The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area Engine Shop 1965 283 with manual choke, need help starting please

hello

i am gradually trying to revive my 1965 283/4-speed with manual choke, the truck was sitting for 2 years. i am in the process of replacing the tank so just to get in and out of the garage i have the end of the fuel line submerged in a 2 gallon gas container
(it has worked this way prior with no issues)

the choke cable needs to be replaced so for now i am manually closing the choke, the motor cranks just fine but there is no gas reaching the carb. i disconnected the fuel line from the carb and when i crank the motor i see no fuel coming out of the line??

i am still trying to learn and grasp the basics so please forgive the elementary questions.
any help will be appreciated

thank you

fuel pump could be bad.

when i disconnect the line at the carb and crank the motor i should see fuel spitting out correct? if so can i be pretty sure its the pump?

if so is the pump replacement straight forward or is there something tricky i need to be aware of? like the lever alignment?

also
if fuel supply is dependent on the mechanical fuel pump and cranking, where is the fuel drawn from when the gas pedal is depressed quickly for prime prior to a cold start attempt?

Your question mark placement makes me question whether I should answer or not?

Is there gas in the fuel can? Is this gas in the can fresh fuel? How long ago was this working with no issue?

Cranking the engine should cause fuel to come out of the disconnected fuel line at the carburetor if there is fuel in your gas can. That is if the fuel pump can hold pressure.

The pump exchange is not complicated. Asking about the lever on the pump proves you have read some on the topic & that's good.

I would get at least a 5 gallon can to use as a fuel tank. I've just been through this sort of an ordeal with fuel supply/sending/delivery. The thread could help you if you read through it. I can't find a link to the thread, but I'll try tomorrow. (edit- later today)

Brad

>yes gas is fresh and the 2 gallon tank is filled to capacity with hose submerged fully

>last ran when parked two years ago

so if the pump is working properly it should be able to suck the fuel through a completely dry line from the tank?

thanks

Yes, it should be able to suck fuel - as long as your hose isn't 25 feet long or something.

It will take a LONG time of cranking for the fuel to get there if the lines are completely dry. How long is the length of hose from the fuel pump to the 2 gallon can?

With a freshly installed fuel pump & new gas tank, it took me SEVERAL 12-15 second cranking attempts to get fuel to the carburetor.

(Approximately 6 feet of line from the tank to the fuel pump on my system.)

Brad

yes about 6-8 feet of line.
would it help if i tried manually squirting/priming some fuel into the dry portion of line?

I missed this, but there are several other things I would verify before I worried about getting the truck running and the fuel flowing. You might have already done all of this, but it is a lot easier to err on the side of caution & remind you. Check: oil, check coolant, check battery cables & connections, checked the coil, wiring, checked to see if you are getting spark, set the timing, checked the point gap, maybe...

If all this is already done, make sure the battery is charged up, and try cranking it for several 10-12 Second attempts to see if you get fuel to the carb (you have the line in a bottle, correct?). Maybe pour a small amount of gas down the carb. Does this V8 have multiple carburetors? I have seen some that came that way.

Brad

Do the pre start up prcedure above. Focus on oil circulating, run oil pump with drill or crank motor and observe flow with valve covers off and center dizzy wire disconnected. (don't want it to start). Squirt oil on valve train, change oil and filter first.

As far as fuel, yes, if there is no gas coming out of pump in a 10-15 second flow test with inlet hose in gas can and NO filters, no hose collapse.... it's a bad pump. The pump will squirt quite a good stream each cam cycle. But first just pour some gas in carb and start motor. May have to put hand over throat a be the choke, that's easier.

Regarding your pedal question: The pump fills the carb bowl, the gas pedal operates the butterfly which regulates the venturi vacuum to draw fuel from the bowl. During startup and quick revving, the accelerator pump squirts a shot down the throat. That is also operated by the pedal. When you pour gas in there you are bypassing this operation and liquid gas and fumes trickle into the combustion chamber and fires. It just proves the motor/timing and electrics are probably OK and that fuel delivery is probably the problem.

