The Stovebolt Site Forums The Parking Lot Big Bolts 59 spartan 80 advice

Thanks to a lot of help here I am ready to start driving and using my 59 2 ton. I do have a couple of questions. My truck has dayton style wheels with drum brakes that took me most of last summer to sort out. I have them working but I am not sure how long they will stay given the master cylinder is obsolete and I just honed it and installed a kit. My goal is to upgrade to a 2 stage master, a modern style setup. Most of those type of conversions are are for smaller trucks. I have seen some of the guys here have done this but I need to know what parts I need to do this on my truck.

One other question is about the drum brakes. Should I be concerned with them or should I upgrade to disks. And are disk brakes even possible with dayton style spoke wheels. I am not concerned about originality as much as safety and reliability when it comes to the running gear. Can anyone shed any light on this for me? Any help is appreciated.
Gene

Gene,

How do you plan on using your truck?

Your 2-1/2 ton truck should be fine with good working brakes with all new lines and hoses. I've put 30K miles on my '57 Fire Engine that weighs 14K pounds with all stock brakes. If you really want the dual pot system look at the systems used on International school buses from the 70's or 80's. The tricky part will be installing a booster as you currently have one Hydrovac. Maybe one of the fire wall mounted booster/MC's could be mounted under the floor like the original with a long pushrod from the stock pedal (move it way back on the frame so the angle is not as steep).

I can't help with the disc brake idea...

Mike B

Ditto on what Mike B. said. You need to keep your drum brakes adjusted up, and everything in good working order and they should be fine. DO NOT neglect keeping them adjusted, or you can run into issues. Disc brakes are nice but, not entirely necessary, especially if you are not hot-rodding around (which most of us in the big-bolts don't!

Hy Gene_Spartan80, I also agree with Mike B and 69Cuda, if the stock braking system is in good condition and kept maintained in that condition you should have many miles of trouble free use of your braking system. If you must go up to a dual system I'm sure you could come up with a system that could be installed under the floor using either a vacuum booster in front of the master cylinder or a Hydroboost system. The one point which must be adhered to is not to go smaller on the master cylinder bore than the factory specification. A new dual braking system will take a while to design and install, I hope that helps.

To answer a couple of your questions, this truck was a firetruck and I removed the pumper body. My goal is to have a platform bed on it. I have a woodworking business and the truck will be used to transport lumber ands supplies. My guess is that this truck will never see even half the weight its rated for. The tires need to be replaced and I am going to move to tubeless, centerless rims. If everyone would have said to get rid of the old brake system, I would have started looking for and older kodiak or C70 type truck to harvest the axles and wheels. I have been quoted $400 each to replace each wheel and tire and that was for retreads. I figured I could find a tired old kodiak or topkick with modern wheels and tires and it may even have the bed I need also for only a little more money than I will be paying for the new tires and wheels.

Anyway. It looks like there is no reason to worry about the old brake system as long as I keep them serviced. Thanks for the advice. I am ready to move on to others areas of this truck that are more satisfying than brakes and tires,

Gene,

Do you currently have Dayton Spoke type wheels on your truck? If so all you need to do is source Dayton 22.5" rims from your local big truck junk yard. The center part of the rim is the same as the Dayton 20" wheels so they will interchange right onto your truck.

Check with your local school bus repair garage for used tires, they don't run worn tires and you may find some good used ones cheap.

Mike B

Mike, I have visited a couple of big truck tire places thinking they would have 6 of what I need laying around. So far I have found nothing. New accuride centerless rims are all they are willing to talk about. I will check to see who does the tire work for our local school bus fleet and maybe find the tires. I do wish there was an easy way to convert my axle hubs to unimount style hubs. I don't mind the Daytons, however the wheels have been impossible to find used.

Gene,

What's a unimount style hub?

What size tires are you looking for or what's on the truck now?

Your local big truck junk yards should have 22.5" Dayton rims.

You need to go to the school bus repair shop and talk directly to them, they may have a wheel and tire pile...they more than likely do there own tire work.

Mike B

Mike, I get a little confused between budd wheels, hub pilot and stud pilot. I thought I read somewhere that the unimount are the same as hub pilot. I don't know, that may be a brand name. There is a whole new vocabulary when talking about big truck tires and I don't have any background in that area

Right now the truck has split rims with 9.00 x 20 tube tires. I was told by one of the big truck tire shops that I would need 22.5 x 7.25 wheels. 22.5 x 8.25 seems to be more available but they seemed to think that would not work with my spacer or the offset would not work. My biggest problem is my ignorance.

