The Stovebolt Site Forums The Parking Lot Tons 'o Fun Revisit tapered wheel bearing for front

I did a search and read what I could find on tapered bearings not being available for the front of the 1 tons. I don't have the equipment or knowledge to machine the hub or make a bushing for the bearings. Is anyone on the forum willing to make a set of bushings for some timken tapered bearings?
My current plan is to either build a custom cabover camper for the flatbed or find a vintage one. I hope to do a fair amount of traveling with it and it will need to be able to do 60-65mph for extended periods. It will have a 302 engine, HO72 pumpkin swap and disc brake conversion on the front. The weak spot as I see it is the bearings.
I appreciate any help or advice. Tim

I like your camper idea, for years I've been day dreaming and collecting pictures of original aluminum/metal camper tops. I intend to make one real simple with just fold down cots/bunks on each side, more a truck cap than an actual camper. That'll be a few or many years down the road yet.


I searched too on the bearings, It seems that the imported/aftermarket tapered bearings that were available a few years ago are no longer available.

The original ball bearings are available and while not cheap aren't ridiculously expensive either. They also work quite well, really nothing "wrong" with ball type wheel bearings.

Here are some of the more useful threads on the subject of swapping/adapting more common tapered bearings.
https://www.stovebolt.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/629388/Grigg.html#Post629388

https://www.stovebolt.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/821239.html#Post821239

https://www.stovebolt.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=956511

I don't know of anyone that has followed up on the bearing swap idea and made it happen.
One of the unanswered questions is the grease seal behind the inner bearing which originally runs on the extended inner bearing race, unlikely a tapered bearing also allows this.

This Timken catalog might be useful.
http://www.timken.com/en-us/products/Documents/Timken-Tapered-Roller-Bearing-Catalog.pdf

There might be a decent solution if you're willing to do the research and decide what off the shelf bearings and then what machine work, bushings, or spacers might be necessary.

Let us know what you come up with!

Grigg

Grigg, I've ordered replacement bearings similar to OEM but the tapered bearings have been haunting me. I'm concerned about side loads and heat build up carrying 1900-2500 lbs of camper and traveling at 65 for extended periods. In short I was worried I might cause bearing failure.

I understand the desire for tapered roller bearings, nothing wrong with going that rout if you can and want to.

However I expect the original ball type will handle what you're asking of them just fine and save a lot of trouble, expense, and aggravation.

First weight, the camper should be predominantly over the rear axle so not a lot of extra weight on the front. The GVW of 8,800 lb leaves about 4,400lb of capacity after subtracting the truck weight which is double your camper weight estimate, not even close to overloaded.

Second speed, the 1/2 tons have similar bearings and travel at higher speeds, and 10-15 mph over stock doesn't seem that extreme. My modern car has ball type bearings front and rear with not a much distance between the inner and outer bearing halves, and it rolls along at a pretty good clip on smaller tires, so even more RPM.

Third side loads, I don't think you're imposing any more than the original truck. When I was younger I drove mine quite fast into and through the corners which would give pretty good side load and had no issues. You're unlikely to take the corners unreasonably fast with a tall camper in the bed. And straight line driving as you might do when traveling shouldn't produce significant side loading on the bearings.


Again, if you want to research and troubleshoot and make up some drawings of what needs to be made to use tapered roller bearings please do. That info if easily achievable would be beneficial to others, but as of yet it hasn't been done, there might not be an easy solution.

In the meantime I'd use good quality and suitable grease, torque and adjust them per the book, and check the temperature occasionally just for piece of mind. The cost of some spare original type bearings and seals in the glove box might be more agreeable than the head scratching and frustration of trying to adapt other bearings. But if you do be sure to let us know the details!

Grigg

Sound reasoning. OEM style bearings it is. I certainly wasn't looking for another major diversion in this project. Thanks.

Send me one each of the original bearings and the ones you intend to use as replacements. Making adapter bushings shouldn't be much of a challenge. The inner seal area would be a simple spacer for the seal to ride on, attached to the spindle with Loctite. PM or email if you wish.

Jerry

Jerry, the assembled inner wheel bearing height or width plus the newly made seal ring spacer cant be more than the original assembled bearing height or the hub will be shifted from the original position.
I've started to look into this and I'm not sure they make a thin enough tapered roller bearing assembly with appropriate ID and OD. Perhaps they do?

I believe the links provided above to threads with original bearing specifications, possible replacement bearings, and and the Timken catalog together can answer this question if you have the time and desire to go through it, find possible combinations and make the calculations.

Grigg

I've seen those bearings, and the inner bearing includes an extended section of the race that's at least 1/4" wide, and maybe a bit more, that's designed to give a replaceable surface for the seal to contact. Machining a spacer that width would allow a standard-width bearing cone to be substituted. It would probably need to be casehardened to prevent the seal from wearing a groove in it, although seal surfaces on a spindle aren't usually hardened, so that might not be necessary. A very slight space-out of the hub and brake drum shouldn't cause a problem, as long as there's adequate room to tighten and cotter-pin the spindle nut, and the brake shoes still have a drum surface to ride.

Another possibility might be to machine a larger diameter and/or deeper counterbore in the hub to accept a bigger cone/cup pair, and machine bushings to adapt the bearings to the spindle diameters. a suitable-size grease seal would also have to be researched if that option was chosen.
Jerry

Yep, all good ideas just need to research what works best.

If machine work on the hub and spindle can be avoided the solution will be easier for others to adopt.

