The Stovebolt Site Forums The Parking Lot Tons 'o Fun 14 bolt axle swap Considerations, Brainstorming, and Solutions

Ok,

Not sure if it was here, but I think it was. Somebody made a comment about finding that a bottom u-bolt saddle from a Ford f250 or 350 would fit on a 14 bolt axle tube. This was mentioned while discussing options for putting a 14 bolt under an AD 1 ton with 2" springs. Anybody know who said it or what post it was? Can't remember what truck they said it was from exactly.

Thanks,
Larry W.

It was me, might have been in passing in a PM...
Here is the PICTURE

I'm not 100% certain of the application but they came to me on a 61 F350 ford (with Dana axle) and I'm guessing they were original. They fit a 2" wide leaf spring and pretty nearly fit the axle tube on a 14 bolt as shown. A minute or three with a file would have them fitting perfectly.

Grigg

LOL,

I thought maybe it was you, but I couldn't find it. I searched for 2 hours on 3 forums. When I first saw it, I didn't save the info. Not normal for me. I usually do. Thanks.

Slung my C&C 14 bolt under the 53 3800 DRW flatty yesterday with the stock u bolts and some temporary flat bar in place of the saddles. Man is it tight. LOL. Maybe 3/8" between the backing plates and the overload pack on top. I might have to put the axle on the ground and bleed the brakes before hanging it on the truck. Overload pack covers the bleeder. Now if I go to disc on the truck all around, Ill be fine as long as the caliper clears the springs, or as long as I can clock the caliper to where it clears. Bleeding would be the only issue with clocking I guess, but they could be pulled and bled with a block between the pads.

I did all of this to make sure it was possible and to make sure the 19.5's will work. I was afraid of spring clearance, but I mounted the inners, and then dual'ed it up to admire it. LOL. No issue there. Even found a set of lug nut adapter rings (stiffeners) on ebay yesterday for less that 40, shipped. Still need to augment my lug nut collection.

Just to be clear, the mounting order is: inner dual against drum, outer dual against inner, then clamp rings and lug nuts right? No other components involved? I just bought used wheels and no hardware with them.

Larry W.

Grigg,

Didn't notice a brand or numbers on those did ya?

Larry W.

You got the assembly order right.
In your hunt for lug nuts let me know if you find US made ones. I ordered some Dorman brand from NAPA and they're Taiwanese, and no other options available from NAPA. I'll return them if I find better ones.

I'll look for numbers on those axle saddles.

I have some single wheel 13x3.5" drums, need to check if they fit in the 19.5 dual wheels, I think they might. By swapping them and spacing the backing plate out you'd gain about 1.25" room at the springs. I was going to do this for single wheels any how but might also work with duals.

Grigg

Grigg,

I'll update you on lug nuts if found. Are you using the big 1" inch ones like me?

Thanks for checking for numbers.

Interested in the outcome on the drums. My backing plates are considerably offset.

So you have the P30 19.5's but want singles huh? Are you going with the 19.5 singles like the hard to find originals and on the front and back?

Larry W.

Some pics of my clearances and test fit:
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/7a7q8pcfwdjrtsq/AADi3BicT8DXzENJKNk5FF-fa?dl=0

"So you have the P30 19.5's but want singles huh?"

"Before long I'd like to put the pickup bed on the GMC."

Now I understand...

Larry W.

Part number on the ford axle saddles is c1tt5796z. A quick search shows it listed as obsolete at some point.
http://www.fordpartswiki.com/getpage?pageid=158504

Grigg,

Thanks for the numbers. It's a place to start.

I am even considering making some, cut from .250 or .188 wall thickness box or rectangle. This allows cutting the exact size hole for the axle and then using the desired section height when halving the box material. I wish the material came in 5" width though.

4" box minus 1/4" wall each side leaves 3-1/2" in theory....
U-bolt is 2" ID plus two 5/8" shafts = 3-1/4" so it fits inside.

Now that doesn't leave much at the edges, but the clamp force WILL be directly over the 1/4" thick vertical wall. The u-bolt nut contact area could easily be built up with some plate laminated to the outside edges and the ends could be boxed off for strength.

For now, I will hunt for more elusive parts like yours. LOL

Larry W.

