The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area Engine Shop engine that ran fine will no longer start

hi.

1957 6 cyl.

driveway project; have not taken it out on the road.

truck has always started over the past several months that I owned it.
one day I was revving the engine and then it sputtered and stalled.
have not been able to start it since.

checked carb - it is not flooded and is getting gas.

tried starting fluid - still will not start.

check plugs. they were fouled a bit (I changed them when I first got the truck), so I cleaned them - still will not start.

engine cranks fine, just won't start.

other than me revving the engine nothing was changed.

Any ideas on where to go from there?

thanks in advance.

Points and condenser is a good place. Also check the cap while its open. I have had points on these engines actually break in half.

Something in the distrutor...

Check to see if the distributor is turning and/or remove the valve cover to see if the valves are moving. A sudden stop like that can be a stripped timing gear.
Jerry

thanks for the advice.

I will start with the distributor.

I had previously replaced the cap and rotor and wires, so they are all good.

the points and condenser look ancient, so i will replace them.

question: on the inside of the distributor there is a place where the points and condenser wire clip attach. but, I do not see an adjustment of any kind to loosen that attachment place so that the wires can be removed or can be tightened to keep them on. I tried yanking on them (thinking they might just be a pressure fit) but they are on there good. How is this attachment place supposed to work?

thanks

Look on the outside of the distributor housing. Some models have a round, slotted nut that requires a special tool to loosen/tighten it. A field-expedient tool can be made by grinding a slot in the blade of a flat-tip screwdriver.
Jerry

You did not say if your drawing a spark at the plugs?

Plugs were fouled? Oil, Gas, carbon, other?

I grab the wires/clips free without breaking them, but they are not going back on....no room

took a pic.

the tip of the screwdriver on the left side of the pic is up against the attachment point - like a flat metal round screw end.

looks like a screw that runs through a black plastic piece on the inside of the distributor and through a black plastic piece on the outside of the distributor - on the outside there was a nut.

I do not see anyway to loosen the inside of the bolt.

I found a set of points (forgot I had them) and will try them if I can get them attached.

[IMG]http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/hplacefb/IMG_0540.jpg[/IMG]

Like Jerry said, there is a round nut INSIDE the outside of the distributors phenolic piece. Its covered with a nut and a terminal plate so you cant see it until you remove those. Using a small screwdriver and some WD40, work that round nut out just a little. THAT is your adjustment.

I looked as suggested; I am missing it somehow.



using the pic I posted as a reference can you point out where it is?

thanks

The round "nut" screwed onto this post - the "nut" is inside the bakelite plastic piece on the outside of the distributor.

thanks!

now I understand what was meant.

still won't start.

replaced the points. not sure how to set the gap. even if the gap was wrong, would it still start?

regardless, how does one set the gap, and to what?

what next?

thanks

I removed the valve cover, tried to start the engine, and I could see the engine parts moving.

the plugs were fouled with what I think was carbon - dry back stuff. a litte sandpaper and it came off easily.

how can I tell if I am drawing a spark at the plugs (sorry if this is a stupid question...).


thanks

Do you have a Shop Manual or an Owner's/Operator's Manual?

Point Adjustment (wrong year Shop Manual but it should be OK)
Point Adjustment - 1957 Owner's Manual

I don't have the shop manual. those links are great. thanks. I will take a look.

Test spark with inline spark tester between the plug and plug wire.

Or a spare plug on the plug wire with threads touched to ground. Hold by an insulated handle pliers.

Or a small Philips screw driver in the plug wire shaft held about a 1/8 inch off the engine block.

While someone cranks engine look for spark.

thanks for posting that.

could have used one of those today....

depending on how long this issue goes on for I might make myself one.

thanks again

thanks.

I will give that a try and report back.

to test if there is a spark I went to harbor freight and bought their

Inline Ignition Spark Checker
Item #69014

used it on the 1957 engine on 3 of the 6 plugs - NO lights on the tester when cranking.

so, test result = no lights on tester when cranking = no spark.

wondering if it was a defective unit I used it on a 1977 6 cyl truck - it HAD lights on tester when cranking, so the unit is good.

so, if there is no spark, what next? test the coil?

thanks in advance

Showing no spark at all as stated, you have a distributor issue or a coil issue.
The distributor points provide a make/break switch to pulse the coil on and off.
The wire running from the distributor to the coil should show the voltage going up and down as the engine cranks over. If it is not going up and down then follow the tips provide on where to look at the points and distributor parts.

You can also check for spark on top of coil or center of distributor for cap, rotor.

at this point the distributor cap, rotor, condensor, points and wires have all been replaced.

I also rewired the connection from the firewall to the coil, and from the coil to the distributor (wires and wire ends looked original... in a bad way).

so, only thing left is the coil. i ordered one online, should arrive this week. I will report back.

thanks to all for the help and advice so far.

When the new coil doesn't work, come on back for some circuit-tracing advice. Shotgunning parts at a problem rarely, if ever works. Experiencing sudden, catastrophic coil failure is about as likely as finding a chicken with lips.
Jerry

I'd also make sure the distributor shaft turns when the crank turns...

thanks for the hint, I have verified that the distributor shaft moves when the engine cranks.

I have not looked at chickens a lot, so I will take you on your word regarding their lips

I agree that 'just' throwing parts at a problem does not always make sense. but in this case the reason for changing the parts (and the coil) is that they needed changing out anyway - all looked ancient and problems waiting to happen. I would post pics, but I think you know what I mean.

