The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area The Electrical Bay 69 C10 Starter or Solenoid Problem?

Back off the timing a little bit, and see what happens.

Also try another know good battery, and see what happens. I seen batteries do lots of different things, even when tested to be good.

".......and I have great battery cables, heavy duty. But why great starting when cold, and a no-go when warm?" What increases resistance in an electrical circuit? Length of the conductor, wire cross-section (gage), type of material in the conductor (copper, aluminum), temperature. Heat soaking the engine could be causing the electrical resistance to increase in the starting circuit. Deja va: I had the same issue on my 327. You say you have "heavy duty" battery cables.....just what gage are they? Got myself some 2 gage cables, positive AND negative: problem solved. Have you qualified all your power AND ground circuits? Wire brushed all those connection points? I know it's already been mentioned earlier in this thread regarding cables but have you REALLY confirmed those cables/connections? Do yourself/us a favor and check...Deja vu all over again.

Several years ago, one of my students had a 455 Buick engine in an Electra with all the bells and whistles. It had already had 2 batteries, 2 starters, and an alternator changed, and had the same symptoms- - - -difficult hot starts. I used it as a class demonstration for checking voltage drops in the starting circuit by checking every connection from the battery to the starter and all along the ground circuit for voltage loss. When we got to the negative battery cable to engine block connection it was losing 2.5 volts across a loose, dirty connection. 5 minutes with a wire brush, plus a new bolt and lockwasher fixed it for good!
Jerry

Flatblu/Hotrod Jerry......OK, you have a VERY good point. I cleaned the battery cables and the posts, and also the positive connection to the new starter. However, I did not actually take off the battery ground on the engine block and clean. It "looked" good, but that can be deceiving. That will be the first thing I do today, ahead of the waterpump and alt. test. Very good point here.

Thanks again for the advice.

Conclusion:

I took off the negative wire at the block, and cleaned it with a wire brush and sandpaper.....there was some corrosion there. I also took the small bolts out of the battery terminal clamp, pulled out the stranded copper wires, and wire brushed and sanded all of that area....also a bit of corrosion going on.

Truck started right up. I drove her for 10 minutes and came back, turne the engine off.......then tried to start. Another no-go....just barely turning over.....errrr-----err---er.

The load test, the cranking test, and cell-to-cell volt tests showed that the battery was still fairly good. I even had the battery tested at the Auto store, and they said it just needed a charge. So, not sure why it had plenty of cranking power when cold, and almost none when warm.

I put a new battery in today, and gave her a test drive. Came back, turned the engine off, and tried to start.......

SUCCESS! I waited 1 min, 5 min, 10 min, and 30 minutes......started with a roar each time.

So, it was the battery. Maybe something inside went goofy whenever it got a brisk charge from the alternator, but it recovred when it cooled off? Also, the Volt Reg. had been charging a bit too high and boiling the battery over the years, and it was half a quart low in electrolyte when I checked it a few weeks ago. So maybe running low of electrolyte caused some damage internally?

Thanks for all the tips.

Like I said, I've seen batteries that tested good, that where bad. Glad to see you got it fixed. Now you will enjoy your truck even more. Probably wouldn't hurt to see what yout charging rate is now.

Dwight,

Am I reading this correctly, you have battery terminals with the cable clamped to the top? I would replace them with real battery cables with manufactured ends, less chance for corrosion and or loose connections. I only use that type terminal as an emergency fix on my lawn and garden equipment.

Glad you're back on the road!

Mike B

55 Shaker.....You were right.....even when they test good, they can be bad. I adjusted the Volt. Regulator points so it is charging less. Now it is only at 14.9 - 15.1 volts, not the 15.7 it was putting out. You think that is still too high?

Mike B.......Yep, I have that type of batter cable/connection. It has been working OK for 25 years.....so, time for an upgrade.

You're still just a skosh high on the charging voltage. I'd be a lot more comfortable seeing a top reading of 14.5 or a bit more. When a battery boils electrolyte out to the point of exposing plate material, it gets "sulfated" and usually exhibits symptoms similar to what you've been describing. Occasionally, sulfation can be broken down by totally discharging and slow recharging the battery repeatedly. I use an old headlight sealed beam to run a battery down completely, then charge it at a 10-15 amp rate for 2 or 3 days, and repeat the cycle several times. Some batteries recover, others don't. It's kind of a crapshoot! Glad you're on the way to a good fix.
Jerry

Jerry......thanks. Someone else told me that the charging voltage was still a bit high.....so I will take the V.Reg. off again and close up those points even more....try to get it at 14 v idle and 14.5 higher rpms. Im glad there was an adjusting screw on the coil.

I have nothing to lose.....i will experiment with the old battery, discharging and charging and see what happens.

