The Stovebolt Site Forums The Parking Lot Tons 'o Fun 14 bolt axle swap Considerations, Brainstorming, and Solutions

Yep, it started snowing about 8:00 this morning, last night they were saying wouldn't start until 10:00 or 11:00... All week I've been trying and planning to rearrange the garage prior to the storm but didn't have time until this morning, in the snow. Yesterday helped a friend move all day and was too whooped, and too late by the time I got home. If only yesterday's forecast was true I would have finished just before the snow.

Got the GMC truck stuffed in, an 07 model axle on saw horses to pull the disc brakes, 19.5" and 18" wheels inside to check brake drum fit, and got the car in too. Just enough room to get around things and work.

Before you order those axle saddles have you thought of having some plasma or water jet cut from about 1.5" plate with bolt holes like you want? Then would need to mill (or plenty of careful grinding) to match axle tube diameter.
Honestly I'd keep looking for the Ford ones, they ought to be cheaper than anything else. Post a wanted ad on one of the Ford truck Forums, and or visit some junkyards in person. I'll keep an eye out when I go to the yards next.

Sounds like my garage. But yours is bigger and nicer,I saw the pics. I am tripping over a 37 JD B, a Gravely Convertible, a Cushman in pcs., a Gravely 16-G, and a lot of other stuff, in a 14x24 pole "barn". Therefore the truck is outside on 3/4" plywood.

Thanks for looking out for saddles. None of the yards around here have old stuff that I can find. I did talk about making my own, which probably wouldn't be that hard. May still go that route, but not ruling out any options just yet. I have looked on some Ford forums, but have not joined and posted yet, but that may be the best bet. Your pics and part numbers will help there. Picture is worth a 1000..........

Stay warm. I'll be out in the cold tomorrow. Something like 70 here today...tomorrow...high of 49. Figures, right?

Larry

Hey Grigg,

Did your springs and shackles have much movement side to side when you had them hanging from the frame and no axle?

Larry

I have a pair of Ford saddles that are off a 1941 COE. They are for the 2 1/2" leaf springs though and look like they are pretty much the same measurements as the Ebay link you posted. Wish we were in the same city, it would be easy to see how they fit!

Not sure I ever tried that, but with good pins and bushings I wouldn't expect any real slop or side to side movement. Just a little flex perhaps, but not slop.
Spring pins and bushings seem to always be worn on these old trucks unless exceptionally low miles and well greased.

Me too, but TODAY, I'll stay here....

Quote from one of the wrecking yards out west I e-mailed...

"I agree must be a rare critter being as we don't have any out of 4000+ vehicles."

"I was surprised."

Right now I am looking for 14 bolt saddles (should be close to right arch for axle tube) that are made from plate steel or stamped steel. Easy to cut up and weld back together to make the hole right and the spring width right. I don't mind welding. Shhhh. I'm at work. :-) LOL

Larry

Grigg,

Check your saddles and see if they are made of un-obtanium. LOL

Response from one of my e-mails about the saddles:

L&L Classic Auto <[email protected]>

Today at 12:09 PM

ToLarry Wyant


Message body




We have some of those for 200.00 plus shipping. thank you!


On Thu, Jan 21, 2016 at 7:54 AM, Larry Wyant <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
> Looking for another set of these axle or u-bolt saddles that were found on a
> Dana axle under a 1961 Ford F350.
>
> Part number off of needed part appears to be C1TT5796Z. See pictures please.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Larry W.

Wow, that's ridiculous. They must think you really need them...

We're not talking about much of a difference in axle tube diameter here.
I just used a pair of calipers and carefully measured axle tube diameters.
14 bolt 3-3/8"
Eaton 3-1/4"

The original GM saddles and the bolt hole spacing may just clear the 3-3/8" axle tube on the 14 bolt. I don't have or can't find a clean set to measure just yet.
U-bolts are 5/8" so spacing needs to be 4" minimum up to perhaps 4-1/4" center to center.