I bet they're common on a lot of 3/4 and 1 ton Fords back in the 60's and likely earlier and later.
The reason they seem a better fit is the 14 bolt axle tubes are not the common 3", 3.5" or even 4" like a lot of other axles are (I forget exact diameter, need to measure again). Though close in size the original GM saddles wrap around a fair amount of the circumference and won't fit the 14 bolt tube
The Ford version on the other hand does not contact much of the axle tube and while still not the exact same diameter as the 14 bolt tube it can easily be adjusted to fit.
Both the original AD GM and the 60's ford saddles shown in the background of this PICTURE

By the time the 14 bolt came out they used leaf springs wider than 2", so saddles for the axle won't fit our old springs.

Grigg,

Just like AD trucks have model "groups" like 47-53, the Fords had 61-65 or 66, so that will be the initial target.

Larry W.

OK, here is a picture of those numbers.
PICTURE


Back to the 14 bolt brake drum swap to make room for u-bolts and brake lines,
Look at these two drums side by side, the old one is what comes on a dual wheel C&C 14 bolt and the new one has the same 13x3.5" brakes but I think comes from a single wheel pickup axle.
PICTURE

Now look at how the original 14" drum fits in the 19.5" wheel, and note the drum has very little dish to it.
PICTURE
Also the original drum slides over the hub and the 14 bolt drum goes on the back side of the hub, further spacing it from the wheel.
I have not tested this yet but you can see in the pictures and given the drum diameters why I think this drum might be better choice.
To make the swap you'd need to space the backing plate flange out the same as difference in drum height.

Grigg,

I see what you mean. Are you headed that direction for yours or were you just curious? It would be nice to gain that inch or two back. Wouldn't be that hard to make a block to go between the backing plate and the mount, with longer grade 8 bolts. It could even just be multiple plates in a sandwich. They could be edge or plug welded together if need be.

Larry W.

Larry

wouldn't a spacer pull the axle spline out of the gears too much? Not sure how far you can come out and still keep full spline contact on a 14 bolt ff axle. Maybe you could use a different "shorter" hub or longer axle shaft to compensate for the extra axle length.

Blind,

I had to read it a couple times too.

Unless I am mistaken, the axle shaft will not be involved.

Think of it this way. Replace the deep drum with the shallow drum in the same mounting position behind the hub. This leaves the drum short of the brakes. Now, space the backing plate away from it's mount to meet up with the drum. Essentially just moving the brakes out.

I think the confusion comes from Grigg mentioning the eaton, slide on drum. I think that was just to demonstrate why the original rearend had more room between the backing plates and less room inside the 19.5 rims.

Look at the first pic in this album. See the HUGE air gap between the 14 bolt drum and the 19.5 rim?
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/7a7q8pcfwdjrtsq/AADi3BicT8DXzENJKNk5FF-fa?dl=0


Grigg,

Please correct if I got this wrong!

Larry W.

Blind,

Better yet; look at the first pic and then imagine the shallower drum would be further inside the rim and then a spacer between the brake backing plate and the axle tube's 4 bolt mount would push the brake assembly out to match it. More room!

I like it Grigg!

Larry W.

Grigg,

Hold up...

If that new drum is a SRW drum, wouldn't the matching SRW 14 bolt backing plate solve this issue? Shouldn't the offset already be right or are the brakes different?

On second thought, I'd guess it is where the backing plate mount is located on the tube, so back to spacing it out to meet the drums.

Larry W.

Larry W.

Sounds like you understand the situation as well as I do.
I'll add that the backing plate and shoes and all that hardware are the same for single or dual wheel.


The axle housings differ in where the backing plate flanges are welded on depending on what hubs and drums.
Knowing this I did some measuring of various 14 bolt axles and tried to determine if there is an axle housing either cab and chassis or single wheel while also considering different brake options... That when used with the dual type hubs (to give ~63" track width) and using shallow 13x3.5" drums would have the backing plate in the exact right place.
I didn't find a combination that seemed useful. Best option was the C&C housing and make spacers, or weld new flanges on the housing in desired location.

If making a spacer I'd want something almost like these (at whatever the right thickness is). As shown they don't pilot inside the backing plate like the original flanges do, this detail I would want to duplicate. http://www.cutthroat4x4.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=63

Or I thought it would be easier to salvage some flanges off a junk axle housing, cut off the tubes and bore out the inside/cut the weld until the flanges fall off. Then one method is measure with dial caliper adjusting new flange parallel with original flange (use all-thread and nuts to position) also at the right spacing. Or install the hub, position flange in right location and use a dial indicator to adjust the new flange for zero run-out while turning the hub, tack weld and check and weld and check and finish welding and check run-out.