Remember that ultimately, the condition of the battery determines the charging voltage, not the regulator adjustment. As the battery charges up, the voltage will go higher as it attempts to overcome the resistance of the battery until it reaches the maximum setting of the regulator points. A slightly discharged battery will give a false (low) reading. If the battery is less than fully charged, adjusting the points will not give you an accurate reading. Also, replacing the cover of the regulator will lower the voltage setting slightly because steel is a better conductor of magnetism than air. After making an adjustment, replace the cover and run the engine at a fast idle (1500 RPM or so) for 10-15 minutes, then recheck the voltage at the battery posts- - - -not the output terminal of the alternator!
Jerry

Jerry.......Yes, good point about the battery determining charging voltage, and the Reg. kinda taking orders.

Yep....I have been checking voltage at the battery posts. With the brand new battery installed at full charge, and after driving the truck for 10 minutes, the V.Reg was still putting out around 15 volts.......so, I would like to tweek that down as you said.

Update on the "Hot Starting Problem":

It is now May 2016, and the hot starting issue persists.

I have put a new battery in, a new starter, new solenoid, new plugs, wires, points, condensor, rotor. Cleaned all the battery cables and connections.

She fires right up when cold, and runs great. Take her for a 15 minute drive and turn off the engine, and she barely turns over and does not want to start.

Very frustrating.

Is it possible that an over-charged battery does not have much cranking ability? Do I now assume that I have a bad voltage regulator and spend even more money replacing it? Or is this just throwing more money at the problem?

Anyone ever have this problem before????????

There's a quick and dirty battery capacity check you can do without a load tester. Disable the ignition by taking the wire(s) off the coil + terminal so the plugs won't fire. Then crank the engine for 15 seconds and check the battery terminal voltage while the starter is still running. If necessary, have a helper do the cranking while you measure the voltage at the battery posts. After the 15-second starter run the terminal voltage should not drop below 9.5 volts. I'm going to guess the battery will run out of steam long before 15 seconds is up. If the cranking speed slows dramatically, stop cranking- - - -a very slow starter speed cuts down on the inductive reactance in the starter windings, and you can roast the starter from overcurrent if you let it grind slowly.

If it passes the cold cranking test, try the same procedure when the engine is hot. There shouldn't be a noticeable difference in performance.
Jerry

Hey Jerry, and thanks for the quick reply.

I did the same test on the old battery, and it tested fine. However, I went ahead and put a brand new battery in a couple months ago, and this one is also perfectly fine. She turns over with power to spare on the coldest of days, but after being driven for 10-15 minutes, something acts as if the battery were a sponge, and someone squeezed that spounge dry of all its water.....but in this case the spounge would be squeezed dry of all its amps.

What in the world is going on here?

Is it possible that its as simple as the battery getting over-charged and when its way up around 15.5 - 16 volts, it just plum does not function properly....and maybe the starter cannot handle that voltage level?

Pulling my hair out on this one......Guess I should spend the $50 for a factory-type voltage regulator?

Did you do Jerry's test today? If not don't buy anything until you do.

Test cold per Jerry's instructions, write the voltage number down. Drive it for 15 minutes and pull back into the garage and do the test again and post the numbers.

Also, whats the battery voltage at the battery with the engine running at a fast idle?

Mike B

Mike B.......I did those tests a few months ago before replacing all the parts. It was charging on the high side (around 15.5 volts) after driving 10 minutes. I tried tweeking the old voltage regulator by adjusting the points, and got it down a bit.

I did find an old-style replacement volt. reg. on ebay at a really good price, so I have that on order. If the new volt. reg. does not solve the problem, then I guess I will get out a few sticks of dynamite.

The regulator will not solve the problem.
Jerry

Jerry.....Your soothsaying is worrying me.....and I hope some Voodoo Queen isnt jabbing needles into a small model of my ole 69 Chevy, casting some bad spell on it.

I am running out of causes to this problem. Lets assume the voltage regulator doesnt solve the issue......you have any idea what the cause could be?

Test the battery- - - -properly. I have a sneaky suspicion the overvoltage situation you encountered some time ago has damaged the cells, and the battery only has enough capacity to make one or two cold starts. Disable the ignition and crank the engine for 15-20 seconds, then check the battery terminal voltage while the starter is still turning. The terminal voltage should not drop below 9.5 volts.

If the battery passes the cold cranking test (doubtful) do the same 15 second cranking test with a hot engine. I predict the voltage will fall flat within 5 seconds or so.

Then go buy a battery.
Jerry

Hey Jerry,

I put a brand new battery in a couple months ago, even though the older battery was still testing in the acceptable range.

Back then, I did the cranking tests that you mentioned, and the old battery did pass the test, staying above 9.5 volts for 20 seconds.