After the pour test, and you get a new fuel pump, redo your flow test and re-attach line to carb, it should start. If not, report to us. Pour in enough to fire but not flood. Installing new pump is easy as stated. Diaphragm probably "dried" out/cracked. But there may be carb issues also, like fuel residue clogging or deteriorated needle seat rubber, etc. Carb should be rebuilt for sure.

thanks uncle and bart
i did most of whats on your checklist except for the timing and points, i am still trying to learn the basics and that's advanced stuff to me at this point.
prior to seeing your post i tried the following, here is my update

with the feed line disconnected at the carb
i took a large syringe and started priming the line from the tank until i saw gas coming out of the carb feed.
than with the line still disconnected i cranked the motor and saw gas coming out of the carb feed while cranking.
while this works i know its certainly not normal? could this be indicative of a weak fuel pump?

next
i connected the carb line, pumped the gas 5-6 times, sprayed some starting fluid and manually (i need a new choak cable)closed the choak to within about 1/8" gap closure, after repeating this sequence about 4 times i finally got the motor to idle....
however even after letting it run like that for 20 minuts the slightest opening of the choak past the 1/8" closed setting made the motor stall, or if i use the gas pedal i must pump continuously to keep the motor running and the minute i let up it stalls.

so that is where i am at, i got it to run but not properly?

btw bart

thanks for the explanation on the carb mechanics, that's still a grey area for me but it helped to clear things up a bit. i was curious where all the fuel was going during cranking? i was working alone but when i pumped the pedal manually via the linkage i could see no evidence of fuel entering the carb

also its a rochester 2bbl carb, it was rebuilt a few years back, installed but barely used and has been sitting for the last 2 years

also
i need to install a new choke cable, should the screws be set in the open or closed position? and whats proper position for "closed" completely closed or a small 1/8" gap?

(i could use a tutorial in using the choke but i will leave that for another question)

thank you

OK lets get our terms matching: The port on the fuel pump from the gas tank is the inlet. The port to the carb is the outlet. The fitting on the carb from the pump is the carb inlet.
Let's cut to the chase here. This is direct but not meant to be disrespectful.
1. Did you get a new pump or not?
2. You said no fuel from pump outlet. Is that still the case?
3. Now that motor starts, let's get back to the fuel pump. There is only ONE way to test without equipment, not a syringe or any other way. Hose from pump inlet into a gas container. NO FILTERS, RIGHT? Disconnect the line at the carb inlet and crank motor and let fuel squirt into a jar with center wire off distributor (so it won't start). See if pump puts out a good healthy pulse and starts to fill jar in 10-15 or more seconds (count them off to yourself to see how long it takes to start pumping). After it looks like it is pumping good...STOP and wait a minute or two. Crank again, it should immediately start squirting same volume.
That is the next step. If you did get a new pump, test it also. Same way. You need to see what a good pump looks like for your career.
4. I understand motor does not run well or stay running. YOU MUST be sure that fuel is getting from the 2 gal container to the carb inlet. Then you can continue with this diagnosis. The pedal has nothing to do with the operation of the fuel pump. The choke has nothing to do with the fuel pump. Forget those items until you report you have a good pump test.
5. Your motor runs OK as far as worrying about timing or electrical, yet. The stalling, choke being closed and pumping pedal are all indications of lack of fuel to combustion chamber. Before talking about the carb we need to know if it is getting good supply of fuel BY TESTING USING THE ABOVE FLOW TEST METHOD. I do not understand if you have done that and what the results are. I don't care about the motor running/stalling/pedal pumping/choke stuff yet. You are close, but no cigar.

Answer all questions and report what happens after test.
FYI: Rebuilding a carb and then let it sit for two years does not mean it does not need rebuilt again. Parts need to be "wetted" and "cycled" to stay viable. Carbs will form nasty Zinc white death deposits and fuel residue deposits after evaporation. (called varnish). So plan on rebuild in the future.
Thanks.

1)no i did not replace the fuel pump yet

2)with the carb inlet disconnected when cranking i do notice what appears to my untrained eye a reasonably healthy flow of fuel BUT as outlined earlier i was only able to achieve that after manually injecting/priming fuel into the line from the tank end.
(there is one filter at the carb inlet though)

i did wait and repeat the sequence and got the same result, i will try again tomorrow and see if the fuel still flows after an overnight rest.

thanks

A "healthy flow" is going to be more like a gush of fuel from the outlet.

