The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area Engine Shop High volume oil pump for 216/235?

Jerry,

Did you just now make up that mistletoe invitation, or is it a time-honored TN invitation. Either way, it is a good one.

Actually, I saw something similar posted in the wheelhouse of an offshore fishing boat down in Destin Florida about 40 years ago, concerning the way the Captain operated his boat. I just adapted it to the current situation! It has come in handy many times since then!
LOL!
Jerry

oil pressure is linear

Sorry, this means what?

Mr Panic,
Linear just means when you double RPM then the oil pump will flow twice the volume. Engines are designed to have the max oil available during the most torque range. Above those 600-1800 RPM, then the oil is just dumped to pan. Baffles me to think nowadays 40# idling means anything like security to people. That would scare me.People have NO understanding of these oiling systems, won't admit it, and purport their ideas as groundbreaking. It's elementary foolishness. I'll leave you to this. Was just trying to help.

All answers are correct.

I suppose that the 60# full-scale pressure gauge on the GMC's was totally unnecessary, right? What about the 855 cubic inch Cummins Diesels that run 70 PSI at cruise RPM? That must be downright terrifying.
Jerry

One thing I learned from the HAMB link is that a file folder makes a good gasket in a pinch !

The Offenhauser race engine ran something like 125 psi. And no one can say they weren't successful.

Jerry didn't say that higher pressure isn't successful... just really scary.

What's scary is when some doofus shims the relief valve spring down tight. One of my competitors on the dirt track in California called me up one day to help him get his freshly-assembled 350 stroker engine running. It would run about 10 seconds, shudder, and stall, repeatedly. I was tinkering with the carburetor, standing right behind the left front wheel on the open-wheel car. He was in the driver's seat. After several tries, he got frustrated and kicked the throttle wide open as soon as the engine started. The engine loaded up, shook a little, and split the side of the oil filter from top to bottom. I got a bath in slightly warm 50 weight Valvoline!

It turns out he had installed a big block oil pump, and then added several flat washers behind the relief valve spring. The engine was pegging a 100# pressure gauge at idle, and the stalling on startup was caused by a solid hydraulic lock in the oil passages because the relief valve couldn't move. With 500+ horsepower driving the pump at wide open throttle, the pressure was at least several hundred pounds, and the filter let go before the pump drive shaft or the distributor gear had a chance to fail!

Now, that's too much oil pressure, for sure!
Jerry

Jerry, any update on this project?

Temporarily on hold- - - -we just stripped out carpet, wall paneling and insulation in half the house- - - -about $20K worth of flood damage! Also no heat in the machine shop!
Jerry

I saw a ford 300 6 cylinder ,that the relief valve failed,The oil filter did nearly the same thing,swelled up and and leaned over enough to break the seal and all the oil went on the ground.

Flood? What happened?

Heavy rain and backed-up storm drain water, possibly because the county just changed a drain culvert down the road from our house and installed a somewhat smaller one than has been there for the past 30 years. We've had close calls before, but this time the runoff water got into half the house!
Jerry

WOW! man there is some real oil pressure talk going on here. I don't know much about how and why all I know is my 1949 chevy truck with a 1955 235 cid engine had about 15# of oil pressure on start up and after it warms up it will fall to one needle width past '0' that zero, goose egg, nada, nix, nothing. I will try certain thing that I've gotten from 'Stovebolt' who knows. I would like to see some pressure when warm and at idle. No knocks bangs rattles or anything like that so MAYBE I have enough pressure. Who knows. Thanks for sharing many years of knowledge with me. It's a good thing.

Hotrod I'm very sorry to here about your house. I hope all goes well with the repair. As you know down here in Mississippi we get lots of flooding, but thank the Lord I live way up in the hills. I really believe the earth would have to flood to get us. Take care my friend and good luck. Steven

Maybe someone installed a 'bigger culvert' than was in it before somewhere in your system?

Hi Jerry
I've just joined this site after reading your posts, I live in Christchurch, New Zealand, I have a couple of Chev projects that have been lingering around far too long, but I'm hoping to give one of them some attention this year, for years I've been collection period speed gear for 216-235 engines along with cool accessories for 38 vintage Chevrolets. I've got hold of recently a splash fed 235 Cubic Inch engine with cast iron power glide which for this country was an extremely rare option to be offered in new cars of that era, I plan to run it through torque tube rear end, I've picked up a NOS 51 column shift so intend to hang it all off column. I see you have had some success with improved oil flow for these engines and as I intend to pull the engine down for repair I'm interested in your modified pump, would you be interested in building one for me and as you mentioned charge me a fortune. Look forward to hearing back from you, all the best Darryl

G'Day, Darrel!

The oil pump upgrade is one of several projects I'm hoping to get back into motion soon. I have the spacer fabricated to extend the depth of the housing sufficiently to accommodate the longer V8 gears. Now it's just a matter of fabricating alignment dowels to keep the spacer, the main housing, and the cover plate running true to each other. The longer pump gears should deliver about 20% more volume if everything works out as planned. That just might breathe a little more life into some of these old engines with extra clearance around the cam bearings, main bearings, etc. As an added advantage, the spray nozzles might squirt a little more oil into the rod dippers as they spin into position at cruise speed.

