The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area Engine Shop 235 Engine Rebuild Questions

I got a Best rubber seal part number 4519S from Northwestern Auto Supply up in Michigan. He says its going out today. He only had the one in stock. My machine shop is sending me two Fel-Pro Rubber ones that will be here tomorrow. Then earlier today, I ordered a Best Rope seal. I have seven engines to eventually get to, so I will keep the extras in an environmentally controlled area until I need them.

Thanks everyone for taking the time to help! And yes, Tim, I paid $45 for the 4519S. They are very proud of them.

Deve, I have the 2-part rubber seal of which you speak. I have no use for it, as my '53 235 uses shims on the main bearings, so that type of seal won't work for me. Let me know by PM if you are interested in it.
Carl

I'm certain the orange ones were made by the same company. They're essentially identical. Let me put my detective hat on. It may take a few days to a week, but I'll get to the bottom of this...
Jon

Gentlemen,and I use that term loosely,
No,All kidding aside,
Rear Main NOS rope seals
Lester J. Harris
775-267-2559
Old school Old Timer with no internet
A true Treasure to talk to and deal with.
VERY Trusting and HONEST.
Wouldn,t even take my money until I got the seals in the mail and I was satisfied.
Give this Gent a call,It,s worth it.
Regards,
steve sr.
Has a Warehouse full of parts

NOS works well, but you will never go back after using a Best Gasket brand,IMHO.

You prefer the rope style or the neoprene? I've gotten confused reading this thread.

If the seal surface has been turned down, pitted, or the engine has shims on the mains, I use rope.

If the crank is not pitted on the seal surface, had the seal surface turned down, and shims are not used on the mains, I prefer the Neoprene seal.

In this case, no damage to the crank, never been even polished. Since 1956-62 calls for the Neoprene (rubber) seal, I am having a heck of a time understanding why that seal is so hard to get.

Just today, my machine shop said I would be getting two new Fel-Pro RUBBER seals. UPS arrives, and guess what? TWO of those impossible to cut ROPE seals arrive. I tellya, some 'expert' somewhere talked Felpro into providing JUST the rope type. Now I have my machine shop looking for the PROPER, year original RUBBER seal. I got nothing better to do but wait days and days and days for a rear main seal I can actually USE!! LOL!

The Best Gasket Rubber Seal should arrive tomorrow and then we are all good, but WOW! Are you kidding me? You would put a weepy rope seal in when in 1956 it was realized that they are insufficient and the neoprene rubber one was THE rear main seal recommended by GM? But as Dave says, the rope is still needed for if you polish out the pits. BUT NOT the new style FEL PRO! I defy ANYONE to try and cut this seal. It simply cannot be done and still have the main shell part(kevlar) in tact at the junction. Not gonna happen! I do feel the Best Gasket rope seal would be fine. You have to wonder who the management genius that made the decision to scrap the rubber one was and what IT was thinking! It is THE 56-62 suggested seal! Hello? LOL!

Just to be clear Deve, the Neoprene seal was only sold as a replacement by Chev and others. Originally they had a rope seal.

Has anyone talked to Best Gasket? I haven't, but what I'm finding (like others have found) is an obvious current scarcity of the neoprene seals. I had hoped to have an answer by the end of the day today, but it is starting to seem to me like everyone selling these was getting them from one single source (Fel-Pro)...and that source has either dried up or has ceased making them for Fel-Pro. I ask if anyone has talked to Best Gasket because if they have them it is possible the maker of these is now under license by them and Fel-Pro has simply walked away from the product. It doesn't matter that they were sold by Victor Reinz, TRW, Fel-Pro and others...the maker had to be the same. Every one of these (including one I have saved which was removed from a 1959 engine which had never been rebuilt) was made in the same mold using the same color material and process. I'm guessing either Fel-Pro made them or more likely somebody made them for Fel-Pro under contract.

More as soon as I know.
Jon

I have not received a reply from two sellers.

Yeah, my machine shop did some checking and they stopped making the rubber kind thus stopped supplying everyone from the same source. That Best retailer list above is really the only hope of getting them. So far I only found one in Michigan.

