The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area Engine Shop 1959 235 Oil Pan Aggravation

I just rebuked someone else for stupidity (and it was a Duesy), so to be fair...

I was changing the oil for the first time in my new 235 rebuild and oil was not draining out of the drain properly. I had other things to do, so let it drain until the next day. I look under there and see...

A WHITE CAP FROM A PERMATEX TUBE TRYING TO GET OUT!!!

It's almost funny! But it's all good because there is more bad. I was having some really unacceptable leaks that need addressed anyway. It's leaking pretty bad from the front of the oil pan (the rubber gasket part is not seating), and the rear having the same problem. Very annoying not being able to seat this oil pan correctly. Gasket set on order from RockAuto. Any opinions on a good way to seal this thing better? I have seen shows where the guys use Permatex like its going out of style.

They put a bead on the pan the height of how it comes out of the tube.. very high, very very liberal. What is the correct way to apply Permatex?

I'd buy a new oil pan for that situation.

As for the cap wandering around, I'd take the engine to whoever put it together & have them disassemble/assemble it again. If I had done it, I'd diss/assemble it again. Too much at risk for me to even wonder what else is in there.

There should not be a "bead" with Permatex- more like a finger swipe. (Edit- location dependent)

Brad

Yeah, that %&*#$&hole that did the rebuild.. I tellya, someone should take him out and shoot him! LOL!

I can attest to the fact that it's the only thing I left in there, but I do the finger swipe method. I also make sure the metal on the oil pan has been fixed around the screws which get damaged from people tightening too much. But, this oil pan was in pretty bad shape. The curled area where the seals seat was all bent up. Which is where I think the problem is. When I get it apart this weekend, I will look more carefully to see if the pan is salvageable. I try to salvage every vintage part I can these days. I will consider replacing it, but if there is any way I can fix it, I have to try. Thanks Brad!

Deve, I didn't/wasn't really following that you left it in there, but I remember now reading about your rebuild. So what; take it as a learning point & be glad you changed the oil & saw it.

Oil pan situation: I understand salvaging parts & I love to do the same myself. BUT... you need for the oil pan to do its hermetical seal magic.

And while typing this- a lot is coming back to me - you definitely have the shop & could come up with the means to straighten the oil pan. I do not recall seeing/using a rubber oil pan gasket, though.

Brad

Edit- either way I give you props for owning up to it It makes me think about being cautious around the engine, et cetera (just like the lost aerosol "nozzle" thread did this week)

Here is my thinking.. and some people do not agree...

Explain in detail your successes, and.. explain in detail your failures. Otherwise it's not an educational experience. Everyone knows and usually hides their mistakes and touts their successes, but we have ZERO chance of becoming better restorers and mechanics if we do not share our failures. This is why I am not popular with certain people here who go out of their way to attempt to bamboozle everyone into thinking their advice is GOLD. It is NOT.

The 1959 Oil Pan is a 4 part system. The sides are cork and the front and rear are rubber. The rubber ones go into a track that supports them. It's kind of a hoky setup, but it is what it is. I will look at the pan very carefully tomorrow and see if it's salvageable using a Crap-TON of sealer or less. It's a test engine, so it's not going in a Truck anytime soon. I use it almost every day to test HEI's before I send them out, or testing other things I am working on. It's not a problem to just wipe the floor, but not too professional. Thanks again!

I think the rubber seals are much nicer than the cork seals on the ends. You should be able to put some black RTV or whatever you use on the top of the seal and especially at the bottom corners. I also put the stuff all along the length of the cork gasket between the cork and the pan. I think that makes up for any little kinks in the pan. That works for me.

Most of the tin on these engines require some tinsmithing to make them seal like new. The oil pan is the most difficult one to massage into the correct shape.
If you can, put it on the engine stand upside down and place it on the block and inspect the fit without the gaskets. Body hammer and dolly until it fits. They like to bow out on the sides, and who knows what else due to someone jacking up the engine by the oil pan or running over a stump.
Carl

My first pan gasket install was after the engine was rebuilt. I just did a basic install. A finger swipe of black rtv on one side of the cork gaskets to hold them to the pan waited 10 min then placed them on the pan and then a finger swipe to the exposed gasket top. The front and rear rubber seals were done the same way. Held up for about 5000 miles then started to get a rear leak that i thought was the actual rear crank seal. Found out it was the rear pan seal when i took the pan off last summer to remove the timing cover and do a cam install.

