The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area Paint and Body Shop Paint Quality Issue

Working within a modest budget. My old truck does not receive the top of the line parts, nor do I invest in the NOS parts that come across on Ebay. But we do OK and I believe I won't have a cut up or butchered truck with a camero front clip or the modern conveniences of todays home. I prefer it to look 50ish and have those impaling and metal features of the steering wheel and dash board.

This budget also dictates that I look into an economical way of painting the truck. In earlier posts I asked about the Maco ambassidor paint jobs and general painting tips. Got some good advise and cool stories. Thanks.

I have been working on the trucks paint by sanding and using rattlecan primer to contain the surface rust. The only bad rust is under the drivers door. I have no idea what to do there. The skin seems to have rusted away from the door frame. I am not a welder, and fiberglass was not recommended by some. So, what to do there. Future subject. But anyways I got the bed all primered up and even have the inside coated with POR-15. I like that but it turns purple if it is not primed.

Now, the last time I was in O'Reileys I noticed they have automotive primer and paint from Dupli color. The paint comes in 40 colors. I figure one shade must be close to the original transport blue. I also have a Binks hplv sprayer (I think that is what it is called - maybe it is hlpv or hvlp) and will experiment with it. I have read and copied all the posts on prep and painting, so that is cool.

So, the question is this paint is about $30 a gallon and that is economical. The primer is about $9 a quart. The primer is diluted with another Dupli color product which costs about $4 a quart. Much cheaper than the rattle cans. And seems to work about as good if not better.

An earlier post stated it takes about 1 gallon to paint an AD. Mine is a TF so I figure about the same is necessary for the TF. If I put on a couple of coats of this paint is a clear coat needed and what does that mean? Where is that from? An automotive paint supply? What does that cost? Or maybe if I understood whether I needed it or not they would have it but not on the shelf.

Finally, I would like my truck to look nice but plan to use it for transportation and go-fer trips. No trailer queen. I think I could tackle this but would like to get advise on the basics and whether this paint will save me money, or end up in the money pit. And I have enough money pits. Kids.

TIA

clear coat is another layer of clear paint that gives the glossy look the the colour.
I dont believe you will need and for dupli paints.
I believe they are a single stage paint.

about your rattle can primmer I would re go over the hole truck with the dupli primer sealor than wet sand it all down than go ahead and paint it.

First, remember that rust never sleeps, and primer doesn't seal. Anything that you have primed with rattlecan primer will begin to rust within a week, depending on your climate. Always paint over the primer to seal the air holes.

Duplicolor is now owned by Krylon. You can get info through their website, and they do sell a clear coat sealer. I have a truck that has a Maaco paint job, the key is in surface prep. If you are able to do the prep, you will get a halfway decent paint job. Mine will probably need repainted in three years, the way it looks. It has no clear coat, the first thing I had to do was replace the leaky gas cap and repaint the side of the truck where the gas ate through the paint. That's how I learned there was no clear coat, gas won't eat through it that fast.

On the rust you can't repair now, I would clean it the best I could, and apply POR-15, it will at least stop the rust from getting worse.

Remember, rust never sleeps. [img]http://www.fradsplace.com/icons/icon59.gif[/img]

I used to paint trucks in my driveway, but you could tell. Now I have either 1Day or Maaco do them. I strip off all the chrome, sometimes glass, seat, all bumpers, and I unbolt the bed and move it back 8 inches. I have bought 2 quarts to paint insides and interior beds. That paint alone costs $100. I just had a '55 Chevy Napco 7' bed done last December. I had them paint it inside and out original Chevy Commercial Red. Firewall, bed, everything! I had done most of the bodywork, but went over the truck with the black crayon. It came back beautiful! The value of a good professional paint job is well worth the money, instead of saving a couple hundred, but it looks that way.
No repaints on hoods or fenders. No runs, or flat spots. I think it cost about $800.It also gives you a couple weeks to get away from the truck, and shine up chrome parts, paint bumpers, and get ready for assembly.Right now I have a '55 Chevy Nomad sitting at Maaco. They are doing all the body work, then I will bring it home to remove dash and door handles etc, and then send it back for a complete inside/outside turquoise/white top of the line paint job.

Wondertruck,
It seems that you have had good experience with Maaco. I like so many having a limited budget for my truck ('50 3100 deluxe) & need to watch how much I spend so I need to best bang for the buck. I was considering using another big chain called Miracle but not 100% sold yet.