I have a friend who lives in Auckland. He's a deck hand on an offshore sport fishing boat, and a retired police officer. He also grows orchids and sells them on the international market. He has invited me to visit sometime soon, and assemble a spare engine for a 1925 Dodge truck his family once used for delivering wines they produced. The truck is in excellent unrestored condition, and is used in parades and other special events. That should be quite an adventure if I can work out all the details!
Jerry

Jerry, You should go ahead and do it soon Where you can have a time of your Life. Mike

Did you ever get that high volume oil pump working? Would an external oil pump work?

Actually, I came up with a better idea. The 230/250/292 complete oil pump can be adapted to a stovebolt engine without doing any kind of modifications to the pump. It does require a custom machined bracket to fit the pump mounting fixture on the stovebolt block, and a custom length intermediate drive shaft between the pump and the distributor that can be fabricated from a big block V8 shaft. I cut the shaft to the correct length and mill the slot into it for the distributor shaft to engage. It looks like the volume output is going to be about twice what a 216 pump can deliver and somewhat more than one for a 235 or a 261. The "Frankenstein 216" I'm building with a full pressure 235 crankshaft and MOPAR hydraulic roller lifters will have one of those pumps, along with a lot of internal plumbing modifications to pressurize the lifters.
Jerry

Newbie to the forums here. Came onboard trying to see if I have a problem, or if I am obsessing over a non-problem. Little background: I have a '50 model 3100 with the 216 that I had rebuilt several years back. At the time it was rebuilt, I had the rods changed out to insert rods to get away from the babbit rods. I assumed (there's that word again!) that doing that would require a higher pressure oil pump. I also installed a new 0-60 pressure gauge in the original cluster, thinking the rebuilder had installed said higher pressure pump. As life has a way of doing, it got in the way of continuing to get the truck up and running, as my late wife went into decline and passed away. Recently, at the urging of the lady to whom I am now married, the project got restarted. We got the engine all set up, cranked it up, and found that on the 0-60 gauge, there is little movement when the engine is running. I have checked & there is oiling taking place at the rockers (basically just weeping), and I have checked the pressure line to the gauge and found it to be open. I pulled the line from the block, cranked the engine over and found the pump to be pumping. My main concern is this: will the low pressure pump from the babbit rod days provide enough pressure/flow to provide sufficient oiling to the inserts to prevent galling them? I've checked with two reputable engine rebuild shops in the local area, both of which tell me that a higher pressure pump for the 216 is not available, and that in their opinion, the low pressure pump should be sufficient. What say those who are wiser in the ways of the Stovebolt

First, get a Good Gauge, temporarily plumb it in and see what the oil pressure really is. Doesn't have to be a 0 to 30 lb. gauge like the original, but it does need to be a gauge that can be calibrated and adjusted to a test gauge or dead weight tester or an electronic version (much more readily available today) to insure it's accuracy. You'll likely find pressure is fine.

If you've read this entire thread (and I suspect you have) the first post has the answer you're looking for. Lots of good info above. If you haven't had time to read all the way through, enjoy. Pay particular attention to Hotrod Lincoln when it comes to our old trucks.

Good Luck,

RonR

added in edit: just noticed this is your first post. You should consider making your post a thread of it's own. And then do a hello thread in the Welcome Center.

And WELCOME ABOARD!!

Your mistake was installing the 0-60 lb. GMC pressure gauge. There is no such thing as a "high volume" or "high pressure" oil pump for a 216. Pressure to lubricate the rods on a spray-oiler engine is created by the speed of the crankshaft dippers spinning against the streams of oil squirting across the crankcase from the spray nozzles. A "good" oil pressure reading for a 216 or a spray oiler 235 would be somewhere in the 10-20 PSI range, and that will be at highway cruise speed. Idle oil pressure on a hot engine will barely be off the zero mark on the gauge. At idle the dippers on the rods swing down into the troughs below each rod, so as long as there's at least a trickle of oil coming from the spray nozzles to keep the troughs filled you're good to go. The main and cam bearings and a small volume of oil to the rocker arms is the only part of the system the pressure gauge is involved with. If the rockers are getting oil, it means the pressure in the lower end is supposed to be at least 15 PSI. The system is designed to cut off oil flow to the rockers any time the main and cam bearings are in danger of losing lubrication due to low oil pressure.

Adapting the 250 pump to the 216 will probably end up with hot idle oil pressure somewhere in the 20-30 PSI range. Max pressure at cruise speed will be determined by the pressure relief spring in the pump. As of yet, I haven't gotten an engine with the different pump in running condition, since that is only one of many modifications I'm doing to a "216" that will end up having a displacement anywhere from 235 to 258 cubic inches, depending on the stroke of the crankshaft I'll be using. It will use a modified 235 crankshaft with full pressure rod oiling and hydraulic roller valve lifters, among other modifications.
Jerry

Thanks to you, Hotrod Lincoln and moparguy. Your info has eased my mind--I can see that I was obsessing over a non-problem which I had created by assuming that I needed a high pressure pump and a corresponding 0-60 gauge. I will be plumbing in a dial gauge to check the pressure (which i now suspect will be O.K., since a new pump was installed in the rebuild), and then I will replace that 0-60 with a 0-30. Lesson well learned--check with people who have walked the path before embarking on the journey. Muchas gracias, amigos.

Good luck, and keep in touch. Stovebolters are definitely a cut above the average kind of folks you find in an internet chat room!
Jerry