Grigg

Yes, I missed that in Grigg's post. I was for some reason thinking you were looking at putting a spacer between the axle flange and backing plate. That might have thrown things out of wack. Here is a good link for all the different 14 bolts out there.

http://www.pirate4x4.com/tech/billavista/14b_bible/

Ok,

I have been keeping up until this one statement...LOL

" As shown they don't pilot inside the backing plate like the original flanges do, this detail I would want to duplicate. http://www.cutthroat4x4.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=63"

Can you re-phrase?

Larry W.

Yes, I missed that in Grigg's post. I was for some reason thinking you were looking at putting a spacer between the axle flange and backing plate. That might have thrown things out of wack. Here is a good link for all the different 14 bolts out there.

http://www.pirate4x4.com/tech/billavista/14b_bible/

Yes,

great reference material.

Larry W.

The 14 bolt "bible" does have a lot of good info but for as many questions as it has answered for me it has left just as many unanswered...

The bore in the backing plate does not fit snug on the axle tube diameter. It does fit snug over a larger diameter pilot turned on the flange. If spacing the backing plate out I'd want to again register the center of the backing plate on a pilot, the spacer would have a male and female side to allow this.
Here is a picture of the flange, and measurement 5-15/16" from back of hub to flange which is for the deep 13x3.5" drum.
PICTURE

Here's how not to do this and you can see how the backing plate does not fit the tube but would fit a larger diameter pilot.
PICTURE

I get it now Grigg. Never had one off and couldn't find a pic of the ends for some reason. Now I see. Putting it in negative made it plainer for me. The flange at the arrows is the pilot for the backing plate you are talking about then.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/gbats19emgp5v6j/PILOT.jpg?dl=0


Agreed on the tubing spacers. Looks very weak.

Spacers you listed are available in custom widths...wonder what a pair would be with a pilot on the end? I doubt my local machinist would do their standard pair for $49.99. LOL

Larry W.

Grigg,

Your idea of locating and welding new mounts is looking better. I have an extra 14 bolt in the yard I could cut up for flanges, but even though it is a 3.42 ratio, I'd still hate to do it.

Larry W.

I have a housing that is scrap, had water in it for years, seems it'd be a good donor for backing plate flanges. Or if you had a housing that spun a wheel bearing, that'd make it pretty much scrap too.

You can swap gears and carriers around. If the housing is junk just keep the 3.42 gear set complete with carrier and pinion bearing housing.

True.

Original plan was to sell it on to some with an auto trans, but probably a limited market. Plus, I could part the rest or keep for spares. It is also a C&C so I guess the parts are worth more to me than what I would sell it for. Plus I figure my Eaton drums and brakes are worth something to someone wanting to stay stock...from what I remember, they look new. 23,000 mile truck.

BTW,
I looked up for a '78 Chevy C30 pickup (year of my G30 motorhome 14 bolt) on RockAuto and found 13 x 3.5 drums for SRW and picture looks just like the one you have. I assume the holes are the same size on each of yours, both designed to mount behind the hub? Of course I guess they'd be the same size anyway, same stud diameter.

Larry W.

Grigg,

I found these, but they still don't appear to have the pilot on them.

http://www.ruffstuffspecialties.com/catalog/R2015.html

Larry W.

No, looks like they want you to use their disc brackets, not really for the old drum brakes.

I was going to ask them that. Doesn't seem like they would sell many disc brackets if you are required to cut off the OEM backing plate brackets just to weld theirs on. Also it does say OEM in the title which is confusing.

Larry W.

Grigg,

Question asked and answered...

I asked Ruff Stuff:

"Looking at 14 Bolt OEM Brake Flange Part Number:R2015"

"Description makes it sound like these have a bolt pattern that only matches your brackets for disc brakes, but the disc brackets referenced in the description make no mention of requiring the use of the R2015 brackets. So is the bolt pattern on the R2015 bracket a proprietary pattern or is it the same as the OEM 14 bolt axle flange bracket?"


Their answer:

RuffStuff Specialties - <[email protected]>

Today at 7:47 PM

To: Larry W


Message body


"Hi Larry, the brackets are factory 14-bolt pattern. We weld these on our axle housings to adapt disc brakes, but they can also be used as a spacer to attach to the factory flange for disc offset. Thanks Ron"


So, not what they are intended for and they do not have the pilot but may be a good base for modification.....???