I plan to remove all chrome and glass, unbolt bed and fenders, etc. I will have them probably do the interior also. Did you supply paint or were they able to match what you wanted ? I want to use the original forester green color for my year yet have the quality of today's paints such as two stage urethenes, etc.

There will be a fair amount of body work to be done but nothing that any body shop couldn't handle.

Here's my question: Will they paint the sheet metal parts seperately if I give it to them that way ? I will want to install new fender welt so why not remove the fenders all together ?

If theres any tips you can provide, I'd greatly appreciate it.

I looked into miracle last year. First off, they don't do any proper preperation. They do a light sanding and a bad taping job. So, I figured like you, what if I do all the prep work and just let them shoot it. So I went and looked and saw some cars that came out of their shop wet. They were covered with dust since the sanding was done nearby and the car has to sit there waiting to dry.

Then I looked into the paints they used and they are quite inferior. Talking with people that had previous jobs done, I learned the basic proplems were delamination of the clear coat after a short while.

Now, imagine doing all that much work, disassembling etc just to get a job that will look [censored] after one year?

So, then I found a small shop that would do the same thing. Only he is willing to use any brand paint I want. With me doing the prep, using the proper quality materials, it will come down to the skill of the man with the paintgun in how good it will look. And it should last.

Finally, add up the Miracle price and even without prep their top paint with clearcoat would cost like $800 and I don't think they do custom colors. (not sure)

Guys, Macco, Miricle, and these other "McPaint" shops are NOT like a McDonalds, there is no real consistancy in quality.
While McDonalds has lived by the consistancy in it's product from resturant to resturant, these "chain" paint shops are not the same.

They most all independantly owned by "investors" NOT body and paint people. The body and paint guy opens "Bob's body shop" (his name) they do not spend the money (they probably don't even have) to buy a franchise.

That being said, you are not dealing with the same people as you would in a "real" body shop.
This may be good, this may be bad, depending on what shop you visit.

These shops are as different as you and me. I have personally had very few "good" experiances with them. I have on the other hand had very bad ones. I was lied to, given HORABLE work and told that is as good as it gets, the works.

But I also have seen where they give an "ok" and for sure, your moneys worth. So, what you get at your neighborhood "McPaint" shop is anyones guess.

The Duplicolor paint is actually pretty good quality. That is IF it is an Acrylic Enamel as I believe that particular "Duplicolor" product is. Now, I am going from memory when I repped a Sherwin Williams label so if I am wrong forgive me. But I do know one thing, Duplicolor is not "owned" by Krylon, they both are in fact owned by Sherwin Williams. The Duplicolor name, as well as Krylon, Western, Martin-Senour, and others are all "labels" of Sherwin Williams. They are usually the exact same product with just a different "label" on the can. The difference is how they distibute it. Martin Senour for instance is sold though NAPA stores only. But you will also see Duplicolor at NAPA stores, but ONLY in rattle cans. Where, the Martin Senour label is available there on all paint products like 2K primers and paints to do professional work.

The clear coat is not the deciding factor if your paint will hold up to gas or not. The deciding factor is whether the paint or clear is "2K". "2K" means that it had a hardener added to the paint, primer or clear. This hardener makes the product "cure", not just "dry". It cures when molocules link up and create a different product on the surface of the vehicle. When you have a "2K" product, you have a product that is "Insoluable" and gas, or other solvents will not hurt it (different products will have varying degrees of insoluablity, if that was a word ). If it is not "2K" it then it is not "Cured" and is basically the same product you poured out of the can, and is soluable just like it was when you poured it out of the can, it has not "changed into" this insoluable layer like a 2K.

Yes, you can paint a truck at home with good success.

No, not all "McPaint" shops will paint your truck apart, but some will.

No, not all "McPaint" shops will give you a quality job.

I guess you have gotten by now, as far as I am concerned, there are a LOT of variables here.

I would research all the shops in your area, "McPaint" shops as well as "real" shops and get to know some differences. Some "real" shops won't give you as good as the bad work at the "McPaint" shops but your odds are much better at the real shops.

Dennis, your in Dallas, there are many other sources for your paint. If you post the brand names of the paint available I may be able to give you the sealers and paints to get your job done. For instance, if you are simply going to sand and paint your truck like a "McPaint" shop would do, there are "Primer sealers" that you could use that are non-sanding and would really help with the hold up of the paint. There are paints that are just a few dollars more that are much better than the 30 dollar a gallon stuff, etc. You have many more options than you are seeing right now.

Martinsr (Senor Martin),

Thank you for your reply on this subject. McPaints are as good as (1)the day your project is there and (2) who showed up that day to work. Also pray this is not their first job. But the price is right.