My new installation does not leak and i feel its because of the new last step i added this time around. After the pan was reinstalled with all new gaskets i let it sit for about 30 min then gave the bolts another snug then placed a liberal bead of rtv all around the pan perimeter in that nice huge valley between the pan rolled edge and the sharp block bottom face. then used my finder to work it nice and smooth into the crevice and wiped away the rest. Also did this all around the front and rear pan seals. One drop of oil has not yet hit the driveway.

Here is a high res picture of what i did.

OIl Pan Fix

Thanks guys. I will take my time with this one and try to keep track of the cap! I think part of what happened was I was a little upset at the time because the machine shop gave me the wrong cam (wouldn't run above 5 inches of vac) and when do you find that out? On initial runup. So I had to take it all apart again, and I probably got in a hurry. The engine runs perfect now so at least that one is off the list. Thanks again!

Took the Oil Pan off yesterday. I am doing this upside down as the engine would sit in a truck. It has been a loooong time since I changed out an oil pan ON the truck. With rods in my back, it's hard to get down there, but it's all clean under there now with all of the old sealer removed. Nothing else in the pan. No pipe wrenches, crowbars, etc.

The pan needed LOTS of massaging. Each hole was stretched and the end bolt holes (the 4 corner 5/16" bolts) were bent up too. I probably did all of this damage trying to stop the leaking. So like Carl said, lots of tinsmithing later, it's all done and ready for the Rock Auto order to come in.

In looking at this problem of the holes bending upwards, I think it's a good idea to use flat washers on all of the bolts. The extra wide surface may keep that from happening as quickly. The washers do not interfere with any of the features of the pan, so it seems like the thing to do. Of course, no Gorilla'ing the bolts during assembly.

I use very minimal silicone sealer on rubber impregnated cork gaskets. Too much silicone prevents the cork from soaking up a little oil to swell them and help seal them. I use just enough to hold them in place. Over tightening of the fasteners will distort oil pans, valve covers, side covers. Moderate torque on the fasteners with some blue loctite on the threads is my method

What about using some sort of torque spreader you see used on valve covers?

I use those spreaders on the valve cover. They are a very good idea. The oil pan has 22 bolts, so I think adding a flat washer will help with that. Most engine bolt kits for the Oil Pan come with a star type lock washer and the bolt. So, I'll try adding a flat and see what happens. I decided to purchase two gaskets so I can compare the quality. One is the FelPro ($4), the other Victor Reinz ($10). I will comment on the difference when they come in.

Deve, you asked about sealers. Have you ever used Right-Stuff sealer? You can use it on very damaged sheet metal, like your pan and still get a good seal. Be warned, you will probably bend the pan getting back off if needed. This stuff will seal anything, with or without gaskets. I like for jobs I don't expect to see again.

One thing about silicone sealers, they will not stick to oily surfaces, even very little oil. Use a brake cleaner spray or lacquer thinner to really dry out both surfaces. Plus, do not let the silicone dry or start to harden up before tightening the bolts. If you want the gasket to stay in place, seal one side and bolt the pan down to flatten the sealer and gasket, once it drys, pull the pan and do the other side. You can get high spots in the drying sealer if you wait to long to assemble.

That's really good advice. I was wondering how I am going to do this upside down without glomming on the sealer and hoping for the best. I will clean thoroughly with lacquer thinner, then put the gaskets on the engine first, put the pan on and let the engine side sealer dry before I remove the pan again and put the pan side sealer on. Of course being careful not to tighten things too tight.

I spent this morning installing the oil pan gaskets on the 59 235. I got both gasket sets in from RockAuto. One was the FelPro set, the other Victor Reinz. Just so you all know, they are exactly the same. Both are cork sides with rubber ends. Both rubber end sets were identical and so were the cork sides. No need to go with the $10 set when the $4 set is the same. Even the pliability is the same. Thickness, material used, everything is exactly the same.

I cleaned the gasket surfaces with lacquer thinner really well, then rubbed a coating of gasket sealer on the engine side, installed the gaskets, then to make sure I didn't have problems getting the pan back off tomorrow, I wiped the residue off the gaskets on the pan side, then tightened down every bolt only hand tight. I used a 6 inch socket extension and turned until I couldn't turn anymore without the handle. I felt this would be all the pressure necessary to remove air pockets and get a good seal.

Tomorrow I will remove the pan and seal the pan side really well. Upside down is alot harder to do this than when the engine is turned right side up. But it IS doable on a 1954 pickup frame without too much trouble. I think this slower and more careful method will result in a better seal. Time will tell.

Went without a hitch. Tomorrow I will refill the engine with new oil and hopefully that is the end of the story. Only time will tell.