Hi all, well I ran into another issue with the old Cameo. I am in the middle of installing a dropped axle from Sids and Posies slider springs when I discovered a major problem with the drivers side front leave spring frame bracket. It's really bad...please see the video below. Easier watched then explained.
What would be the best way to secure this? Drill out the rivets and and bolt it down with grade 8 hardware...weld it to the frame...?
I'm probably just going to drill out the rivets and bolt it to the frame, but if there is a better way I am all ears!
I would definitely drill the rivets out to remove the bracket to check for any sort of damage behind the bracket. Most likely, you'll find the holes are ovaled out. If there's no serious problems (cracks), bolting it on with grade 8 will be fine.
I watched your video. As rust free and straight as your frame appears, I can't understand how that could even happen! Maybe Rosey the riveter was drunk, hungover, or day dreaming about getting drunk after work, and didn't set those rivets to begin with. Carl
1952 5-window - return to "as built" condition | 1950 3100 with a 235 and a T-5 transmission
I really can't understand why those rivets came lose like that either, but...I guess it is what it is. And who knows how long the truck was on the road that way.
I'll probably start taking out the rivets tomorrow. I think there are 4 total. Two on the side and two on the bottom. I am not looking forward to the two on the bottom side...I have a feeling those are going to be a bear.
I just hope the frame is OK behind that bracket so I can move on with the rest of the suspension.
Be sure when using bolts that the straight shank of the bolt fits the hole tight. You will likely have to drill out to a bigger size and use custom length bolts. What you don't want is the threads of the bolt inside the holes as the diameter is smaller then the shank. Rivets hold tight because they swell when peened over, filling the hole completely. Not only does this hold tight, there is zero room for the bracket to slide. If you just shove bolts in and tighten them, the only holding power is the squeezing effect. The bracket can still wiggle around since the bolts are smaller diameter then the holes. Use longer then needed bolts so the threads are out side the hole, then cut off excess threads once together for a cleaner look.
Great advice, thank you Joe. I will do exactly what you said it makes perfect sense. I have a feeling i'll have to oversize as those holes are probably ovaled out.
Not looking forward to this repair but gotta get it done.
It will be very difficult to get the bracket "UP" tight AND "IN" tight unless all holes are line drilled while bracket is held, up and in, tight. If holes are ovaled out in one direction and not the other, that will bolt up nicely and be OK. Tolerances of the frame and the bracket hole locations may cause gaps. As you know you are bolting in two planes. The slightly larger holes may be to your advantage. After bolting, it won't move. Torque per size chart. There are only two choices: line drilling things dead nuts or provide clearance holes to accommodate location tolerance. Riveting "eats" some tolerance. Also the frame is not a perfect 90 deg and neither is the forged bracket. Some Gaposis is OK. Not trying to make this sound like rocket science, it's not, just a bolting discussion. Agree with Joe about shank. The bolt will be stronger if the threads are not carrying the load. Seeing things riveted makes us think they have to be bolted like riveted. Not true in this case. Can't move up or down because it's clamped, can't move in and out because it's clamped. It could only move forward and backward, but all four holes would have to be off in the same axis on the correct side of the bolt because it could only move straight back. As Carl says something really wrong happened. Do I see a slightly different head on those rivets? Again, with Carl, I gotta say four or more factory rivets don't come loose. Could be a bad PO rivet fix. Use bolts and lock washers this time. Try to find USA made lock washers. Grade 5 bolts will be plenty strong. As in: 4+ tons per pair for a 5/16 bolt.
Thank you Bartamos for laying that out. I will be sure to get bolts with the shanks long enough so that the threads stars after the load. I have a really nice fastener shop close to me and they have a large selection of both 5 and 8 grade fasteners. If you were going do this repair, would you go with 5 or 8 if both were available? I have read that there can be a disadvantage to grade 8 bolts, even though the are stronger, because they don't tolerate flex/vibration as must as 5.