Grigg

I have the MBS tapered bearings installed on my 54. To be honest, I'm less than pleased with the fitment. First off, I had to emery clothe the hub to get the races in, they were crazy tight. I then had to emery the spindle just to get them on. Not to mention, you can't drive the seals on all the way, and I had to use machine bushings behind them because I couldn't get any pre-load on them.

When I researched the Timken replacement a few years ago, finding something suitable for the inside bearing wasn't a problem. The outer bearing is the odd duck. It would need to be machined and threaded for a 3/4 nut.

Anyhow, If I were to do it all over again, OEM ball bearing all the way. They used these bearing on 3600-4100 trucks, and the 4400 were similar, seems to me they are up to snuff for just about anything.

Good to know about those tapered bearings (no longer available). Sounds like so much other imported "restoration parts" they look about right but the fit, function, and usually reliability suffer.
Whoever had those bearings made shouldn't have had much difficulty researching and specifying the very same diameters and tolerances on the new bearings as the original ball bearings had for OD and ID. Not that it matters now but I wonder if they got that right or didn't try, and/or if they just weren't made to spec?

I had forgotten the 4100 and 4400 use the same axle, spindle, and bearings as the 1 ton. So again the original bearings aren't really deficient in weight capacity for a 1 ton.


Mostly people might be confused by seeing ball bearings as wheel bearings and wonder why they didn't use taper roller bearings. This leads to a desire to find tapered bearings "just because" and not because of any significant shortcoming in the ball bearings.

Grigg

I've wondered if would be a worthwhile venture to have new spindles cast or even billet machined. Probably to cost prohibitive to be worthwhile. If there were a huge demand, maybe. Seems like most of these end up with frame or suspension swaps.

Well, I feel like a squirrel in the road...right, left, no go back. I guess at this point I will install OEM bearings because I have them already and will leave the tapered bearings alone. Somewhere I read (Brothers trucks site?) about the increased side loads that modern speeds create and the excessive wear on older ball bearings. Since I'm doing the pumpkin swap and 302 to allow for speeds of 65 or so I thought the weak point might be the bearings. Maybe not so much. Anyway, there are so many simultaneous tasks to address that I'd be happy to scratch the bearing mod off the list if not really a substantiated problem.
Thanks to everyone for the input and to Hotrod Lincoln for the offer to make the bushings for the tapered bearings.
On a related note and with that camper in mind, do I stay with the original single action lever shocks or retrofit modern shocks? So far I've been unable to find replacement lever action
shocks.

If you have good lever action shocks they ought to work.
If you need to rebuild them or find some to start with I'd just as soon update with the modern tube type. Assuming strict originality is not so important to you.

I have single action lever shocks front and rear but was hoping to find a rebuild kit to freshen them up at least.

Been gone a lot this summer touring (so no posting) in my 51 3800 pickup with camper. The whole rig weighs ~9,000lbs. and I run 60-65 on the interstate. I've had the truck for many, many years and have replaced two front wheel ball bearings in that time -- perhaps 180,000 miles. I've put it on the scale and the front axle weighs 3200lbs loaded. It's rated for 3500, as I recall. So this belated note is just to comfort the OP who is concerned about ball bearing life. Go for it! And look for an Avion camper. They look a bit like an Airstream, are well made and look really cool. They show up on Craig's list now and again.

I found a little explanation on wheel bearings, it helps. Thanks to Porsche NLA parts.
I have a 1957 356A coupe and I plan to service the front axles, drums and brakes. I’ve heard that the original ball bearings should be changed over to roller bearings. Why should I do that? What’s the advantage? - William Butcherson, Salem, MA.
Ball bearings have been used in automobile wheel assemblies from very early days. This type of bearing is cheap to make and is used where weight is directly downward. Some people call this a Conrad bearing (Robert Conrad–Patent 1903). The downside is that the contact area of the balls is very small, making this type of bearing suitable for mostly light weight vehicles. Although some side loads (thrust) can be tolerated, ball bearings are best for light radial loads. In our Porsche application, where the weight is light and the wheels are narrow, ball bearings have usually been good over the years. 
In modern times, wheels are wider, tires are “stickier” and we drive faster. The tapered roller bearing offers both excellent radial plus better thrust features than the ball type.  Some guys call these Timken bearings (Henry Timken–Patent 1898). Take a look at the illustration below.  Obviously, each roller has more contact surface to the cup and cone. The taper angle of the roller resists the thrust better than a simple ball. Virtually all cars from the 60s on are fitted with some form of tapered rollers
Hope this helps. From Brad Ripley

I missed the illustration.

The description of the ball bearing sounds like a primarily radial bearing.
The ball type wheel bearing is designed for significant thrust load as well as radial. (Other ball bearings are designed for only/full thrust load, kingpin thrust bearings for example.)
My 05 VW car has ball type bearings at all 4 wheels. I believe (but not sure) that the "unit bearing" front hubs on most if not all modern pickups are also ball bearings.

Not sure the perspective above is actually comparing the bearings in question.

I've been putting in so many hours in the shop that I've gotten behind on the threads here. The 302 is almost ready to reassemble and then I will be able to post on how the truck drives with the new front discs and all the other mods. I did check out the Avions-I drove all the way from NW Arkansas to South Dakota to buy one and found it had a rotten floor despite the description so I decided to build my own in the future. Mine will be made of wood (a bit like a gypsy caravan-with an arched top and celestory) which I think goes with the truck better and will be significantly wider that the base of a slide in camper like the Avion. I promise you guys I'll post photos when the truck is on the road and I can provide some feedback on what works and what doesn't.