The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area Engine Shop Uh oh! Need some advice about a no-start

Just went to the post office, and when I came back out and hopped in the truck ('51 3100 w/ 235 engine), I hit the foot starter, and it just kind of grunted. After that, it wouldn't make any noise at all. Hit it a few times with my hammer to see if there was a stuck solenoid, but no help, so I coasted backwards and popped the clutch. Before I order a new starter, or rebuild it, I'm ordering a new starter switch that sits on top of the starter motor. Anybody have any opinions or experience with this "all of a sudden" type failure on these? It's never missed a start in the almost 2 years I've owned it. BTW, it's 12v) Thanks in advance for any advice or suggestions. Lee

Note in the picture that in addition to the switch on top of the starter there is also a bendix which can be replaced separately. However with the symptom you describe a good inspection of the switch is in order. Be sure the foot starter linkage is fully depressing the switch.

http://chevy.oldcarmanualproject.com/shop/1948_51truck/51ctsm1218.htm

How old is the battery? Have you had it checked?

51 bolt -The battery is fairly new, and the gauge is showing a good charge. I checked the connections not long ago, also. Forty9- Thanks for the page, I'll have to get my manual out and check that out closely. While I was at the post office, I put the truck in neutral and got out and manually pushed the starter button down, but it didn't do anything. I'll check the linkage tomorrow, too, though. I went ahead and ordered the switch at 3pm today, and they said it would be here tomorrow, so we'll see what happens, and I'll let you all know what's up. thanks!

Throwing new parts at a problem until it gets fixed can get expensive. There are less expensive ways to troubleshoot.

For example: turning the contact within the switch 180° may solve the problem. Of course, checking for a sloppy linkage would be the first order of business.

Yes but it keeps our dreams alive.
The path to Chevy Knowledge is long and fraught with many breakdowns and repairs.
The newly converted and even those who grew up in the Tradition but only watched from a beer stool want to believe we too can take part in the rites of Truckdom.
Thus the church of F.L.A.P.S. which we find on the corner of every mall and converted local Mom and Pop's grocery stores across the country, welcomes each of us in offering us a chance to act like we know what we're doing.

Yep.

There may be cheaper ways to troubleshoot, but since I'm not aware of any of them, I'll start with the cheapest and easiest parts first, and see what happens. And how would YOU go about checking for sloppy linkage? I can't find it anywhere in the shop manual. And I'm still wondering how this post got stuck in the engine section instead of electrical. Anyway, I put the new switch in and still no luck, even when I push the button down manually, which eliminates the sloppy linkage as my main problem. Going back out after I life weights and run my miles to check the wiring from the ammeter. I had a bad one earlier this year and replaced it. My volt/ohm meter was up at the shop where I work on my bike, so now I can start the ohming out game.

I think the only time a hammer is useful is when there is a sticking solenoid. Your starter doesn't have one.

I realized that as soon as I got home and looked it up in the shop manual. Even though I didn't know it down at the post office, I think I felt better after I hit it.

Unfortunately, it sounds like it's time to pull the starter and bench check it. See if you can turn it by hand. Could be it just gave up the ghost! Most people leave the 6V starter installed when they convert to 12V and over time it may have just failed. Don't know what the cost would be to rebuild for 12V.

http://chevy.oldcarmanualproject.com/shop/1948_51truck/51ctsm1221.htm

There is alot to think about when it comes to this issue. Read this, then place the order for the new starter, or rebuild the old one:

http://devestechnet.com/Home/Flywheel

There is just a little more to it than just going to a 12v starter.

Of course the easy answer is to buy/rebuild a 6v starter using same bendix to flywheel geometry that exists now.

This is really one of the most misunderstood issues we face as hobbyists working together to get this all squared away.

6 volts uses TWICE the amperage of a 12 volt system. This is good for us over the longer haul because they had to make wiring, windings, everything capable of handling twice the current of what we use today. To a point of course. Anything requiring close scrutiny of the Power formula doesn't pass muster, however the starter is a good example of what works famously with a 12 volt system. Reason is because applying 12 volts to the 6 volt starter is MOMENTARY. You can run your 6 volt starter on 12 volts forever as long as you do not run the starter more than is necessary to get it running.

So please make sure your systems are in good shape and you can use that FLYWHEEL that is made for the 6 volt systems, and not worry about it AT ALL. Best to just get a replacement that is the exact same as the one you took out keeping the above in mind.

If you are going to keep your truck for a while, having a new/rebuilt starter is a good idea. If it does not solve your problem, you have a good spare.