This means with just 1/8" difference in diameter or 1/16" per side a little machine work could adapt the original saddles (for 2" wide springs) to the 14 bolt.
Similarly you could scavenge 2" wide spring perches from an old Eaton housing.

I am sure they thought they were a part I needed for a restoration or something. Funny thing is, I have seen similar parts on ebay for the same money. I quickly declined their offer. I hope they cut them off the truck before they priced them to me. LOL. Is that wrong??????

I have the old saddles and will look into the fit, I do not have new u-bolts yet, but the old ones will work as a test. I'm using them now to hold the 14 in as a test. I have the spring center bolts sitting in one of the pockets to the front or rear of the hole on the original perches. It's a shame, they only lack lining up by maybe an inch.

I am pulling the rear out again anyway, I have a set of the 2" trailer perches that are made for huge weight, so I will try to get the old ones cut off this weekend and test fit it with the 2" perches and the old bolts and saddles.

Larry W.

You may find this helpful on the saddles. PICTURE
The old Eaton saddle has bolt pattern of 2-13/16" x 4"
The 60's Ford is 2-7/8" x 4-3/16"
Either would allow the 5/8" U-bolts to fit around the 3-3/8" axle tube on a 14 bolt and 2" springs on an AD 1 ton; after massaging the radius to fit axle tube.


Back to the brake drums on the 14 bolt.
This picture shows both options for 13"x3.5" brakes.
PICTURE
The shallow drum is NAPA part number 440-1651, I've seen them on single wheel 1 ton's. The deep drum comes on dual wheel trucks.

Now lets test the shallow drum mounted behind a 14 bolt hub in an original 18" wheel.
Fits just fine.
PICTURE 1
PICTURE 2

Now same setup in a 19.5 dual wheel.
Fits great as well.
PICTURE 3
PICTURE 4

So to fit a 14 bolt cab & chassis axle easily around the springs and such in an AD 1 ton (really 3/4 through 2 ton) I would recommend these shallower drums. The backing plate needs to be spaced out or flange moved by exactly 1.25"" to make the drum swap.

And last test fit a 19.5 dual wheel on a late model AAM 11.5" GM single wheel axle with disc brakes.
It won't fit because caliper hits the wheel. However if the drum is fit to the back side of the hub on a 14 bolt it may fit just fine with the added offset from the hub thickness, or buy the taller rotor from a dual application. I'm planning single wheels anyhow, but was curious if it'd fit a dual 19.5; answer is no, not as is.
PICTURE 5

Getting ready to read your last post.

Look what showed up today...

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/7a7q8pcfwdjrtsq/AADi3BicT8DXzENJKNk5FF-fa?dl=0

Ok, what are the 2 nubs, tits or whatever you wanna call them on the rings for? My P30 wheels have no holes except the lug holes, that I can see.

Larry W.

The two nipples on the wheel clamp plates are something to do with hub caps. I've not bothered to find out exactly how and why; I don't need hub caps.

For new spring perches to put the 14 bolt under the AD 1 ton (or 3/4) I really like these.
http://www.ruffstuffspecialties.com/catalog/2-PERCH.html
They're for 2" springs and will let you move the axle forward, or more importantly back, 1" which would center wheels in the fenders and I think allow 14 bolt to use original driveshaft without modification.

Downside is they don't fit the axle tube diameter but can be trimmed, ground, or machined to fit.
Still the best option I could find. (Second best is original Eaton perches but this won't center wheels in fenders or help with driveshaft.)

Ditto on the hub caps.

These perches were nice and cheap, but now that they are in hand, I don't think I'll use them for anything but test fitting.

They are only 4" long. Seems a bit short now.
Advertised as 2" wide, but are more in the 1-7/8" range.
Seem plenty thick though.

The only thing about yours is the price but probably well worth it.

I'll have no fenders, but it does look like they would make my driveshaft line up. I hadn't gotten to the point of verifying a u-joint size match yet, but if they are the same that will be a great bonus.

Larry W.