You asked about availability. I believe living in a big city (Dallas) most paint products are available here. I am interested in primer and durability. I will continue working on my trucks exterior.

To date I have mainly concentrated on the box of the truck. The box is an easy place to start and harmless. After this experience, I will move forward to the cab.

I have been sanding and/or stripping. Then cleaning and priming (mainly with rattle cans).

What do I need to know about primers? Do I use the primer or primer sealer? Do I need to know about etcher primers? How long would the primer last?

I am working slow and looking to painting next spring or summer? Will primers last that long?

I appreciate any help I can get.

TIA

This should tell you every thing you need to get a good grasp on the subject.
.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>&gt ;>>>>Paint technology basics

There are many different types (or more correctly, technologies) of products you can use in the restoration or repair of your vehicle. Some have a variety of uses while others are very limited with only a few of specific uses. Proper choice of products can help you get the job done faster and/or help with the longevity of the repair.
Let's start with some basic definitions. I couldn't possibly know every paint manufactures terminology or product use. These are generalities and should be used as a guide only to then read the tech sheets of the products you have chosen for proper use. These tech sheets can be found at the jobber and are given away free. Or most manufactures have them on line, USE THEM. They are a wealth of information and can save you many headaches. You don't need to read every word in the mind numbing text, they usually have a “product at a glance” or something like that will cut to the chase and give you what you need.

Basic terminology's;

“Solvent” is a generic term and refers to any “reducer”, “thinner” that is used to reduce the viscosity (“thickness”) of a product to aid in spraying or applying. It could be acetone, lacquer thinner, urethane reducer, a special “basecoat” reducer, water, alcohol, etc. These solvents ARE NOT INTERCHANGEABLE; each product MUST be used with the specific solvent recommended by the manufacture.
“Etch primer” an acid containing primer.
“Primer” a product that can be applied to bare metal
“Surfacer” (or “primer surfacer”) A primer that has “body” or solids and is used to fill imperfections and provide a film thickness to sand or block a surface to a smooth base for paint.
“Sealer” a non-sanding product that is applied prior to painting.
“Primer-sealer” A sealer that can be applied over bare metal and then top coated without sanding.
“Flash time” the time you allow the solvents to evaporate out of the film you have applied.

Basic technologies;
“Single component” or RTS (Ready To Spray). This is a product that uses no additional components. Just pour it from the can into your gun and shoot. Examples are: Some plastic adhesion promoters and primers and even some top coats like vinyl colors.

“1K” This is a product that uses no hardener, catalyst, activator, etc. It may have an added solvent, but no hardener or activating reducer. 1K products like RTS dry with the evaporation of solvents and are soluble, meaning that they are could be wiped off with a rag soaked with lacquer thinner. They could in THEORY be scraped off and put in a can with solvent and stirred back to a sprayable condition. Of course ALL RTS products are 1K. Examples: All lacquer products, some synthetic enamel products, and some acrylic enamel products. Because of the low VOC regulations the 1K product options are getting scarce, with most limited to “specialty products” like adhesion promoters.

“2K” or “Two component” is any product that uses a hardener, activator, catalyst, etc. It may or may not use a third component in the form of a solvent. 2K products don't “dry” like a 1K. The 2K product “cures” by molecules linking together to form a whole new compound. Most high quality 2Ks are insoluble after a full cure and will not soften when exposed to solvents like thinners or gas. Examples are urethane under coats and top coats. Epoxies, ISO free products that use a hardener, etc.

Basic tip, ALL 2K products should be mixed as accurately as possible. As a rule 2K products need a minimum of 55 degrees to cure with an ideal minimum of 65 degrees. MIX THEM AS DESCRIBED BY THE MANUFACTURE. They have spent hundreds of thousands, possibly millions of dollars developing the product, they WANT it to work as BEST it can. Do as they say, don't become a “Junior Chemist”.

Types of products and their uses;

Etch primers (some are 2K)

“Wash” or “Vinyl wash” are for bare metal applications for the ultimate in adhesion and corrosion protection. They are very low in solids with next to zero filling qualities. Some are even semi transparent. They are usually not to be top coated with paint. You apply them to aid in adhesion and corrosion protection under other undercoats such as epoxy or urethane primers.
Benefits:
- Very thin, keeps down film build
- Cost effective
- Fast application
- Non-sanding
- Super high corrosion protection.