OK good. Be sure to try without priming in any way. Some carbs have built-in filters if that is what you mean. If there is an inline separate filter, do not test thru that filter. Are you still using the gas can, not the gas tank? Hope so. Tomorrow it is. The flow should be a near full hose full, not a trickle, not weak. It will pulse as you crank. If battery is low, it will affect the flow some and it will take longer to begin flowing. Be sure you are using genuine fuel hose in the gas can or it will collapse and you won't know it. If you see a good flow, hook it back up to carb WITHOUT any inline filter and start motor. If carb has a filter inside the inlet port, replace it. See how it runs. Be sure gas can level stays up. After motor warms up a little, it should not need any choke at all but if it needs some choke to run, see if it will run and idle and rev that way. It should only take zero to three pedal pumps before cranking to start depending if cold or warm. Some carbs need one quick pump to set. We will get Carbking to advise once you see a good flow to carb. Give the carb numbers and what it says, like "2 Jet" or ?
I assume this motor ran well after carb rebuild and before storage....."a few years back". That is a nice motor.

pd8385 p5861- here's a short video of fuel pumping into a clear bottle at the carburetor inlet (line removed; placed in bottle): new fuel pump.

Watching the fuel flow may help explain the "pulse" of fuel Chief bartamos is describing.

Brad

A picture is worth a thousand words. A video is worth a thousand pictures. Chief

ok so here is the next report
today i attempted another start, here are the observations

> with filters removed it took about two 30 second cranks to see fuel flow from the carb inlet, with one in-line filter installed just before the carb i got the same result. fuel looked like healthy "garden hose pulsing"

>i connected the line back to the carb inlet, manually moved the choke to about 1/8' gap, pumped 3-5 times and cranked-
motor did not start

>i sprayed starting fluid into the carb, reset choke to about 1/8" gap and cranked....
it attempted to start but quit

>i repeated above with starting fluid 3 more times before it finally stayed running

>i let it run for about 30 minutes, the choke is still gaped at only about 1/8" , the minute i try to open the choak even slightly it stalls, i could rev the motor by repeatedly pumping the pedal but as soon as i let up on the pedal it stalls

>after it stalls its been 50/50 that i can just turn the key to start it, half the time i need to use the starting fluid again.

NOTE-all the while the choke is set to about 3/16" gap which seems to be the sweet spot

the carb is a rochester 2bbl, it was rebuilt a while back, minimally used and than sat for another two years. i dont know a thing about carbs or choking techniques so this is a learning experience

i purchased the truck a while back and life got in the way so to be honest i never got to really enjoy the truck running well, just fighting to get it started and moving it from storage spot to storage spot, hopefully that will change

thanks for sticking with me on the thread

btw-
i saw the video, yes the flow looks similar

Please, please, please tell me if you are taking in fuel from the gas can or the gas tank, with all these tests? I assume you are taking from can. I assume you know NOT to use the gas tank until it is replaced or thoroughly cleaned. I do not like the 30 second timing for fuel flow. If you are taking fuel from a gas can and taking 30 seconds, you need a new pump!!!! Also, you will need to rebuild the carburetor. These are the two baseline items to get done before you fiddle any more. I think you have at least two problems at once. Pump and Carb. Try NEW pump first and see what difference it makes. Get a new pump. The manual pull choke that you keep talking about is so simple of an item with very simple usage, it is not worth discussing yet. You are needing it WAY too much. You will hardly use it when all else gets fixed. All it does is enrich the fuel mixture by blocking air/changing vacuum for a short period during cold starts/cold whether. Fuel does not evaporate/vaporize/atomize well in cold air. Once the motor gets hot, in a few minutes, the choke is opened all the way. If you are in a hurry and need to get movin', you can open it gradually on the road.

