The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area Engine Shop Couple of Motor questions

Background:
1954 235 motor complete rebuild currently 5,000 miles, mechanical lifters, 6 volt system, petronix in distributor, starter and flywheel from a 216 motor, foot pedal starter (rebuilt), generator. Battery is new optimum red top 6 v.

When jump starting with 12 volts the motor semms to turn over a little faster.

Question 1). Can the flywheel be installed in such a way that the timing marks are not valid? I have tried timing with the vacuum gauge to verily success. Runs good hard to start.

Question 2). Even timed to the timing mark and valves adjusted (Hot) the motor is still hard to turn over. It just barely turns over and then acts like it hits a low compression cycle and usually starts right up. Any idea about what to check/verify.

I am going to take the starter off and have it checked by the local starter rebuilder next.

Is there anything else I should check?

On my 1962 235 motor the 6 volt starter spins the motor over pretty fast and strong.

Make sure your cables are the proper size (gauge) and that all the connections are clean and tight.

Always leave something out.

Cables are size 00, and have cleaned the battery and starter ends.

Also When ever I hook up 12 volts to start I always connect to ground cable from motor.

Might as well go ahead and add that the battery is grounded to the frame in the motor compartment and the motor flywheel cover/clutch section is grounded to the same point on the frame.

Get the heaviest cables that you can. Some one that remembers the correct gauge will come along.

If the cables you have are extra/too long get the correct length cables because extra length adds extra resistance.

I have not changed a stovebolt flywheel. So can they go on the wrong is a go question. Though even if there is only one way a flywheel can go on it does not matter because the timing mark on the 216 has to be at the same location as the timing mark on the 1954 235. If not then you can not use the timing marks on the 216.

You would have to find a 54 235 flywheel to locate the timing mark location then use it as a guide to put the correct timing mark on your 216 flywheel.

Though if you found the right flywheel then you would not have to correct the 216 flywheel because you could just use the 54 flywheel.

But there is hope. A member here hotrodlincoln just recently did a post on how to time an engine without a timing light. Do a search or PM him and he can tell you how to find that link. Jeffrey

00 is a large/good gauge - a smaller 2 gauge was original.

Do you have 00 for positive and all negative grounds?
Did you clean all cable connection surfaces?

I am pretty certain that a 216/235/261 flywheel cannot be installed incorrectly.

What is your vacuum reading at idle?

How did you adjust your carburetor?

What is the terminal voltage of the battery while the engine is cranking? If it's below 4.5 volts you either have a bad battery, a bad starter, or there's trouble inside the engine that's causing too much drag. If a battery load tester is available, load the battery down to the same voltage as when the engine is cranking and see what the amperage load is. Try cranking the engine with the spark plugs removed and compare the cranking speed with the compression relieved.

Making wild guesses about electrical problems without adequate troubleshooting is a good way to spend a lot of money needlessly. Like Sun Electric Co. used to say, "We Test, Not Guess!"
Jerry

New Info on hard starting motor

1). With key off or on voltage at the starter is 6.2v

2). Cranking voltage with key off or on is the same 5.7v when motor spinning freely and 4.7 when motor seems to be under hi compression. (Still making a couple of turns then seems to hit a high compression and then starts spinning freely again).

3). Remove all spark plugs and motor spins over with good speed. Voltage at starter is 5.8v.

4). Motor continues to spin over good until the third spark plug is re-installed. Does not matter what cylinder is the third spark plug.

5). No difference in the way the motor spins over with key off or on.

Any more ideas or things to check. Right now I am going to get the starter checked Monday at the local starter rebuilder.

You've got some internal starter problems- - - -possibly shorted windings in the armature and/or worn bushings that are allowing the armature to drag the pole shoes. Once the compression load goes onto the starter it slows down.
Jerry

To All,

Thanks for the information and help with resolving my problem associated with hard starts.

I talked to the local starter rebuilder and had a somewhat disappointing results. I told him the test that had been run and the results. Rebuilder checked the starter and said he did not think anything was wrong with the starter. He did not test under load with I thought was wrong.

I open up the starter to take a look at the guts and they did not look bad. No drag marks and the brushes had plenty left and the springs holding them in place were strong.

So I bit the bullet and jacked the 47 Fleetmaster up and took the starter off it. After putting that starter on the 51 truck it turned over really good.

So I do have a bad starter. Not sure what is wrong with it but I am wondering if maybe when it was rebuilt they rebuilt it for 12 volts.

Now I have to find a new local starter rebuilder as the one the family have been using forever did not seem to care what I had to say about the starter.

Thanks for all the help.

Final update,

I got home from the required family traveling to see relatives over Thanksgiving. Was sitting in the recliner when I remembered that I had an extra starter. Went to the shed and was able to find the starter and removed the armature and install in the starter for the truck. The truck now starts better than it has since being rebuilt.

Thanks to everybody who gave hints and advice on how to find the problem.

I now believe that I will not have to charge the battery every time I start the truck.

There is a replaceable bushing in the nose of many starters, if worn, causes similar results, easy to replace.

Ed