He is trying Egge and Kanter today. He is upset because he understands clearly why I want the rubber one, and Fel-Pro even changed the cross references to the rubber one to reflect the Rope kind.

The RUBBER seal came in from Northwestern Auto Supply in Grand Rapids Michigan. They are a Best Gasket supplier in the Central Time Zone, so it came today. Its Black! So I am good for this build, but now that we all know this, its a good idea when one comes up on Ebay or somewhere to snag it. Thanks everyone for the help and I will have a picture of this seal in the build document later today.

Dumb question...

Anyone remember the thread about the business (I think in TN) that was making the 235 valve cover gasket from silicon? Suppose they could do the same for the rear main?

Maybe that's not an acceptable material for that application...

RockAuto now has a listing for this: SKF Part # 199
Picture shows it as a rubber one. The last time there was ONE remaining, I had to cancel the order cause they were out of stock.

So, I think this is the way to go:

http://devestechnet.com/Images/Projects/Project1959235/Project59235430lg.jpg

I just hope they are ready for a run on them since the other company totally quit making them.

Side Note.. Installing these rubber seals is such a joy. You can see they are higher than the rope ones, more stiff and they are about 1/32" higher on both sides than flush. This all makes perfect sense for a seal that will completely eliminate oil seepage. I suspect they are not JUST rubber though. I think there is either a composite inside or metal inside because they are VERY stiff. The stiffness is a very big deal in longevity. I would never purposely use a rope seal again unless there is some anomaly that prevents the rubber from working correctly. Then I would use a BEST rope seal. I defy anyone to try to cut the new Fel-Pro rope seals. I purchase a new box of razor blades just to make sure. Nope, not happening!

I used the FelPro rope gasket on my 49 216 and I couldn't get a clean cut with brand new razor blades. Ended up only doing the bottom seal as I ruined the 1st half I tried to cut....

Used the Best Gasket rope seal on the 235 I rebuilding, they cut smooth as glass and so far no leakie, course I've only got about 2 hrs on it

Dave

That is the first black rubber/neoprene seal I have seen.
"Best Gasket" may be making there own, now that the orange (Fel-Pro?) ones seem to no longer be made.

I know right! Black was a good sign! And I gotta tellya, the install was so nice. You could see this seal is going to work flawlessly. I have a Best Rope Seal coming too. I wont hesitate to use it on either shimmed or pitted cranks. Dave V, thanks for confirming its not just me on the cutting of these new Fel Pro ones.

It is unconscionable to me that Fel Pro was THAT stupid that they would make a rope seal the end user CANNOT cut no matter what they use and didn't test that first. From now on, I don't care if I have to pay double, I want a BEST gasket set and I won't consider anything else. Lets hope BEST continues to deliver.

Here is Fel-Pro's answer received this morning:

Hi Jon,

Unfortunately we do not offer that seal anymore. The tooling wore out and the volume was too low to justify the costs.

Best Gasket does offer a rubber RMB seal for this application, so a distributor of their products may be able to get that seal for you.

Thank you for contacting us.

On another note, I located 2 more of these (the Fel-Pro gaskets). I bought them and received them today. They came from Detroit Gasket, were in old boxes and one had been opened but not used. So at least at this point I have a few extras of the old Fel-Pro seal. Has anyone compared these to the Best Gasket rubber seal? I'd be interested to know the measurements and to see if they vary from Fel-Pro's product. If you're curious to see what many years of use does to one, you can see a comparison of the one removed from the 1959 engine and a new one:
http://i1154.photobucket.com/albums/p535/JonGoodman/rearmainendtoend2.jpg
and another view:
http://i1154.photobucket.com/albums/p535/JonGoodman/rearmainendtoend.jpg
and another:
http://i1154.photobucket.com/albums/p535/JonGoodman/rearmainsidebyside.jpg
and two rear main caps...1956 and 1959:
http://i1154.photobucket.com/albums/p535/JonGoodman/apairofendcaps.jpg
and note in the 1959 cap...raised notches have been created about 1 inch apart...I presume to keep the seal from rotating:
http://i1154.photobucket.com/albums/p535/JonGoodman/closerinspection.jpg

Also as an fyi, I got up in our attic this morning and found some old rope seals. One pack dates to around 1975~1976. One has no date but I think it dates to around 1985. The oldest one looks like it has dried out. The other one is more flexible. I'd be happy to trade them for one of the Best Gasket rubber seals (for comparison).
Jon

If Felpro stopped making rope seals, they would have all sorts of call for the neoprene ones. They took the expedient route rather than what was good for their customers. Now with a rope seal you can't cut, they took themselves completely out of the market. Lets hope Best picks up the slack.