With a hot engine, it truly acts as if the battery is weak, but that is not the case. I recall a couple months ago, after I had installed the new starter/solenoid, and the older battery was testing good, I drove the truck to the county landfill, and turned off the engine. Unloaded trash, then the starter barely turned over when I tried to start.....someone gave me a jump with a running big SUV, and it still barely cranked over, but finally started.

The V. Reg. had been overcharging at around 15.5 volts, so I tried adjusting it down....but it was still putting out around 15 volts. In my mind, I just cannot think of anything else besides the 40 yr old V. Reg.

It is possible that the engine is tightening up to the point the starter can't crank it fast enough when it's hot, but that's a remote possibility. What is the battery terminal voltage during hot cranking? Without some measurements, we're all doing what we called a SWAG in the Air Force.

Scientific
Wild
Azz
Guess

Back when Sun made the best test equipment in the automotive business, every piece of their equipment had the same motto on it: "We test, not guess!" Sun went belly-up about 30 years ago and Snap-On bought what was left of the company, but those principles still apply. If the voltage is dropping way down with a hot engine, you might have internal engine problems that neither voltage regulators, batteries, starters, nor cables can fix.
Jerry

Well, I am back with an update.

Some time ago I had finally tuned the Voltage Regulator so she was no longer charging way up over 15 volts. I got it to where the battery was only reading around 12.8 volts after a 15 minute drive. Since I do not use lights, radio, or anything electric other than the rear brake lights, I felt that this charge rate was ample enough.

When cold, the truck started with a ton of cranking power, and fired right up and ran fantastic during my last 20 minute test run. When I got home, I let the engine idle while I checked the battery.....and it read around 12.8 volts. I then turned off the engine and tried to re-start. Like usual, the engine barely turned over, and then stopped, and did not want to crank and start up.

I am pretty dern perplexed at this point....what can the problem be? To sum up the prior posts, I have replaced the starter, solenoid, battery, battery cables, and cleaned electrical grounds and battery terminals. She has fresh points, plugs, plug wires, condensor, and distrib. cap.

I had a 2 cylinder lawn mower that acted the same way....when she got hot, she began to run poorly and get hot. When I shut her down, and tried to restart, the engine would not roll over. Turned out that the valves were out of adjustment on the mower....adjusted them and problem was solved. However with the 69 C-10, it has hydraulic lifters, so how in the world could the valves be out of adjustment?

Surely someone has the $64,000 answer to this problem I am having. Any guesses?

If everything is clean bare metal and tightened properly I would think from the symptoms you describe you have 1 of 2 possibilities. A bad battery or a bad starter. I can't think of any other explanation for "the engine barely turned over, and then stopped".

Hey Justhorsearound:

I would agree with you, but I already installed a brand new battery and a new starter, among all the other items.

What internal engine parts could be wearing which would cause almost impossible starts when the engine is warm?

I read all the way thru twice and was about to admonish you for not putting in NEW battery cables. 25 year old cables are too old. Cleaning the ends does not help internal, unseen corrosion, breaks in cable strands, etc. No such thing as "heavy duty" cables. There are large gauge cables and small gauge cables and the correct gauge cable.........then at the very end of all this you suddenly said "new battery cables". Just want to make sure you meant that because that was my no. 1 guess as to all this "trouble". As mentioned by an astute poster, heat breaks down conductivity. You also need to get rid of the regulator. They are not worth messing with in todays world. Can't imagine you went thru most of this with 25 year old cables. Also as a rule of thumb: mechanics don't say: "it's been working for 25 years so it must be OK".
It seems to me that after all this testing and load testing and regulator cleaning and cable clamp cleaning, you have always had enough battery voltage to start a motor. It seems to me that even when your truck was jump started it still slowly turned over with a supposed new starter and battery of your own, that it's obviously the cables. (if it's not a mechanical/seizing/valve train issue/flooding).
What I ALWAYS say is that it is ALWAYS the battery, but you say it's new and shows no breakdown with a non professional load tester. If you really did get BOTH new cables with factory ends and the ground is on shinny clean motor metal, then call me crazy.

your question..............What internal engine parts could be wearing which would cause almost impossible starts when the engine is warm?

would you have an idea?

my 350 eng acted the same way and I had ever thing but the kitchen sink thrown at me..wife said,, get another battery, I said I dont need another battery, my checks ok... get one anyway

bingo...no more problems ever

Bartamos......Yep, I even got new cables....but who knows, maybe the terminal end on the starter is not crimped properly and losing conductivity when it gets a bit warm. Also, the header pipes are pretty close to the starter solenoid and that portion of the battery cable. Could the heat from the header pipes cause the solenoid to not want to perform properly? But, why would this be a problem after 25 years.....and a new solenoid/starter was just put on.

I guess another thing to try would be to make a heat shield to go between the solenoid/starter and the hot header pipe.