I really don't know what happened to that bracket. The passenger side is solid as a rock. I took a look at the rivets on the lose bracket and it does appear that the rivet heads are different...one appears to stick out further then the other. I cleaned everything up but I cant find any witness marks of repair or replacing rivets...no grinding, scratches, etc...
It is a myth that anything is wrong with grade 8. They are stronger in all respects. Gr8 is not brittle, both Gr5 and Gr8 are ductile, medium carbon steels. I have bolted suspension components; and I used grade 5 that I had laying around. (Both are always available). If kits come with Gr8, I use them. If 4 tons shear strength per side is not impressive, use 8's. Waste of money, but not much money. Sounds like you will feel better using 8's, that's OK. For the bottom Rivets: Jack it way up, use stands, grind off heads, leave enough to see the center (.020), drill 1/4 hole X 1/4 deep into rivet shank, stick punch in that hole and punch up. I could never get an air chisel to knock off head so I grind. Try not to gouge up the frame. Wear enough protection so as not to be distracted while grinding under there if you choose to do it that way. Be sure you have the leaf spring installed before you tighten this bracket down.
Weird mystery for sure. Maybe even a factory repair by an apprentice riveter or an incomplete accident repair at some stage. Check the straightness of the frame in that area or other signs of collision.
Thinking a little outside the box here, maybe you could measure the amount of frame width and bracket width, then pull or press a similar diameter, similar shoulder width wheel stud into the hole. The shoulder on the wheel stud would center the bracket onto the frame.
Admin for Turbobuick.com 87 GN, and new toy: 1955 Chevy 3200 pickup, soon to have: 383, Cola crank, Childs/Albert 6 inch rods, Brownfield heads, 10:1 KB hypers, CompCam 284 Extreme Energy, Tilton Plate transmission realignment and built Turbo400.
Well, today I managed to get a little work done on that leaf bracket. I removed the two rivets holding the bracket to the side of the frame. It was my first time removing rivets, man those rascals are in there good. I basically used a small flap wheel and took the heads off of the rivets as carefully as I could to avoid any damage to the bracket. Then I drilled a small center into each and beat them out with a long pointed pry-bar and small sledge.
As hard as those were to remove I'm a little worried about getting the 2 remaining rivets out. They go through the frond and rear of the bracket on the bottom, through the frame, and then through the cross-member. I've got some nice and small 2" 80 grit flap wheels I can get on my die grinder that should have enough clearance to get the heads off of the rivets in that tight space. I just don't know if i'll be able to get enough leverage to tap them out laying on my back. I'm getting a headache just thinking about it!
I'll let you guys know how that deal goes. I'll probably try and remove one of the bottom rivets tomorrow.
Good effort so far. 1. A flap wheel is not for that. Use a genuine hard wheel made for metal. 2. Cut slots in the head if that's all you can reach. Then run the wheel back and forth or knock off the head with a chisel. 3. Drilled a small hole? Drill a 1/4 inch diameter hole by 1/4 deep. Center punch, drill 1/8 x 1/8 deep first, if you want. 4. Are you saying that the cross member is not loose? If cross member is tight or if it looks like having the cross member involved will create too many problems, maybe you can push the bracket up and in tight, hold it with the new side bolts and drill two extra holes for the bottom new bolts. Just a thought before you realize you have to take the cross member off or there is no access to de-rivet. 5. You can't damage the bracket by just kissing it with the grinder. A few shallow gouges will not hurt it. 6. Don't Mickey Mouse with this... cut, grind, man handle, chisel, punch and blast. BFH, kill and maim. Not Dremel/flap disc/die grinder magnitude. 4 1/2" angle grinder 3/16-1/4 thick wheel magnitude. Sparks everywhere ...yeah!!!
Use shouldered Allen bolts and ream the holes for a fit that's just shy of being pressed into place. Just drilling the holes oversize to get them round won't be rigid enough to prevent them from wobbling out again. Hot-set rivets would be the best fix. Jerry
"It is better to be silent and be thought a fool than to speak and eliminate all doubt!" - Abraham Lincoln Cringe and wail in fear, Eloi- - - - -we Morlocks are on the hunt! There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self. - Ernest Hemingway Love your enemies and drive 'em nuts!
