The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area General Truck Talk Dyna-Beads...(+ spring lube)

I wonder what the consensus is on those teflon strips you can get to put between each leaf? They say it really quiets the ride and improves driveability, but I wonder.

I have them on mine, rides pretty good for a 60 year old truck.

Denny,

This sounds like something I may try on my TF one ton. Did you disassemble the spring packs to lube them, or is there a better way?

Steve

As much oil as my Suburban slung after I forgot to tighten the cam cover bolts, it ought to ride like a Cadillac.

My '50 and'40 Chevy cars both have the rear Springs wrapped from the factory. I think keeping Springs lubed has been know for sometime.

Used the liner on my springs. Didn't know how it rode before hand but it does good now. However, I'm working on a 50 coupe that still has the wrapped springs. It will be interesting to see what it looks like under the wrapping.

Denny, thank you for posting the results. I know there are occasions where some lube may not be a good idea but in generally I've always thought a little dab would help not hurt. We learn each day. As my industrial arts teacher said many years ago, "the biggest room in the world is room for improvement"
I've never forgotten that and try to learn a little something from each thread.....if I could only remember them all?!

Most of my life, I've felt the best advice is to get it straight from the horse’s mouth. Mike
Eaton has answered all of these questions about leaf springs and Eaton Detroit Spring
is a highly respected OEM manufacturer that has been in the business nearly 80 years
with facilities in three states. I night add that like Mar-K, all their products is made in the
USA.
All that said, even though I'm not a chemist or mechanical engineer, I have worked
around machine shops and steel fabrication all of my life. I'm quite skeptical about his
statement that grease will cause a problem with 5160 alloy steel. He doesn't go in to a
lengthy explanation as to the mechanics of failure, that is, whether it’s a physical or
chemical problem, he simply states that it's a problem.

Don, there is some validity to the theory that a dry multi leaf spring has a natural
damping effect due to the friction. And it is possible that lubricating a multi leaf spring
could over work it and cause physical problems. As far as using any common lubricant
causing a chemical breakdown of the steel, I really doubt it, and can't find any other
reference to the effect that it does.

You and Alvin are quite correct, back in the 50's when I worked in gas stations and
Chevy dealerships, there were still a lot of the older cars that had wrapped springs
some with grease fittings that kept them lubed. Some were supposedly lubed for the life
of the spring much as the sealed for life bearings.

You mean you’re supposed to tighten those bolts more than finger tight Charlie???
When I reassembled my 216, the front cover was in perfect shape and flat. I sealed it
with Permatex #2, did not overly tightened it, properly supported it and used a real seal
driver and installed a SKF brand Speedi-sleeve on the damper. It still leaks oil with less
than 10k on the engine. I've had the same results you've had, everything underside
nicely lubed. No sense in trying to keep it super clean, it’s a driver. But it sure does
make a mess of the underside after a few thousand miles. It however, isn't leaking
enough to keep the springs lubed.

And Steve, dint forget ya. No, I did not disassemble the springs, just soaked them down
good with the spray. The Chain and Cable lube that my buddy gave me is quite light,
much like a penetrating oil and as you spray the edge of the leaf you can see it wick in
between the leafs.

I thought I'd posted this, but Mike Eaton does talk about using the liners. I think he
mentioned using Delrin, not Teflon as it is very durable, also the use of the buttons. He
stresses the importance of keeping the center pin tight and that paint and powder
coating between the leafs will eventually get worked out and cause the spring pack to
loosen.

So the whole point of this thread was simply to point out that after many years of
subscribing to the dry spring philosophy it appears to be unfounded. That a lubed multi-
leaf spring, whether it’s accomplished with grease, oil or plastic liners, makes a world of
difference in the ride. I’m sure this light oil isn’t going to last very long, so I’ll probably be
doing this every month or so from now on.