Like you said at the end of your post, Im leaning to some kind of valve train problem. Is there anyway that the hydrualic lifters could be failing and not pushing the valves all the way open when warm? Any way to check this? Would a compression test show anything?

Joker......Well, I did as your wife advised, and already tried the new battery.

Many years ago in another life I sold auto parts for a large, now defunct, chain store. I cannot express how many times we sold new batteries only to have the customer back in a few days complaining about slow cranking or dead battery every morning. As with ALL merchandise there are factory defective parts shipped every day. I've seen brand new starters with broken brushes inside. So, I guess what I'm saying is just because you put a new Battery and Starter in doesn't mean you didn't get a bad one. It's a frustrating process but eventually you will get there.

I tried the heat shield to my starter, re wrapped exhaust pipes, etc.. not saying this is your problem but it sounded like mine,
how long does it have to cool down before it will crank..

I guess if one wanted to go to the extreme one might think timing or weak timing chain but that would be really extreme.


you might just have a clown truck.. good luck with it..

You can try:
1. lower the idle speed.
2. Tighten headers.
3. Exchange starter for a new one
4. Come home from test drive, have another battery ready, try starting.
5. Be sure fuel line not near headers.
6. If it starts cold, runs good, good power, can't see valves bad enough to do that. but maybe. You are not ready to go there yet.
7. Try retard timing 2-4 deg.
8. Do the Ford relay trick.
9. Lower the idle speed.
10. Drop back 5 yards and punt.

Are any of these parts you are buying remanufactured?
Where are you getting your parts?
Be aware of Martin's last post. That includes the coil.

YES

Why now? Not before? Don't know. Maybe some change in cooling/air flow/loose headers/motor running hotter/global warming/heat soak

that could be a problem and a suggestion was made by cuda 69 in page one but you stated the header pipes were pretty far away, etc.. did this problem just flare up all at once...

did it run ok from may 2014 to Jan 2016

Justhorsenround.......Yep.....very frustrating, but someday hopefully I will discover where the Gremlin is hiding out inside my 69 Chevy, and drive him out with a sledge hammer, flame-thrower, or something super extreme like that.

A "New" bad starter? But why would it crank super and with authority when the truck is cold, but go AWOL when warm?

Joker.....The engine has to cool down about an hour before it wants to crank like it should.

Did the heat shielding on your starter help any?

Timing.....I also checked the timing last month, and it was spot-on. Wondering how a "weak timing chain" could pose these symptons. Man, she starts like a champ when cold and runs super sweet and with good power until I turn the engine off. This would be a great truck for someone living in Mexico.....just take a good 1 hr siesta everytime you stop the truck....wake up, and all is good.

Bartamos........

1. Lower the idle speed. Well, I have her purring at around 6-700 rpm, and dont want to go any lower.

2. Tighten headers. Good point. I have not checked the header bolts in 25 years. But she runs quiet up under the hood....no sign of any exhaust leak around the headers.

3. Starter.....Well, I just put the new one on, along with the solenoid. It is acting exactly like the old starter was acting.

4. Try another battery when the truck is hot. I essentially tried the same thing....used jumper cables from another large V8 vehicle, and it still did not want to turn over....but finally slowly cranked and then fired up.

5. Fuel lines....Nope, not near the header pipes.

6. Retard timing 2-4 degree. I guess you mean to retard it 2-4 more degrees from the factory specs? I could try that. What is this doing? I guess the spark would be closer to Top Dead Center, and make it easier to fire, as the compression may be less?

7. Ford relay trick? Not sure what that is....using a Ford hand crank instead of the stupid starter?

8. Lower idle.....you want me to make that poor ole 307 suffer by struggling to stay alive at 300 rpm?

9. Punt......hey, thats the best strategy yet......Tom Dempsey on the way over.

Yep.....remanufactured starter.....Advance Auto.
Coil.....I will have to read that one next.

Joker......Well, I guess I need to go measure the distance from the closest header pipe to the solenoid, and give an exact distance since "close" is very vague.

However, the headers have been on for 25 years, and never created any problems at all with the starting system. Yep, this problem flared up about a year ago with no warning.

Another test that I need to do is to park her on a hillside when hot, and turn off the key. If she does not want to crank with the starter, I can try roll-starting. If she fires right up with a slow rolling start, then I would think its not the engine internals, but its gotta be the starter/starting system. Valid assumption?

"close" is about the usual distance between the exhaust and the starter on any GM V8 .... that's why most every parts store carries exhaust shielding wrap ... it's excess heat on the starter/solenoid, a common problem, get some heat shielding and the problem will likely go away, regardless of what's worked for the last 25 years .... alternative is the physically smaller high torque starter and/or the remote start solenoid Bart suggests as the 'Ford starter trick', high heat plays hell with electrical connections such as are in the solenoid

Bill