IF I read correctly, my opinion is that will only work if bracket is clamped up and in; and all holes are line drilled. Otherwise the tolerances of many holes on two planes will not allow it. In other words, you can not drill holes in each piece separately if using a near tight fit fastener. Not saying that is what Jerry said.
Jaydee: Line drilling means all holes are drilled thru all pieces at once, as all pieces are clamped together. It would be near impossible to do if several holes are wallowed. You may end up with some pretty big holes/bolts. I recommend you refer to, and consider, my post 1183454. Once you get the bracket off, if you decide to completely remove it, you will be in better shape to access the amount of hole elongation. (wallowization) Hey, it's a word now.
Ok, let me first say that I have read all of the advice posts and I think you all for taking the time to help.
I've just started on removing the rivets on the underside of the leaf bracket. I'm gonna take my time with these...it's going to be a bear pounding those out of the frame on my back under the truck. I'm not sure if i'll be able to really, but I'll do my best to figure out a way to get them out.
I plan on completely removing the bracket, I really want to see the frame behind it and if there is damage lurking.
I don't have the room nor the tooling to repair this as some have advised. I wish I did! It will have to be bolted back in place, that's the best I can do with what I have. One thing I can do is repair any elongated holes...I have done some welding time under my belt and fixing metal with new weld is something I have some experience with. I might be able to repair the holes if the frame isn't totally FUBAR.
Anyway, I think I'm getting a bit ahead of myself here, first gotta get those 2 remaining rivets out and drop that bracket. I just wanted to let you know I've been reading your posts and appreciate your help.
This week was hectic at work and just didn't have time to dig in on the truck. Getting home late pretty much every night.
Going to hunker down on it tomorrow morning and give it my best. I know I gotta get it done. That's all I really have stopping me from putting that front end back together and the other half is wanting the garage space back.
On a side note, if there is something sinister hiding behind that bracket I've found a 56 short bed frame locally for a reasonable price. If we have a worst case scenario, I'll probably get it. However, I'd really like to keep the truck complete as it's a matching numbers (frame and cab tag) truck.
I'll get a video up with that progress. I'm sure i'll need more advice as I go.
Here's the tool you need to do the job right- - - -it's called a "bridge reamer". It's used to align holes in two or more pieces of metal before they're bolted or riveted together. I'd recommend the 3/8" diameter one, after drilling the hole to 11/32" or so and clamping the part to the frame for a final line-reaming.
The tapered shank would need to be machined straight so the reamer could be used in a 1/2" capacity variable speed drill motor. Use lots of lubricant and as slow a cutting speed as possible. Jerry
"It is better to be silent and be thought a fool than to speak and eliminate all doubt!" - Abraham Lincoln Cringe and wail in fear, Eloi- - - - -we Morlocks are on the hunt! There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self. - Ernest Hemingway Love your enemies and drive 'em nuts!
Hot-set rivets are best, Allen-head shoulder bolts in reamed holes are next and Grade 8 bolts with smooth shanks would be my last choice. Use SAE flat washers on both sides and red Loctite instead of lock washers if you choose to bolt it back on, after drilling the holes to make sure they're as round as possible, with the part clamped tightly in place while you're drilling. Jerry
"It is better to be silent and be thought a fool than to speak and eliminate all doubt!" - Abraham Lincoln Cringe and wail in fear, Eloi- - - - -we Morlocks are on the hunt! There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self. - Ernest Hemingway Love your enemies and drive 'em nuts!
Great job. Holes don't look bad at all. Should bolt up nicely. Washers can be used to spread the clamp force if you wish. Washers are not always required. They should be used under the turned element. (nut or head) They are used to prevent galling sometimes and on enlarged holes. There no reason not to use them in this situation. I always use them under a lock washer. Follow correct torque values for size of bolt. Bolts are equal to, or stronger than, rivets and way cheaper for all of us who don't have rivet tools and torches to heat these big, carbon steel, solid rivets. I use rivets all over the place to fix a lot of things but they are smaller pop rivets. I like rivets. I have a pneumatic hydraulic rivet gun. I riveted new seats and deck on an aluminum boat a month ago. I don't hate rivets. I designed with solid aluminum rivets for 40 years....and spot welding and bolts. They are the correct technique for a totally authentic restoration for sure. They have almost faded away in building and auto construction.