Yes, original U-joint is a Spicer 1350 and a 14 bolt most always comes with 1350 yoke.

Handy.

Duh,
I read that ad at least twice and didn't see that they were sold in pairs. I said they were pricey, but I was thinking it was gonna be $70.00 for a pair. $35.00 is good though.

FYI, I am looking into another one, same design, .250 thickness, cnc bent, but $30.00 per pair and it sounds like they might be able to do it for a 3.375" 14 bolt axle. I wouldn't be surprised to find an upcharge for custom, but if reasonable, I will let you know. Be nice to have them ready to drop on and weld.


Larry

Yes, that'd be nice, let me know what you find.

Well,

The brackets I found are here,

http://www.barnes4wd.com/Anti-Wrap-Leaf-Spring-Perch-Pair-IH-Scout_p_87.html

but they won't customize them. They are $5.00 less and slightly shorter. Since they won't customize them, for me, it will come down to price and shipping cost on which ones I pick I guess. They are pretty much identical.

Spent the day out side today, which normally is no big deal, but it is "North" Florida. It never made it to 40 degrees today. Even some tiny snow flakes every once in a while. Very windy too. Brrrrr.

I took the 14 bolt back out of the truck, after the test fit, and put it on my new "work bench" (pictures). It's nice to have no bed on the truck.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/7a7q8pcfwdjrtsq/AADi3BicT8DXzENJKNk5FF-fa?dl=0

I did some wheel and tire comparison shots the other day.
Today I stripped the hubs and drums off and pressed all the studs out to remove the drums.
All the shoes will need replaced and I'll do a new small parts kit too.
I put the hubs back on the housing to protect the spindles while I got rid of the stock perches. The first perch I had off in 10 minutes, the second one took every bit of an hour at least. The first I was able simply slice through the welds and knock off with a sledge. The second one was FULLY welded all around and deep. The second one is now in pcs. (pictures).

Tomorrow, probably outside again, doing ???

I did lay my original saddle on top of the axle. I put the old u-bolts down through it, past the axle. I then pinched them together and measured from the end of one u-bolt to the other and came up with a rough measurement of 4" center to center. Then I removed the saddle and measured it to be basically the same. I do believe that with only minor adjustment, they could be used on the 14 bolt as you suggested. I may clearance them tomorrow and test fit the rearend under the truck again. If they will work, that is what I will use.

Larry W.

I ended up going with the ones from Barnes.

$30.00 and free shipping.

RuffStuff would have been $50.95 with the cheapest shipping.

Larry W.

Larry, did you find a supplier for the 2" u-bolts or are you reusing the old u-bolts?

I found some the other day, even custom lengths, but I have not ordered any yet and don't remember who it was. I ordered some new perches and I am waiting on those so I can make sure of the length u-bolts I'll need. I got a set of the trailer ones, and they were a bit small for my taste, but they were great for a test fit. I ordered some anti-wrap 4x4 style perches and want them in place before I get u-bolts. I'll do a post today showing the test fit and the stock saddles on the 14 bolt. They will actually work perfectly.

Larry W.

Been kinda quiet on here all weekend...I'm guessing people are digging out or out of power. Hope everyone is well.

Larry W.

I tried another idea on making the brakes stick out of the wheel less.
PICTURE
This is the single wheel drum slid over top of the dual type hub, not behind it like it was intended to go.
It fits but not piloted well, a little more slop than I would want.
PICTURE

I'm not sure if a different year hub might fit tighter, sort of doubt it.
Also, this lets the drum cover up all of the hub pilot and you'd then be stuck using single wheels as they are stud piloted. This would not be a good idea with dual type wheels that need to be hub piloted. Further complicated is the drum won't even fit and mate flat inside dual wheel.

If the hub fit the drum snug and if you plan to run single wheels there is one nice thing about the idea. If you used the dual hubs on a single wheel axle housing (with the backing plate flanges welded on the axle measuring 50-5/8" across). Then you'd only need 7/16" spacers between backing plates and the flanges.
The increase in wheel mounting surface by installing the drums outside the hubs is 0.788".