I’m still getting more bounce than I like when I hit road bumps. It’s either the frame
flexing, which I can’t do anything about or the shocks are not matched to the spring rate.
The shocks are from JC or Classic Parts of Am., and are probably fine for a ½ ton AD
but the ¾ ton has heavier axles, brake drums, spindles and wheels so I would expect
the shock would need to be stronger than the 3100 in order for it to do its job as a
damper.
Denny Graham
Sandwich, IL

I don't normally post "told you so" responses, but for this one, I could not resist. Seems the problem was indeed in the suspension and not the wheels/tires. Just like a modern BMW

In about an hour, I am headed off to the tire shop to have the wheels/tires on my new to me '71. This truck shakes the crud out of the front end at about 65 mph. Sometimes worse than other times. I suspect worn out suspension components are to blame. But, IMHO, always a good idea to start with the simplest of possibilities...the wheels/tires. We'll see.

I have had the teflon strips on my 216 build for about 10 years now and am very glad there wasn't alot of people speaking against them. Thats not an easy job to do. But it DOES stand to reason that with them in between, the springs would be happier.

I have had teflon strips in my '40 for 17yrs and 80k miles . The ride is smoother than without the teflon and I prefer it this way when driving without a load (most of the time) HOWEVER , the original shocks were not up to the task of damping the free movement and I have had to up grade the shocks.

Since adding the camper to the truck and subsequent E load range tyres and bigger rims , I feel the teflon is not so ideal under this loading situation.

I'll give you a 20% credit Dave. Entire front end from the
steering wheel down to the dust caps completely rebuilt, even
the springs. Just running them dry. And as Slim Dusty points
out, the shocks need to be up to the spring rate. Gonna look
into some new shocks that will handle the extra mass of a 3/4
ton suspension and tires over the ones meant for a 1/2 ton.

dg

I think Dave's point Denny was that it was never wheels and tires. You described very well, in detail what was happening and for how long. Then with help from everyone here, WE ascertained it may not be wheels and tires, but something else.. Then other people much smarter than me turned you on to the real problem.

Isnt that how its supposed to work? Its why you come here. Not ONLY to give us your great knowledge and advice, but to GET some in return every now and then. On behalf of everyone who posted (with the exception of the person who was concerned about post count) YOU ARE WELCOME!

Sorry - I didn't mean to come across as skeptical. I meant it literally "If I didn't know any better". I haven't been on here long but I've seen enough of your posts to trust you.

Hey bud, no sweat on this end. Mainly just looking for
opinions and answers. If I took everyone's opinion without
question I'd be a * fool. I'll listen to them all, but
make my own mind up what I've got it all gathered up in a pile.
Don't trust me huh? Here's who I am, taint hiding it from no
one and some of it's documented right here when you have time
to look me over:
http://www.pbase.com/dennygraham/dgraham
When you've been looking for a decade and tried every thing
under the sun you get kind of furstrated when people think
you're a 15 year old novices that's never had his head under
the hood.
Been messin' with and keeping my own vehicles running since I
was just a sprout, cept for the newest crop. Pop was an old
school mechanic from the 20's till after the war who taught us
mechanics early on. Big brother was a street rodder from day
one and had built many nice cars for street and strip before
we got into the midgets and spriter.

Now to say this cured all the problems and the truck rides
like a new Silverado....might be a slight exaggeration. But a
little squirt of earl does make a world of difference in the
ride. There's still this shudder or oscillation every time I
hit a bump in the road and I still think its got something to
do with the spring rate and the generic shocks that the
vendors are selling.
Next step is to try and try and fine charts some where which
list the physical dimensions and specs on shock absorbers.
Haven't had any luck at Monroe or Gabriel's sites. But I'll
keep looking. I'm willing to try a little stronger shock on
this truck to see if it dampens out that vibration/shudder.
Rock Auto does list different shocks for the rear but only
show the same one for the front of a 3100 and 3600.
I'm making a mount for my cheapo camera so I can document what
I'm trying to describe. One can write page after page and
still never get the point across, this thread is a good
example. One five minute ride on a video is worth all this
discussion plus a hundred more.

DG

Quote from Denny Graham:
"If I took everyone's opinion without
question I'd be a * fool. I'll listen to them all, but
make my own mind up what I've got it all gathered up in a pile."

This is why I listen to DG, and why I am comfortable going back and forth with him. He has a long lifetime of experience which gives him license to be opinionated on many topics, yet he does yield to reason when presented in a logical manner.
Just don't walk on his lawn!
Carl

Boy, I don't know if there's a gremlin that reinterprets what I say between my screen and yours or what.