Larry

Grigg,

Not the style of lug nuts I was going to use, but I have found that McGard lug nuts are USA made.

Looking up a '78 P30 yields a McGard 64806, but they are TALL and in chrome. Looks like a black version is also available 64816.
A search for a "78 C30 yields the same results.

Notes for: 1978 Chevrolet P30
For use with 8 lug wheels.; Lug nuts have a 7/8 in. hex. (packs of 8)


http://www.mcgard.com/index.php/com...amp;ymm_make=Chevrolet&ymm_model=P30

I believe what I am using would be an equivalent of a Budd 41233, but I find no retailers for it when doing a Google search. That is also the same as a Dorman 611-053, which may be what you got from NAPA and didn't like.

The GMC number appears to be 334387 and is apparently available as it let me add 32 of them to my cart, but no idea on country of origin.

Larry W.

Grigg,

Could you measure your saddle and tell me what the center to center bolt patterns are on them, front to back and side to side?

From the picture with the ruler it looks like the side to side might be 3-1/8" maybe 3-1/4".

Thanks,

Larry W.

Grigg,

I am tempted to order one of these and play around with it.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/350714382402?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&fromMakeTrack=true

I laid their measurements out on paper and it would seem to be made for 2-1/2" springs, but I am wondering about a 1 pc. CAPTURED shim to make up the side widths. Like an upside down "U" that would wrap down over the top of the spring pack and be held down by the ubolts. Essentially a top "saddle"

OR

Slice it down the center and remove the material to make it fit a 2" spring. This part is advertised as cast STEEL and from what I have read should be able to be welded back together like any other steel part as long as it is preheated and slow cooled, just to prevent warping.

Larry W.

I suppose you could cut about 1/2" out of the center and weld it back together.
The Ford ones should be real cheap in a junkyard though.

Or swap springs from a 1.5 (or 2) ton, they're 2.5" wide already and fit the spring hangers and shackles. I actually want to do this but have not found a good set, so I'll use what I already have.

I haven't started looking for plain simple US made lug nuts yet. Euclid might make some.

The Ford saddles are just hard to find. I sent about 8 or 10 e-mails out to classic scrappers today and nobody that replied has them.

I didn't know about the big bolt springs mounting up where the others are. Hmmm. I'll keep that in mind but wider will be more in the way for me at the moment.
I don't think cutting and welding the new saddles would be too bad.

Gonna do some more measuring on my two 14 bolts. One has a deep offset in the backing plates and the other has almost none. I know there were lots of little variations. Although I don't really want to, I may end up swapping the 4.10's into the one with less offset, just to gain that little bit of clearance.

Larry W.

Do both use 3.5" wide brakes?
I know the backing plates differ for different shoe size.

Not sure. Have not had the drums off of either one. But here are the 2 backing plates. Only pics I have right now. The rusty one is the 3.42 ratio.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/5ipq7vgrv6rueyj/AABIjf5fcaInmCMRtcEPsfa5a?dl=0


Larry W.

Here's a set.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/41-42-46-47-48-49-50-51-52-53-54-CHEVY-GMC-1-1-2-2-TON-TRUCK-REAR-LEAF-SPRINGS-/141880893513?hash=item2108c2a049:g:z38AAOSwpRRWnUDN&vxp=mtr


Larry W.

I think you'll find the rusty one has 2.5" brakes.
Thanks for the spring link. I should find the detailed specs for the 1.5 ton springs because I have a pretty good 2 ton set which after removing a few leaves might can reconfigure to be same as 1.5 ton.

Those springs did seem a bit steep, but then I'm CHEAP! LOL.

Sounds like a good plan if you have a set handy. Almost looks like you could use half of that stack on the ePay link. That is a heck of a stack!

I really didn't want to mess with the 3.42 anyway, and I bet you are right on the brakes. I am leery of getting a good pattern after the swap and this is an outdoor project right now. I am gonna order a set of those 73-87 saddles and play with that and also a backing plate spacer at first. Simpler than remove and add back the brackets. Another yard e-mailed me today to say they didn't have any of the Ford saddles and he looked at two of their yards.

You guys in the path of this storm? We're gonna get wet and have some wind down here. If you are, stay home! I need you around for ideas! LOL!!!!

Larry W.