The hub fit could be addressed by turning off the pilot and fitting a sleeve with the correct OD.

If taking the sleeve approach I suppose you could do this with the original deep 13x3.5" drums (should fit in the wheel) and make that sleeve long enough to support the ID of dual wheels. However this does not result in a convenient backing plate position relative to any flange on the axle. For dual wheels instead of all that trouble I'd go back to the idea of a shallow drum on the back side of the hub and a 1.25" spacer as discussed in an earlier post.

All that rambling in case someone else has the same idea and is curious about the answers.
I don't plan to follow through with these ideas, in fact I don't think I'll be using drums at all at this point.

Grigg

Grigg,

Good idea on the drums anyway. I'll be sticking with the duals, so I'll be spacing most likely. Glad you brought up the stock saddles the other day. I had in my mind that they were a no go, so never checked. Well they are going to work perfect for me I think.

Pictures

The 80 grit emery cloth over the axle tube worked great for the first one, but the second one needed more work. so I ended up using a flap wheel to grind the ends and then test the fit with the emery cloth until I got it down close enough to finish with the emery. Essentially, lapping them to the axle. Very little was actually removed.

Notice that the u-bolts (which will be replaced)cross the springs exactly where they did on the stock axle. I did run an 11/16" drill through all the saddle holes just to clean up any out of round or flash that might have been there. The perches are the trailer style and will be replaced with the ones from Barnes. I will likey just take them to a machine shop and have them re-radius the bigger perches to the 3-3/8" size. That way I know they will be square to the axle.


Now about those spacers...I have not gotten an answer yet, but I have asked Cutthroat how thick their custom thickness spacers can be. I figure if they are available thick enough, then why not order them about an 1/8" too thick and then have them turned locally to leave a pilot on them for the backing plate. (EDIT) That won't work, they are pilot size all the way through I assume. Maybe they could be made that way though).

The other option I considered is to simply line them up as perfect as possible and weld the spacer to the backing plate, so it is just one pc.

P.S.
I will likely end up with discs (4 wheel)in the long run too, but if I can do this pretty cheaply, I will go to disc on the back later. I will absolutely do disc on the front, but that isn't too cheap, so once I get ready to do the front, then I'll address the rear.

Larry W.

Nice work on the original saddles.
I think with a sturdy paper 3-3/8" diameter template you can layout your cut line and use the grinder and sand paper trick on your new spring perches. Lay it out so equal amounts are removed front and back of the arch and zero at the top.

I don't think you gain anything by starting with what I've seen of the commercially available spacers.
If they need modification, welding, or machine work for the pilot after the fact may as well start out and have made exactly what you want from one place the first time. If you purchase spacers be sure the ID is small enough (close to 3-3/8") so there is material to turn a pilot from.
When I was considering these 1.25" spacers I was either going to band saw them out of some stock I have on hand and bore the inside out on the lathe. Or have them plasma cut to size outside and leave a little extra material inside. The steel supplier does plasma cutting quite reasonably, and free delivery. In both cases finishing machine work on the lathe and mill.

Welding the thick spacer to the backing plate is one idea, but I personally try to avoid modifying parts that don't really need to be. Later if you need another backing plate it's an easy junkyard find and install if you didn't modify first one.

Grigg

Wouldn't have thought to try it unless you mentioned it. Glad you did.

Yeah, I edited that post a few minutes ago, after I realized that if the spacer I.D. is the size of the pilot (asked, not answered yet)then there is no material to turn a pilot from.

If available in the right thickness, and the I.D. is made to fit the pilot, then I may see if they can make me a set of male/female spacers in the right width. Even if they want double the asking price for the custom work, it will likely be cheaper than my local guy from scratch. I needed a transmission shaft years ago. Maybe 3" long, turned down to 1/2" at each end from about 3/4" thick and it was $80.00!

If I had access to the machine tools, I would definitely just make them.

Such is life,

Larry W.