Don't get anything but a stock pump. No performance pumps! Replace the inline filter, replace the carb cartridge filter inside inlet (large nut).
Proper pump part numbers:
O'Reilly's M16058
Autozone 40254
Or equivalents, you are 4.6 L motor.
3.5 PSI, two port pump.

i purchased a new under bed tank from early classic enterprises which will eventually be installed, but for now............

the fuel is being drawn from a 5 gallon tank placed in the bed (front/drivers side) so its probably about 6-7' of hose from can to pump.

is it worth rebuilding the carb again, this will be the third time, once by me and once by the PO. is the Rochester 2bbl a good or problematic carb or is there another replacement which will be better?

as far as the pump goes will an AC delco be ok also

thanks

1.Get any correct new pump from any store.
2.Replace both filters as stated.
3.Be sure it's fuel hose you are using.

Then try starting and see how it runs with the carb not rebuilt. You can set a can right next to the front wheel, passenger side, on the ground, with a shorter hose, if you want to.

The carb is a good carb in my opinion. Everybody has their stories about which is better. I have had good luck with Rochester. I would have to put a four barrel on it if it was mine....and headers... with duals...good way to get a few horses and tones without breaking into the motor or the bank.

I think you said this 5 gal can was clean.
Did motor smoke or backfire thru carb?
Assume you are using brand new gas from a gas station.

all I am going to say is throw that starting fluid away. If it won't run on gas it won't run on ether. You keep shooting ether down its throat it won't be a good engine for long.

Evaluating the Rochester 2-Jet carb:

(Opinion) The Rochester 2-Jet (also known as 2-G) is one of the very finest 2 barrel carbs ever built at any time, anywhere, and regardless of cost!

I don't like the long time to get gas to the carb, but first things first.

BEFORE AGAIN REBUILDING THE CARB:

There are 3 screws on the carburetor that NEED ATTENTION:

Two of the screws are called idle mixture screws, the third is called a curb idle screw.

The idle mixture screws control the amount of idle fuel which is delivered to the engine. These are pointed screws located in the cast iron throttle body and have springs around to screws to prevent them from loosening due to vibration.

One by one, GENTLY turn these screws IN (clockwise) until they are LIGHTLY SEATED or snug. DO NOT TIGHTEN! Now turn them out (counter-clockwise) one and one-half turns. These will need attention later, as this is out too far, but lets get it running and then adjust.

The third screw (the curb idle screw) is probably located in the throttle arm (the arm to which the linkage from the footfeet is attached). At some point in the travel of this screw, the throttle arm should begin to rotate. Turn the screw until you observe this rotation.

Now:

(1) turn the screw OUT (counter-clockwise) until the arm stops rotating
(2) turn the screw IN (clockwise) one-half turn past where the arm begins rotating
(3) acquire an old ketchup or mustard squeeze bottle. Empty the bottle and clean it well
(4) fill the bottle with fresh fuel
(5) there is a vent in the very top of the carburetor in the general area of the choke.
(6) fill the carburetor bowl using fuel from the squeeze body
(7) feed a teaspoon of fuel to the engine as you have been doing (this will not be necessary later) and start the engine. It MAY now idle at a higher speed, this is good.
(8) after 10 seconds or so, gently begin to push in the choke.

Jon.

today i will time exactly how long the fuel takes to start pumping and report back

i will try to familiarize myself with the screws and parts carbking mentioned.
just curious-if the motor ran ok at one point and the screws were not touched what would cause them to go out of adjustment?

(5) "there is a vent in the very top of the carburetor in the general area of the choke"..........
is this that brass tube cut on an angle?
and am i correct in understanding i should squeeze about 4-6 ounces of fuel inside that tube the equivalent of an old ketchup or mustard squeeze bottle?

(7) "feed a teaspoon of fuel to the engine as you have been doing"..........
meaning prime the carb again with gas not starting fluid?

thank you

(5) Yes, don't know how many ounces, fill it full.
(7) Some like, some dislike starting fluid. If used CORRECTLY, I see no problem in using to start an engine that will not start otherwise, but yours has eventually been starting. We can argue about the merits? of starting fluid in another thread.

Jon.

carbking, trying to learn the points you mentioned

you wrote
"The third screw (the curb idle screw) is probably located in the throttle arm (the arm to which the linkage from the footfeet is attached). At some point in the travel of this screw, the throttle arm should begin to rotate. Turn the screw until you observe this rotation"

is this the screw that makes contact with the cam like part on the linkages? if so i see the screw contact points vary depending whether the choke is open or closed.
from which position should the adjustment you described be made

thanks

Choke should be fully open (vertical).