Otherwise, even though you have "checked" most of the following items, carefully adhering to these suggestions will eliminate other items:

Note: when the engines and other starting parts are warm, the engine often have more "starting resistance" - at the margin, starting when warm will become difficult/impossible.

1. Good cables from the battery - BOTH the positive lead and the negative lead (1 gauge to 00 gauge, copper). Smaller cables will cause starting failure in a marginal system.

2. And, clean/shiny contacts for the cable-connections - clean metal, protected with conductive, anti-oxidant grease ( Kopr-Kote, Kopr-Shield (no longer listed by Eastwood), or NAPA: BK 7652569). Check these out, clean-them until all contact surfaces are shiny, then put on the conductive grease.

Next to consider (although, I now do this first on my trucks):
3. From the battery: run the positive cable directly to the starter (the normal arrangement) AND a negative cable to a starter-to-clutch-housing bolt (not the normal arrangement). Be sure to still use other frame-to-block ground cables (and maybe a head-to-firewall ground cable).

NOTE: unless you have 6v jumper cables, normal/modern jumper cables are inadequate.

Then, rebuild the starter (or have it rebuilt); or, buy a new/rebuilt starter.

Oh yeah: the worse case scenario is that your engine is worn out and needs rebuilding - such engines often get harder to start when warmed-up. If all components in your starting system are good, it should start even a worn out engine.

Thanks very much for all the in depth answers! Going out there right now to start my trouble shoot check off list. I'll let you know what I find.

Update and questions-> First, thanks everybody for trying to help. You all raised some good points, such as 6v or 12v if I have to replace.

Deve- thanks for that page. I printed it off to read, and it will help.

Per the update, I went out with my meter just to make sure the battery is ok (it is), then checked for power coming in from the ammeter/key switch, which is still good, too. (Truck died last spring, and it turned out to be a bad wire between the key switch at the ammeter connection and the starter/ballast). Ballast is good, too. And I tried again to hit the actual starter button on the starter, by-passing the foot pedal and linkage, no go. So here are my questions, then...
A) How do you tell if a starter is 6v or 12v if there is no tag on it? http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL1373/13685773/24611517/411608165.jpg
B) What is the nail looking thing in the pic of the drive housing? Is that supposed to be there, or did I somehow pick up a nail that may have done something. (I've changed a lot of different starters, but never noticed anything like that before, and since I can't find any sign of an outer hole or mounting bushing, I'm stumped as to what it is and what it's for, if it actually belongs there. http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL1373/13685773/24611517/411608164.jpg
C) Is there really a way to adjust the starter linkage, had it been that? It looks to me that all joints are pinned. I don't see anything that could be adjusted. I also now understand that the linkage puts the starter drive shaft and pinion into the correct position for the start. Would this cause a no start if something there were not engaging, even if the starter switch was manually pushed down? (doesn't seem like it, but thought I'd ask)
D) Since my go-to electrical motor gal has retired, I'm not sure who I could take it to for a rebuild. Is it possible for someone who is mechanically minded to safely rebuild one of these (after testing it), or should I just bite the bullet and send for one? OR- how to spot a good rebuilder of old stuff without being sorry I didn't just get one?? After years of seeing what cheap foreign rebuilders consider acceptable work, I fear paying the $150, not to mention the $125 core charge plus shipping it back to Classicparts, while I wait. (Too bad this didn't happen 2 weeks ago when I sold my Millermatic 251 welder instead of a few days before the first of the month, when my Geezer Goldmine (pension check) comes in. Ok, then, I'd like to go out and pull that starter, but I'm going to wait to hear from you all for your opinions and sage advice. Thanks again for all the help, guys. I really appreciate it. Lee

B. Nail - is the timing mark pointer. It is useful in statically setting initial timing.

Thanks, tclederman. I took a look at the pic after I posted it (my phone is pretty minimal), and realized that it wasn't a nail and was probably there for a purpose. but thanks for confirming it.

D)

Try calling NAPA
They had a 6volt rebuilt starter on the shelf for my 50

...pic...

A)

https://www.stovebolt.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/topic/164382/gonew/1.html

Count your flywheel teeth

showme it seems to me that starters that have a band going around the end of the starter case to cover the holes to protect the starter brushes like the one in DADS50 picture is a 6volt. And starter without the band and no holes is a 12 volt. That's how I do it when there's no tag on the side of the case. Yours look's like a 12 volt to me. Please fellow stovebolters correct me if I am wrong.

Thanks.

The best way I know how to tell is the flywheel. 4 teeth per inch = 6v, 5 teeth per inch = 12v.