Got the bracket bolted back into the frame. I used 7/16-20 plated grade 8 plated bolts/nuts/washers/lock washers. It's in there good and strong and luckily for me only one fastener needed a little encouragement getting in place. The other three lined up perfectly and all were a tight fit..
I did my research and multiple charts said the lb-ft spec for those bolts was 58 lb-ft. That seems light to me but that was the spec I found. I ended up torquing them to 60 lb-ft.
Before I go any further, I wanted your opinions on that torque spec. If I need to increase it, it will be a lot easier with it still apart.
You used fine thread, 7//16-14 is course. Looks like 70 Ft Lbs to me. Some say dry at 80 and lubed at 60. Fine and course are different values. Charts are all over the place. Some charts go over 100 lbs. Also even though I recommended lock washers they don't provide much at that size bolt. They will not really prevent loosening. But don't worry, your bolts won't loosen because of the torque/friction/stretch. Known as preload. 70-75 is tight enough IMO. Deformed thread lock nuts instead of regular nuts would be extra safety if you wish. Those would be used with just a flat washer. Lock washers are mostly for smaller/delicate screws/bolts. But we can't resist using them. I can't. Some studies say it's spring rate is 70% more effective than a flat washer. But it actually is a flat washer after compressed. NASA says it is their least favorite locking method and is useless.
This is a supposed quote from ASME B18.21.1, I don't have a copy yet so unverified:
"The word lock appearing in the names of products in this standard is a generic term historically associated with their identification and is not intended to imply an indefinite permanency of fixity in attachments where the fasteners are used."
These guys love to make up words like fixity. Awesome.
Bottom line depends on what it is. High performance rod bolts have their stretch measured, your bracket can be off torque 10-15% and still be safe.
I've torqued a bunch of 7/16" NASCAR connecting rod bolts to over 100 ft/lbs., but they're a bit better alloy than Grade 8. I'd recommend 65-70, with a drop or two of red Loctite to make sure they don't vibrate loose. Good luck! Jerry
"It is better to be silent and be thought a fool than to speak and eliminate all doubt!" - Abraham Lincoln Cringe and wail in fear, Eloi- - - - -we Morlocks are on the hunt! There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self. - Ernest Hemingway Love your enemies and drive 'em nuts!
Hi Bart and Hotrod...home from work and just finished reading up on your posts.
I think what I will do is remove the nuts and lock washers and put on those deformed thread lock nuts and torque everything down to 70. I will drop some red loctite (got some sitting on the shelf) on the threads as well for extra measure. I though about tacking the nuts and bolts together but loctite sounds a lot better, won't have to grind those bolts out if I am ever in a position to do a proper repair and rivet the bracket back to the frame!
"Prevailing torque nut" is the technical name. Sorry to say but, good luck finding Gr8 7/16-20. You will see them on the net but they are not really there Amazon shows them at $20 each?
How about just red Loctite on super clean threads. Torque and forget about it...... Unless your handy dandy bolt place has the nuts at reasonable price.
All that being said, all I ever use is lock washers. I don't want to pretend to use deformed thread or Loctite.
You will get approximately 10 times the locking force from red Loctite than you'll get from those squashed-thread nuts. Using both together is a very good idea for a part that's not going to be removed in the forseeable future. Split lock washers are totally ineffective, and can actually spread out and distort under high torque. I never use them when I'm going to be really cranking down on a fastener. If you feel you must use a lockwasher, the starburst-shaped ones without a split are much better. Jerry
"It is better to be silent and be thought a fool than to speak and eliminate all doubt!" - Abraham Lincoln Cringe and wail in fear, Eloi- - - - -we Morlocks are on the hunt! There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self. - Ernest Hemingway Love your enemies and drive 'em nuts!