Disadvantages:
- Some have a very small re-coat window

“Etch primer” (some are 2K)

Typical “etch primers” have much more solids and body than “wash” primers. They are more forgiving than “wash” primers, one thing being a much longer re-coat window. They are basically used to aid in adhesion and corrosion protection as with “wash” primer. You would choose “typical” etch over “wash” if you have some paint or plastic filler as a substrate along with the bare metal. Some brands have a recommendation to apply top coats over it also. This could be very useful in a money saving or time saving is important.

Benefits:
- Easy to apply, smooth, easy to sand
- Some can be applied over plastic filler (not that you need it over the plastic filler, but if you have some, it is nice to not have to go around it)
- Some can be top coated, which can be a big time and money saver.
- VERY cost effective

Disadvantages:
- Added product to buy and apply.

IMPORTANT basic! If you have used ANY metal treatment or “conditioner” read tech sheets carefully for compatibility . The acid in the metal “treatment” or “conditioner” can attack the acid in etch primers and it can LOOSE adhesion from the metal!

Urethane primer (2K) Urethane primer is the most common primer used in auto body and restoration by far. It has good solids and fills well. It is easy to sand and can provide you with a perfect body when blocked properly. Care should be taken when applying it as to not use too much. It can shrink when applied too heavy. It is the best all around primer for applying over plastic body filler and for surfacing your work. If used properly it provides the proper film thickness under top coats and is the perfect substrate for bs/ss and SS.

Benefits:
- Easy to apply, and sand.
- Applies smooth.
- Fills well with minimum of shrinkage

Disadvantages:
- Contains Isocyanates.
- Should always use an etch primer under it.

Epoxy primer (2K)

Epoxy is a good corrosion fighter. It is has a very sticky resin and will provide good adhesion to MOST substrates. It typically has poor filling and sanding qualities (that sticky resin makes sanding difficult) . It is ideal for use as a “primer/sealer” on bare metal that requires no surfacing.
Perfect for frames and components, radiator supports, items that are sandblasted and you only need to prime and paint. You use it as a non-sanding “primer/sealer” and then paint right over it.

Benefits:
- Good chip resistance (it isn't as hard as a urethane)
- Perfect for a “primer/sealer” over bare metal.
- Etch primers can skipped because of its excellent adhesion and corrosion properties. (although for maximum corrosion protection apply a wash etch under the epoxy)
- Provides good base under plastic body fillers (skip the etch if you plan on using plastic filler over epoxy)
- Epoxy has no isocyanates .

Disadvantages:
- Poor sanding qualities
- Poor filling

Polyester primer (2K)

Polyester is a very specialized primer used in very small amount in most shops across the country. But when it is needed, it does a job like no other. Polyester has a huge solids content and will fill 80 grit scratches in one coat or 36 grit in two or three! Urethane for instance provides about ½ or ¾ mils per coat while polyester can give you as much as 4 to 6! Because of it's high solids, it shrinks very little. It is basically like spraying polyester putty. Look for a manufacture that has a recommendation to apply etch primer under it. I see NO reason to use polyester on a straight panel. It is for use only when you need some serious filling and surfacing.

Benefits:
- VERY high filling
- Low cost

Disadvantages:
- Very high texture
- Harder to sand than a urethane
- Possible need to purchase a large gun to shoot it.

“ISO FREE” (2K)

“ISO FREE” is a urethane type primer but without the harmful isocyanates that a urethane contains.
The problem is ALL refinish products should be used with the same care and concern for your health and others. ISO FREE is like “low tar” cigarettes, don't kid your self, it is still VARY harmful.

Benefits:
- Isocyanate free
- Smooth, easy sanding
- Good filling
Disadvantages:
- You need an etch over bare metal before it.

Basic tips… Etch primers can be skipped on spots of bare metal smaller than a dime or so when using all primers listed.
Most “quality” 2K primers need NO sealer before top coating with bc/cc or SS when applied properly.

Sealers

All RTS or 1K sealers should be reserved to VERY low end jobs to save money. They do NOT offer the benefits of a 2k, PERIOD.

Reasons to use a sealer:

- Makes up for “some” poor preparation
- Provides a uniform color for better coverage when you apply paint.
- Helps with providing a uniform substrate for paint.
- Helps provide a better substrate when painting over a 1K primer.
- Can Help with “covering” poor prior repairs

Under collision repair conditions a shop may use sealers on every job as an “insurance” protection against problems. In a restoration environment where complete panels are primed with a 2K there really is no need to use them.
If you have chosen to use a sealer there now are a few more choices to make. First, you need to decide what kind of sealer to use. As I mentioned in the beginning, RTS or 1k could be used to save money. Why put a 1K sealer over your 2K primer (I hope you are using a 2K primer) then apply a 2K top coat? It is like the old saying, “It's only as strong as it's weakest link”. If you use a 1K sealer in this fashion it is like replacing a link in your tow chain with a nylon tie!