I had changed the plug wires, cap, rotor, and plugs some months back, but never got around to the points and condenser (so I just did them).

so, the coil is the last obvious thing to test/change.

will post back once the coil is in.

thanks for the offer for advice.

If you have a volt meter, it would be a really good idea to check the ignition wiring TO the coil. Real easy way to check, put one lead on the Coil Positive pole, the other to ground. Turn on the ignition switch and see if there is voltage there. If there is no voltage at all, you have a bad wire or switch. If there is about battery voltage there, it's not that segment of wiring.

Also, make sure your Coil (minus) has a wire going from it to the Distributor and that it has continuity also. These are things you can do while you are waiting for the new coil.

I always have to ask this because everyone's meaning of "won't start" is different. Does it fire at all? Does it backfire thru carb? Or is there absolutely no firing, no trying to start? You did say no spark at 3 plugs, so I assume no fire at all. Now that you have replaced everything, you might as well do the coil. It's all cheap. Hopefully you did not buy wrong or faulty parts. That is hard to catch because you think it's something else. If it will not start after coil, Double check all parts. Points, rotor, cap and correct internal/external resistor coil and of course GROUND WIRES AND HOT WIRES and coil to dizzy wire, for breakage or chafing.
Don't know what you have but have to mention ignition switch not sending hot to coil or foot start side terminal not sending hot or bypass resistor problem. You may want to jump from batt + to coil + and try.
Hopefully the new coil will do it.
After going back and reading, I want to be sure you know how to set points. Points have a phenolic "follower" that rides on dizzy shaft lobes. Follower must be on top of a lobe, then loosen screw just enough to allow points to rotate and open/close to achieve proper gap, then tighten screw. (You can bump starter or turn crank by hand to get follower on cam lobe) There is enough gear backlash to rotate shaft back and forth to check the operation of points because gap may change when tightening the screw. If you know all that, disregard, not meant to disrespect your knowledge.

You could also take the cap off turn ignition on and crank the engine like trying to start it. If there is spark at the points you know the points are working up to that point.

If you had the distributor apart, make sure you did not ground it out with the reassembly of the shaft you attach your coil wire to.

using a volt meter with one lead on the Coil Positive pole, and the other to ground, with the key turned on, I have a reading of 12.21. battery was at about 12.26.

key turned off shows nothing.


I redid that wire and it successfully passed a continuity test.

Sounds to me like you are covering all bases. Keep us posted and let us know if the coil did the job!

taking the testing a couple of steps further:

I also did the same test to the negative pole of the coil (and ground) and received the same reading as the positive pole of the coil. Guess this is good?

I also did the same test to the wire attachment point of the distributor - where the wire from the negative pole of the coil goes to- (and ground) and received the same reading as the positive pole of the coil. Guess this is good?

so, I am guessing that this proves that electricity is flowing from the ignition switch (key) to the distributor?

new coil just came; installed it; no good (technically speaking - referring to a previous reply to my post - we have not achieved 'chicken lips')


this might just be my imagination, but is sounds 'stronger' trying to start.

engine cranks, but that is all


interesting idea.... I touched a wire from the positive post of the battery to the positive pole of the coil and nothing happened.

where/what is the bypass resistor so I can check it?


thanks for the kind words and helpful hints. I have not set points in 40+ years (age alert...) and welcome all advice. how does one turn the crank by hand?

1. Connect jumper wire from pos Post of batt to coil + and try to start truck. If starts, take off wire to stop.
2. Turn motor with wrench on front pulley bolt or use two stick out bolts added to puller holes with pry bar in between. Make sure NO battery to truck. I did this but had front clip off and rad off.
3. Bypass resistor on firewall, white ceramic block, if you have one.
4. After setting points, Do the MikeE tests above.
5. You must check timing to be sure something is wrong. This is a must do ASAP. You must be sure dizzy rotor is pointed at no. 1 at TDC, compression stroke, or near. Then check spark plug wire/firing order sequence.
6. With all the new parts and checking of wiring you did, you have to have spark if it's timed. If not, you missed something or purchased a bad or wrong part.

It's usually possible to grab a fan blade and turn the engine that way, assuming the fan belt is tensioned properly. On a new engine with plenty of compression, or an old, tight one that hasn't been run in a while it might be necessary to remove the spark plugs. Another method is to put the transmission in 3rd. gear and gently roll the truck forward. The idea is to get the rubbing block on the points on the highest part of the distributor cam lobe, and then adjust the points to about .016" (16 thousandths) For testing purposes any visible gap will do. The points should close on the flat part of the cam, and open on the high point. Now- - - -pay attention:

With the points open and the ignition switch on, you should see battery voltage on the terminal on the side of the distributor. With the points closed, you should see NO voltage there, since the points are grounding the terminal and the (-) side of the coil. An ice pick type test light with the lead grounded and the probe touching the distributor side terminal should flash as the engine is cranked. If the test light flashes, you should also get a spark at the center terminal of the coil by holding the wire near a ground while cranking.

The fact that you're getting voltage at the distributor terminal tells me the points are being held open all the time or the connection with the point spring inside the distributor is incorrect. . . No good!
Jerry

Do what Jerry (Hotrod Lincoln) said before my comments.
(I think that goes for everything I ever say)

back to harbor freight for a circuit tester...

will report back

It sounds like a similar problem I had and it was the coil that died on me. Ended up replacing the condensor and points just for added protection