What we are trying to do here is to set the curb idle too high, to see if the carburetor will function on the main metering circuit. If so, then the idle may be reduced to a more normal setting, using this screw.

Jon.

I was of the opinion to get the fuel supply fixed for sure before tweaking carb so that we could see how it ran with not tweaking. With tweaking, we can not quantify how much was the pump and how much was the carb to the problem. Albeit the goal is to fix it all, I like to learn and tweak my advice for the next guy. Jumping around is OK I guess because we will get it running. The poster is an Engineer, like me, and wants to learn and try and get results. But troubleshooting fuel has to be done from the tank backwards.
It is always great to learn from CarbKing at any stage.(the filling of the bowl thru the tube is really neat to know as well as the curb adjust) thanks Jon.
I hope someday he gets a new fuel pump and new filters before I go crazy.
Maybe I'm wrong and it's just the carb. I fear we will never know which. If he messes up the carb, then gets a new pump, then it still won't start/runs bad....then it's a Chinese fire drill.

FWIW Replacing the fuel pump on a small block or big block Chevy is not the same thing as replacing a pump on an Inline 6 not by a long shot. Please read and understand the procedure before attempting such as this will save lots of heartache.

An engine running only with the choke mostly on tells me two things.
1. Massive vacuum leak
2. Idle circuits in the carb stopped up.

Tim - I tend to agree, although a third posibility is the idle mixture screws way too lean. By setting both the idle mixture screws richer than normal, and setting the curb idle sufficiently high to run on the main circuit; we should be able to eliminate some variables.

If the engine will run on the main circuit without choke, we eliminate ignition and pump. If not, then other things need to be addressed prior to again rebuilding the carb.

So, if the engine runs on the main circuit, then the OP can gradually reduce the idle to where it would be on the idle circuit. If the engine will now idle on the idle circuit without choke, the problem was adjustment. Else, the posibility of a vacuum leak, or clogged idle circuit.

Bart - I still don't like the long time to get fuel to the carb, and the pump still may be weak (or a bad lobe on the cam); but since it does eventually get fuel to the carb, and the video appears to show sufficient flow, the whole problem may just be carb adjustment.

Unfortunately, this entire thread has been chasing symptoms, rather than a systematic approach to diagnosis. The age-old rules of engine diagnosis:

(1) Compression check
(2) Ignition test
(3) Carburetion test

Actually, (3) could be divided into 3a (fuel delivery test) and 3b (carburetor). And somewhere in the mix, steady-state vacuum readings would be useful.

Jon.

Jon, the video is not his truck, it's an example from Uncle Brad to show him what it should look like. He did say flow looks similar but 30 seconds is too long.

Bart - I surely missed that the video was Uncle Brad's. You may be right about the pump.

Jon.

and you may be right about the carb. Builder and Uncle Brad had it all covered before me.
p5861: Watch the many videos on SBC fuel pump replacement, then go for it. I see you were talking about this 6-7 years ago and hadn't posted for 6 years. Welcome back! A new pump will not hurt.

i was unavailable to do any work today, however i will accurately time the delivery next and report. but when it was pumping it looked strong like the video was demonstrating.

if it ran ok when last parked 2 years ago what would cause the carburetor screws to go out of adjustment? and is 2 years of inactivity enough to mess up a carburetor that was otherwise ok?

also is there something i should be looking for in terms of vacuum leaks like you guys have been mentioning?

btw bart
where are the videos you mentioned?

if i were to take a video or picture is it possible to attach it to a thread?

thanks

if it ran ok when last parked 2 years ago what would cause the carburetor screws to go out of adjustment? and is 2 years of inactivity enough to mess up a carburetor that was otherwise ok?
They don't go out of adjustment. Gasoline in the carb evaporates and leaves solid deposits called varnish and other solids. By opening the idle screws as Carb King suggests these deposits might be, can be, hopefully will be sucked out. The idle circuits will then be clean and the adjustment returned to normal.
FWIW rubber products, Gaskets, seals and the like tend to dry out and crack rot shrink flake off and leak over time. Six months siting inactive can cause all of the above and more.