I think I have black and red rubber gaskets in 10-15 year old 261 gasket sets - Fel-Pro probably, since I bought them from NAPA.

Here's a good discussion from a VCCA thread related to rubber vs rope seals. main seals
Mike

A few more minor questions:

1) Is it okay to put copper hi-temp gasket sealer on the threads of the oil pump assembly (the tube that goes across the engine as well as the screen connection at the pump). If not, what would you use?

2) The piston rod caps. The rods themselves are numbered on the cam side but the caps are not numbered there, they are only numbered in the center of the cap. Does the tangs that hold the bearings in place go together or opposite each other?

Thanks guys! Making great progress. Should have the lower end wrapped up tomorrow.

1) I didn't use any sealer on that pipe connection but I would imagine that shouldn't hurt.

2) If the rod caps are like the 54 235, each cap has a raised notch on one side of the cap, this notch goes on the cam side.
rod cap pic

Dave

I didnt think it would hurt anything either. Probably not necessary, but I dont want that screen moving.

Each cap has an indented area for the bearing to go in only one way. The rod has it too. Does the indentions go across from each other or together? The rod one IS on the cam side. What about the cap? Cam side too? My machine shop machined them so they are together, so I am just curious if he did it right.

Deve,

1) If you are referring to the steel tubing with the line nuts, it is a compression fitting and really does not need any sealant (much like household plumbing). Inspect the line nuts super carefully as I have had one crack leading to an oil pressure failure.

2) The rod caps should have a cylinder number stamp on them, look closely for a light stamping. The numbers on the rod and cap should be on the same side.

Paul

The caps are not numbered on the side. Just the rods. So just asking if anyone knows, if the bearing keyway is on the same side or opposite each other. When I took it apart they were opposite each other. This does not mean its correct. The machine shop reground the rods/caps with the keyway together.

Deve, The tangs should be on the same side.

I feel better now! Thanks! Now, about the head gasket. I do not remember ever putting a thin coat of gasket sealer on them. Yet the Fel-Pro instruction for the COPPER gasket that came in the kit says to put a thin coat on all metal surfaces. Discuss!

I use a copper head-gasket spray available from most parts stores. But, as usual, do not rely on my limited experience, wait to hear from others/Dave.

After you said that Tim, I remember now about 15 years ago using copper spray on a copper gasket. Is there one head gasket better than another?

I have used very few copper gaskets through the years, but I have not used any product on the ones I have used.
I usually use the blue Perma-torque style.

Well, thanks to Dave, lesson learned on the gasket set that you get from the machine shop. I will say this in the document too.

"Request a BEST Gasket set on your next rebuild. Pay extra, do NOT take no for an answer. Then, request that gasket set has a Rubber Rear Main Seal no. 4519S.

I will never make this mistake again.

Yeah, Fel-Pro recommends a thin coat of copper gasket sealer. So the aerosol spray is the best way to comply with that. Both sides.

Not that I have any respect for anything Fel-Pro says. I think they must have gotten bought out by someone who totally doesn't get vintage reality. Their rear main rope seals are impossible to cut and they stopped making the far superior rubber ones, then they include copper head gaskets that require gasket sealer?

So, I still wonder what the best Head gasket material is and why.

Fel-Pro isn't ALL bad. I got most of the gaskets that were supposed to be in the kit. The Copper Head Gasket went on very nicely. I should read my website more often. Jeff gave an instruction on how to install them and he recommended Copper Gasket Spray too. I sprayed a coat on both sides, used 4 guide studs and the head went on without incident. With the head on and valves adjusted, its all going great. Thanks everyone for the help!

By the way, there was a thread awhile back, someone was putting on a head gasket that blocked holes in the block. I was VERY nervous about this. The Fel-Pro Copper gasket did NOT block any holes.