Looks good. Will not come loose. I think that hole may be for radio antenna cable. Also, speaking of new roller bearing kit being cheaper than new ball bearings...... O'Reilly PN for wheel cylinders (no mess, no risk of screw up, lifetime warranty and kits have Chinese "rubber" same as O'Reilly's new cylinder). WC13387 WC13388 $9 & $10= $19 Wheel cylinder kits $6 x 2= $12 or more and/or shipping Maximum Delta $7
I'll be getting 2 new wheel cylinders from O'Reilly! That's a great deal, the specialty shop in my area wants 27 dollars each. I can get both for less than the price of one at O'Reilly...I'm all over that.
I pulled that leaky cylinder apart and it's probablyh not repairable anyway. The bore is scored and has a couple of burs...no good. It was full of gunk so even though the other side isn't leaking I'm just gonna replace it while its apart and flush the system as best I can.
I've still got to get to the back brakes too, can't wait to see whats lurking beneath! I have a feeling i'll probably just replace both of those as well.
This truck sat for over 30 years so I can only imagine.
Full of gunk? Be careful not to re-contaminate with dirty rears and gunky lines, master cylinder. Flush is iffy and can just move gunk around. SNAFU recipe. 30 years means it is FOR SURE all rusty gunk from condensation/absorption and decomposed internals.
Will do...the fluid that came out of the rubber line looked clean when I unscrewed it from the wheel cylinder...i'll pull the master cylinder cap and have a look.
But inside the master cylinder it was pretty bad. Guess I might need to get some fluid and a helper and bleed the entire system a couple times over before putting on those new cylinders. I will do that.
The truck did stop well before I pull it all apart.
Edited while you posted, reread. All parts/lines should be replaced, all new fluid, I know you hate to hear that. Skimp on the dangling fuzzy dice, not the brakes.
Originally Posted by bartamos
Full of gunk? Be careful not to re-contaminate with dirty rears and gunky lines, master cylinder. Flush is iffy and can just move gunk around. SNAFU recipe. 30 years means it is FOR SURE all rusty gunk from condensation/absorption and decomposed internals.
I agree with bartamos on this one. You will not regret it. You don't have to go with pre-bent stainless steel lines, but that is what I do. Just another level of piece of mind. Carl
1952 5-window - return to "as built" condition | 1950 3100 with a 235 and a T-5 transmission
Ok, I had to have a beverage and let it sink it. And I agree with you guys. I won't be able to do it yet, it will take a few weeks to save up.
Looks like i'll be getting 4 wheels cylinders from O'Reilly's! And If I can afford it I think I will get the pre-bent stainless lines.
The plan is to keep this truck old school so I want it manual and drums. With that in mind, if the master cylinder is rusty inside and needs to be replaced, is it worth the effort and cost to convert to a dual reservoir master cylinder or necessary because I am keeping everything else stock?
Dual is "safer" but plenty of trucks running around with single. If everything is new is seems like single would be as safe as the day it left factory. But it's 50/50 your choice.
When you get the stainless brake lines, tighten and loosen each fitting several times. You will notice the nut turns a little bit further each time you do this. Doing this form-fits the lines to the fittings. Stainless is harder than steel lines, thus needing this procedure to prevent leaks.
1952 5-window - return to "as built" condition | 1950 3100 with a 235 and a T-5 transmission
I opened up the master cylinder today and it looks really clean in there...I had some extra DOT 3 so I bleed the front brake lines and there was just a little crude that came out. Hard to tell if it's dirt or rust...either way I was glad to see that it was minimal.
I think most of the junk in that wheel cylinder made its way in there from the holes in the rubber end seals. After I took it off I took a close look I saw that both had multiple cracks.
Either way, I'm gonna go with your recommendation guys.
Thank you for the tip on the stainless lines...I will do that. I had a look at how they are routed through the frame rails and cross members and it looks like it's going to be tricky getting the old lines out and the new ones in place. It's pretty tight in some places.
Hey, it's a word now.
