert machine shop told him that they could refurbish his old part (which I knew they couldn't), so he wanted a refund even though it was sold no-refund.

Having followed BlueChipper's saga...and being a fairly patient guy who doesn't like to have his integrity challenged...I told him that I would gladly not only give him a refund, but I would cover his freight both ways as long as the part was returned in the same condition in which it was sent. If he felt that I lied to him, I was willing to make him whole. I also explained why he was mistaken about the part and why his machine shop couldn't do what they said they could if he wanted to rethink it, but my offer was on the table.

Heck, I could always sell the part for more than I sold it to him anyway! I mentioned that to him and suggested that he might want to sell it to make a few bucks instead of returning it.

Well, he returned the part to me and I gave him his refund. Now, guess what? He discovered the error in his ways and his machinist told him that he can't do what he thought he could do. He really needs the part back because he can't find another one and he is stranded. Would I please sell it back to him?

The part sits on my bench as a trophy. As Michelle Obama says, "When they go low, we go high." No way it will go back to him.

BlueChipper, thanks for sharing your story. It helped me to handle my situation with a smile. Life is too short to deal have to deal with jerks. Better to just push them off to the side and forget about them.

Matt

Can't help but smile, Matt.
One can question my knowledge and ability.
No one will get away with questioning my integrity.
Carl

"As Michelle Obama says, "When they go low, we go high." No way it will go back to him."

Tell the born-again buyer (who went low) that parts has now increased in value (go high).

Would I please sell it back to him

Go to your Seller dashboard and ban him as a buyer.
Give me his user ID and I'll do the same.