Yes, counting the teeth on the flywheel will confirm 6v vs 12v. [flywheel]

But, it is not so easy checking for a 6v vs a 12v starter. The number of teeth are the same on 6v and 12v starters. Last summer, I caught a rebuilder (who knew better) using a 12v drive gear on a 6v starter rebuild. He said the number of teeth were correct for 6v. I showed him the parts book.

If I am correct, will counting teeth on the flywheel confirm the voltage of the starter that is being used with that flywheel (counting the teeth on the flywheel confirms that the flywheel was made for 6v or 12v)?

Am I incorrect about there being the same number of teeth on the 6v and 12 starters? If I am correct, counting the teeth on the flywheel will not confirm which voltage starter was being used with that flywheel?

Good point

The link has a post from HRL

Number of teeth are the same on the drive gear but the pitch is different

He has a starter in his truck now. 6v flywheel, 6v starter unless someone was very artful at changing out incompatible gears.

Besides, if he has a 6v flywheel, get the correct replacement which would be for a 139 tooth flywheel. Its how you know what to get at the auto parts for sure.

It bolts up, it just doesn't work properly. I do not think we are at the point yet where the wrong parts are out in the rebuild stream as such a normal thing. You ask for a 6v starter you should get one. Is this a new thing where we need to be concerned that our new replacement isn't the same as the old?

The starter gears are not interchangeable. Unless you are a machinist, or there is a how-to article somewhere, only a few people would know how to go about this. The point is, the OP is probably not one of them and to confuse the issue just confuses people who rely on NAPA or anywhere you can still get a 6v starter.

To answer your question.. You would know because the starter wouldnt engage properly. If he has started his truck EVER with the starter he has, then its either a real 6v starter, or like you say, a one in a million chance that someone figured out how to change those totally different (shaft size, etc) gears.

Thanks for all the replies and info. Deve, I called NAPA yesterday afternoon, and they said they could have a 6v starter in on Monday afternoon. The good news is that it's less than half the price of what ClassicParts, Chev's of the 40's or anyone else I usually get my parts from ($62, with no shipping or core charge, or even core return, plus no shipping or return shipping on my core). The bad news is that I still have to go out and pull the starter and flywheel cover to verify the tooth count to make sure I really have a 6v. Here's something I forgot to mention, and that is that my truck has a '56 235 engine. I spent the afternoon til dark working on my '03 Indian's carb, so I'm going out right now to pull the starter and measure the flywheel teeth. But this last round of comments has me wondering- is there a way to actually tell if a starter is 6v or 12v if they're not tagged? Seems I read somewhere that the teeth on the gears were a little different, in that one had teeth that were more coarse, or finer, or something?? I'll have to re-check as to where, exactly, that I read that, but somewhere in the last few days I've read that. Anyway, I don't want to put something on there that will mess it up, although I read that you can use a 6v starter on either a 6 or 12v flywheel. Correct me if I got that wrong. Lee

When you pull the starter you may find markings on the back side. Also be sure to take it with you to NAPA. The drive gear will be fully exposed and you can eyeball it for any differences from the replacement. Anyone know if a 12V bendix can be used with a 6V starter? Could be another option.

I will attempt to explain what I know about this in one post.

The 139 tooth flywheel will ONLY accept a 6 volt starter. Since the gears are not interchangeable between the 6 and 12 volt versions, and you will get grinding, resistance, and uneven rotation with the wrong one, you must know the number of teeth on your flywheel. 139 teeth = 4 teeth per inch while 168 teeth = 5 teeth per inch. The pitch of the teeth on the starter is different to accommodate this. You just don't want to get the wrong one and its ALL based on the flywheel.

Now, the reason its a GOOD thing if you have a 6 volt flywheel even when converting to 12 volts is because 6 volts requires TWICE the current as a 12 volt system so the wiring, windings, everything about that 6 volt starter is beefier to handle the extra current. Since they over-engineered this particular starter, you 12 volt guys can benefit. BUT, the reason you hear everyone say "Do not spin the starter for long periods of time" is due to the Higher voltage creating more heat inside the motor. This has to do with 12 volts being twice the wattage (power formula). If you run the starter a normal amount of time it will last exactly the same amount of time on 12 volts.

You know you have a 6 volt starter if the teeth on the flywheel say you do. The only possible exception is someone cobbling together a 12 volt drive gear in an attempt to use a 6 volt starter on the 12 volt flywheel. This is not a mainstream thing and although of course it can be done, its highly unlikely you have one like that.