Gene, hub pilot wheels center on the hub (think a shoulder on the brake drum that fits through the center hole on the wheel, like the rear brake drum fits over the axle). The part of the lug nut that sits against the wheel is flat, not angled like a regular lug nut.

"budd type" or "stud pilot" wheels have a larger hole that fits over the stud. That hole is beveled and so is the lug nut. The lug nut tightens into the wheel and centers it (like the old steel car wheels)

So Gene, just so we are all on the same page what type wheels do you have (cast spoke or disc w/lugs)? If your truck is stock it could have 6-lug Budd wheels (stud piloted) or 5-Spoke Cast Hubs with Dayton Wheels (open center).

Your 9.00 x 20's would be replaced with 10.00 x 22.5" tires, they are the same diameter and width. The correct wheel width for 10.00 x 22.5" tires are the 6.75" or 7.5".

You also want radials, they run much smoother than the Bias tires.

Hope this helps,

Mike B

I have the 5 spoke cast hubs with dayton wheels. From my searches around home, the most common wheel width is 8.5 (it may be 8.25, can't remember exactly). Are the narrower 7.5" wheels an odd size? I can get them new but...I don't want to spend that $ until I have exhausted all the possibilities to find them used.

That's really why I wondered if there was a way to switch the hubs to accept the budd wheels that are more plentiful. But switching hubs will probably open other cans of worms when it comes to the brakes and drums.

Gene,

Call this eBay guy...this auction shows a picture of 22.5 x 7.50 rims...maybe he will deal on a set of 6???

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Accuride-Rim-Wheel-Dayton-Rim-Wheels-22-5-X-8-25-/220986547935?hash=item3373d31edf:m:mn0csqt6f5Rq4xe7mMF-_cw&vxp=mtr

Mike B

I will check with him, thanks.

8.25 wide is the industry standard for 11R22.5 or 295/75R22.5 tires. 7.5 wheels don't have the weight carrying capacity for these tires. The 7.5 wheels were the standard of the industry before radials and most of them have been scrapped. They are ok for 10R22.5 tires, but that is a kind of a rarity. 50 years ago, swapping Dayton's for Budds would have been a simple thing and the swap was common and from Budd to Dayton even more common. But finding another truck with the same axles today is difficult. Why not put 8.25 wheels with 295/75R22.5 tires on it. I sell used 22.5 tires for almost nothing to keep from paying disposal fee and there are lots of other carriers that do the same thing.

8.25 wide is the industry standard for 11R22.5 or 295/75R22.5 tires. 7.5 wheels don't have the weight carrying capacity for these tires. The 7.5 wheels were the standard of the industry before radials and most of them have been scrapped. They are ok for 10R22.5 tires, but that is a kind of a rarity. 50 years ago, swapping Dayton's for Budds would have been a simple thing and the swap was common and from Budd to Dayton even more common. But finding another truck with the same axles today is difficult. Why not put 8.25 wheels with 295/75R22.5 tires on it. I sell used 22.5 tires for almost nothing to keep from paying disposal fee and there are lots of other carriers that do the same thing.

That is good information. I am not against putting on 8.25 wheels. Will I need to change my spacer or are the offsets the same as a 7.5 wheel. What about the stud lengths. Just want to make sure to be prepared if it is not a simple bolt-on swap.

The studs and spacer don't care how wide the wheel is. Just make sure that the spacers and the cleats are matched for each other. The cleats need about 1/4" to 1/2" space from the hub. Otherwise the you lose your clamping force and the wheels will slip. I ran nothing but spokes on drive axles and trailers for 35 years. I switched to hub piloted to get the outboard mounted drums. I had a lot less trouble with them than the guys had with stud piloted Budds. Spokes are still used in severe conditions such as garbage trucks and mixer trucks.

Ken,

Will a 10.00 x 22.5 tire go on a 8.25 rim or will Gene have to run 11.00 x 22.5 tires on that size rim? I always thought 7.5" wide was the max for a 10.00 x 22.5, am I wrong?

Mike B

He can run 10R22.5 on either 7.50 or 8.25 wheel. Another option would be a 295/275R22.5 which is about the same size as the 10R22.5 but much more plentiful.

Here is a chart Bridgestone puts out.

http://www.trucktires.com/bridgestone/us_eng/load/misc_pdf/minDualSpacing.pdf

If you read the note, the weight rating of the wheel is what is important. In order to gross 80,000 we have to gross 12k or more on the steering axle which means we have to run a tire and wheel rated at over 6k.

Ken,

Thanks for that link...I'm saving that one, lots of good info.

Mike B