With 2K there are a few options, epoxy and urethane being the most popular. I don't feel that there is a huge difference in the two as far as how they apply or work. Epoxy is more forgiving with sensitive substrates. It really comes down to what you feel more comfortable with. The epoxy has no isos so that would be one reason to choose it.
Now that you have decided what sealer to use you have to decide on what application.
Most sealers give you the option of a “wet on wet” (or very close to it) or a full “barrier coat” application.
The difference being with “wet on wet” the sealer is applied and then allowed a short flash time before the basecoat or SS is applied. A “barrier coat” is where the sealer is applied, then allowed to cure or at the very least to totally flash. This allows the sealer to become a barrier so the solvents from the color coat can't penetrate it and attack the substrate.

The barrier coat procedure allows for he sealer to do MUCH more of what you choose to use a sealer for in the first place. The choice is made taking into account a few factors. How sensitive is the substrate? Or, how aggressive are the solvents in the color coat that you are applying? If it is very hot weather and you are using a slow solvent in the color coat to help it lay out, you may choose to use a sealer because you know that the substrate is sensitive and the slow solvent will attack it.

Well, that is about it for the basics, have fun!

Martinsr,what would be your preferred sandwich on say a body panel stripped to bare metal with no filler that you intend to block? Wash,urethane,and then final paint?And on a panel with filler,etch,urethane and then paint?

Thank you for all the information. I will read it and come back with some more questions.

When it comes to paint. Do I need to think about brand (PPG, etc), type (epoxy, etc), and additives (hardener, etc)? Did I miss anything?

If I go to Herbs Paint and Body, McPaint, or the paint store. I would like to know what to discuss or ask for.

Again, when it comes to doing the painting. It may be better to go with the pro. But I would like to know something about paint, so I don't get water colors.

TIA

BrJr51, you have layed out my favorite ways to do it. I have to say though, I have not done a restoration in a few years and the epoxy over bare metal, then any body fillers, then urethane primer is looking better and better to me.

Oldblue, most any name brand like PPG, DUPont, Sherwin Williams, etc. have good products. There is one particular problem though. Each of these top of the line brands (and most all others) have a low end "value line". You have to be sure you get what you pay for. PPG, has OMNI, DuPont has NASON, and so on. These low end products are "ok" with some being very good and others being junk. You have to be sure you are getting PPG, DuPont , etc. and not the low end lines.

Martinsr,I have been using just PPG epoxy over prepped bare steel(sanded well with 80 grit),then filler,2K primer,and then color.I must say I'm really sold on the epoxy.I haven't done any body panels using this yet,just chassis and engine(no 2K on the engine)but I did do a pedal car for my daughter about 3 years ago and finished it with Concept single stage and it has held up beautifully.Even where the neighbor kid decided to whack it with a hammer a few times.
My reason for asking was that a couple of coats of the epoxy adds quite a bit more to the overall thickness of the paint than I assume the wash or etch. I haven't tried either of them so I can't say how they'd work. I can say that epoxy really seems to stick though.

Yes, I feel Epoxy is THE product for "hard parts". What I mean by that is frames, chassis componants, rad support, that sort of stuff. Wash etch, epoxy prime, top coat with a single stage urethane. That is the best system out there for the buck. No sanding, just three applications of product and the corrosion resistance is super, the durability of the top coat is super, it is just a great system.

But if you have to sand epoxy, my love for it starts to drop. Urethane is SO much easier to work with.

For what it's worth, I visited a couple Maaco's yesterday and agree 100% with MARTINSR that though they carry the same company name, they are like day and night. One acted like I was bothering them by asking too many questions, while the other asked more questions than I did. The latter took me out to their shop and showed me a single stage painted vehicle and then a two stage one. I saw examples of each stage (in progress) my truck would go through from complete paint removal, sheetmetal repair, various stages of priming, etc. They said I can either pick out a paint color from their book or I can give them a paint color or bring in a color to match.

I can also bring the truck in as disassembled as I want, assuming it would still be driveable around their facility.

Though I'll still look around at other places, I at least went away from this one shop feeling pretty good.

As I mentioned in another thread, I don't know if two stage paint will be worth the extra $$, since my truck will not be a show truck.