Blind,

This one will do custom u-bolts.
U-Bolts

Bottom of the page where it says "How do I measure a u-bolt?". About half way through that paragraph. I found another one, but I have not found it yet.

Larry W.

Larry, I was also able to use the orignal saddles, I like your idea with the emery cloth. I might go back and clean mine up a bit. I still need to replace the U-Bolts before I am done with the axle. I was able to pick up some that were 2-9/16 x 14"x 5/8" for mock up but will replace them before were done. I have not found any of the correct size yet so let me know if you find a supplier.

Grigg,

Any idea if these AD u-bolts are grade 5 or grade 8? I see both available and may just do the grade 8 if available in length I need.

Larry W.

Blind,

My biggest issue was enough open space on the axle tube to do it. Ultimately, I abandoned the clamps and just used my hand to hold 2 longer pcs side by side from underneath. Rolling the saddle forward and back around the tube seemed to work best, as opposed to side to side along the length of the tube. Everything wanted to move when I tried that.


Blind,

This one will do custom u-bolts.
U-Bolts

Bottom of the page where it says "How do I measure a u-bolt?". About half way through that paragraph. I found another one, but I have not found it yet.

Larry W.

Blind,

Here is a link to a 5/8 x 2-1/16 x 10-7/8" Grade 8 U-Bolt.

Not sure how long you need, but these are available in 1 inch increments down to about 5-7/8"

http://www.nickstruckparts.com/8u-3210s.html

Price is for 2 ubolts, 4 nuts, 4 washers.

Probably where I'll get mine.

Larry W.

Not sure if grade 5 or 8 on the u-bolts, I wasn't aware of choices. I'd probably use grade 8.

I've had various u-bolts made at a local truck stop/parts place, and they have been very cheap, complete with heavy hardened washers and tall nuts.
They have the u-bolts as various straight lengths and bend them round or square or what have you as needed.

Ask around locally before paying shipping on some.

Awesome! thank you

I never thought about the grade 8 until I saw it in a search result somewhere. Then I wondered what stock would have been. No reason not to use the strongest ones I guess.

Mean while, back at the farm....
Have you ever seen the mountings for the optional shocks? I know the Eaton and the 14b both seem to have similar mounts on the axle tubes, but I wonder how they were mounted at the top end on an AD. Rockauto shows them as:

GABRIEL 82066 CLASSIC Rear; 3600 Model; 3800 Model

which has a bushed eyelet on one end, the bottom I assume, and a stem on the other. I'm guessing there were add-on brackets or an add-on cross member.

Larry W.

Since the 14 bolt already has opposing shock mounts I have been looking into adding shocks to mine. Not sure what size and where to mount the upper mounts. Would be interesting to explore this. Maybe we should start another thread for shocks.

I am surprised at the cost of parts / kit to rebuild the rear shackle and spring bushings at the places I found them. Jim Carter, Chevs of the 40's and Eatondetroitspring. Any sources I am not finding?

Also tried Classic Truck Parts
LMC
several others I think.

Truck is low mileage, but I think heavy loads, lack of grease and farm use were the issue.

Larry

You might try Rockauto. I have gotten a few things from them

I might have already, I'll check again.

OK,

Maybe I didn't. I found what I think I'll need for the rear springs only right now.

I got two of:
ACDELCO 45G17004 {#88913120} Shackle Bolt Professional
Fits Rear; 3700 Model; 3900 Model
Or Rear Forward; 3600 Model; 3800 Model

And two of:
ACDELCO 45G16009 {#88913036} Qty 2 Shackle Bolt Professional
Rear; 3600 Model; 3700 Model; 3800 Model; 3900 Model


Thought I looked but if I did I missed it.

Total of like $75.00 even with 2 day shipping.

Thanks Blind.

Larry W.

here are the front rearward shackle bolt, looks like jegs has them for about 12.99ea


http://www.jegs.com/i/ACDelco/065/4...qJ97bGzfCRKhAPTr0iQRu0HNOHgDjhoC4Snw_wcB