I know this is confusing. So do this:

1) Check your flywheel. 6 volt ring gear or 12 volt?
2) Order the appropriate starter. If it has 4 teeth per inch, you need a 6 volt starter. If its 5 teeth per inch, you need a 12 volt starter. Everyone should know the number of teeth on their flywheel because it will make your life so much easier when on the side of the road needing a new starter.

I guess for me, the problem with looking at the starters part number would be if by chance someone did a modification to it. Then of course since NAPA wants your old starter, you can look at the gear and see if they look the same too. You are doing fine!

BTW, many people with the newer style 235's have 6 volt flywheels. There was no reason to get another flywheel or starter and saved them money. So you just don't know what you have until you do the inspection.

Sure looks like a 12 volt starter to me on showme's truck. It will be interesting to see what he finds out. I've been wrong before, we'll see.

Yeah, he might find he as a 168 tooth ring gear. I am anxiously awaiting the verdict myself!

Checked yesterday, and there are 4 teeth per inch, so it's a 6v, which is good, because that's what I ordered from NAPA. It should be in about 1:30 today. Got the old starter out and on my bench, but that's as far as I got, due to an unexpected nap when I got in. (It reached 90* yesterday, and a 30 minute 'rest' turned into a 2 1/2 hour 'sleep', instead. Knocked out my workout and run, too. ) But, now at least I know what I have. One glitch, though minor, is that when I pulled the top bolt to the starter, the whole bolt came out, as the nut didn't break loose before the bolt did. Now I need to figure out how to get that loosened up and off before I put it back on. Due to full threads on both sides of the nut, I'm trying to figure out how to get a bite on the bushing side, larger threads, without screwing them up to take the nut off the starter side of the bolt. Wood in the bench vise? (Soaking it in PB Blaster now). I don't guess using thread-locker on the bolt when I put it back in is a good idea, is it? Anyway, I'll let you all know how it goes after I get the starter this afternoon. And, thanks again, everybody. Couldn't have done it without you!

The end of the stud with the threads, if there is enough room you can double nut it. Put two nuts on the threads and tighten them against each other. Make them tight enough that the single nut on the other end will brake loose before the double nuts. Then breaks the double nuts loose from each other, and screw them off. Clear as mud, hope I explained it well enough.
Or just take the stud with the nut and just screw it back in like it was a bolt to hold the starter back on.

Well, now what?? I picked up the starter awhile ago, brought it home (got the nut off easily with a little PB Blaster), put on the new starter and... NOTHING! Not a sound, not a click, nothing. So, it looks like it's not the starter after all. (Hope NAPA will take their starter back.) I had power down there, so I don't know what the hell it is, unless the key switch has shot craps on me. So, that's where it is at this point. I've got at least one old key switch in my 'goody boxes' that came with the truck, but seems to me if they're not in the truck, they're probably not good. I am just scratching my head on this one.

The key has nothing to do with the starter turning over. The key can be off and the starter should still turn over the engine. If you completely remove the small blue wire from the starter switch on top of the starter and isolate it; even with the key in "off" the starter will turn over the engine when the foot starter is pushed. Are you sure that you have both voltage and ground to the starter? Many guys run the negative battery cable directly to the lower starter mounting bolt. All that's needed is a +12v at the starter switch post and battery negative to the starter. Try a jumper cable directly from the neg battery post to the lower starter mounting bolt (wire brush it first) and see what happens. Tranny in neutral!

Hi showme, They first test I would do is turn on the headlights and then push the starter pedal.( Key on or off no difference) If the headlights go out it means that you have a bad battery, or bad cables, or bad connections. If the headlights stay on when starter pedal pushed to the floor it would indicate bad/ loose connections or bad starter. Have fun Brian

Forty9- thanks for that advice, I'll try jumping a ground to it. And, yep, you are right, and I can't believe I didn't think about that (the starter pedal works regardless of key position- how many times have I tried starting it a few times, but forgot to turn the key on? Very many!) But thanks for the reminder.

And thank you, too, hippy, I'd never heard of that procedure, but I'll sure try it out tomorrow morning.

I've got my quarterly doctors appointment tomorrow morning (did I mention that I have 24/7 headaches from the injury that put me on disability? Painkillers 3 times daily, and a doctors bill every 3 months to acquire them. SO! I was a happy boy as I put that new starter in, and it slid right in there, so even the 87* heat didn't dampen my mood. Until I hit the starter pedal. Then I slowly developed one of those bad headaches which sort of puts the whole day in a purple funk. I've been listless ever since. Will report back tomorrow. Thanks again for your help. Lee

Get healthy, then work on truck