???

Denny, why don't you play with the toe setting and see if that wobble changes or goes away. About the only adjustment on these old trucks anyway. Seems the bump is causing the alignment to hunt for its happy loaded state. Dial in another 1/16 or more and see what happens.

Sorry David you old GM guy, I must have miss read your reply,
dyslexia you know.

And DavidF, na, toe in is right, did all of that when I
rebuilt the front end. You can see how the wheel returns also
how easy it is to steer in turns. Around 16k on the Cooper
tires and they don't show any wear at all. I think part of it
might be expecting to much from the old gal considering she's
still got the beam axle and beefy springs in the rear. I've
ridden in several 1/2-ton AD's and they ride a lot smoother than
this one. Never had the pleasure of taking a turn in any
other stock 3/4-ton, at least, not recently.
I'm jealous of Gus and the fine video's he's been posting,
it is the best way to tell it like it is. So Gus, you're
responsible for pushing me into the moving pictures.
Now, I'm no videographer and the sound pickup is lousy in a
10 year old Easy Share Kodak camera, and the solid mount I
welded up for the back of the seat shakes a bit, but this
little clip, does give you a little better feel of how she
rides and handles, at least a little better than I can
describe in words. So jump in and take a ride around the
block with me:


And again, great job on that truck of yours Dave, love that
blue. And from reading your gallery entry, I think you're very
honest and realistic about the cost of investment and return.
I still don't see how you guys can get those projects
finished up in a couple of years or less. I'm pushin' ten
right now and I'm a long way from finished. Still got the dash
in a couple of experimental colors, as it the out side,
although the Red/White and blue was appropriate for this
weekend.

dg

Your video is private

No it's not!!!!

Oops, gonna have to look at it again after breakfast, thanks Gus.

Loads alright from my computer?

Maybe I didn't publish it? I'm real new to this here movie stuff.

dg

I got the same thing Denny. I wanted to go for a ride in your truck.

Gee, don't know what to tell ya'll, it's public and I just now
went in on sweetie face's Apple I-pad and it loaded just fine
from the link.

dg

Works now!!!! Thanks for the ride Denny. I got to get up your way some time and get a real ride.

Denny, that is one sweet ride. Sorry I didn't see the vibration you referred to. If it is a real bother to you, I can give you a suggestion. Install a steering damper. They are relatively inexpensive and easy to install. No one will know it's there but you. Just a thought.

Yup. Private here too.

When you post a YouTube video you have the option of making it Public, Unlisted or Private.

Public means that it will show up in searches and anyone can find and watch it.

Unlisted means that anyone with the address can watch it.

Private means that only the one that posted it can see it.

EDIT: oops. got distracted and took too long to compose... works here too now.

Good, glad ya'll could go for a spin round the block. Not sure
what the problem was, I'll get better at it as I take my
lessons from the "Gus" productions.

Can't remember what it was that I read about steering dampers
on these trucks, but it wasn't good. The shudder is subtle but
it's there when you're in the truck. You can see at speed
that there isn't any access play in the steering on this
truck. It's not a back and forth thing in the steering wheel
that's buggin' me. That would indicate it was from Looseness
in the the steering train. This is a shudder, just a few oscillations
you can feel through out the entire truck when you hit a bump.

Can't finger out what that clicking is in the sound??? Can you
use an external mic with the GoPro??? I'm getting back on
that kick again. Can see me recording the movement of all
four wheels from the wheelwell. Would love to see what
they are doing when I get the rebound.

Door's always open Brian, take a trip, it's only a 20 minute ride.
DG

Teflon strips. Went to a garage sale a few years back and found a kid's "Flying Carpet". For those not in the snow belt its a roll up toboggan made of tough plastic. Paid 50 cents and got home and cut it into strips wide enough to go between the spring leaves. Obviously could not go too far into the space between the leaves even though the wheel was hanging. Works very well but after a few years and miles the strips work their way out sideways. I think if I did it again I would use those Teflon buttons.

The ones I installed required total disassembly down to each leaf. Then they have slots cut into them for the rivet bars so they can't come out. I am not sure how long they last. Hopefully awhile since that isn't an easy job.

Denny, by chance could it be a drum needing turning? Just a thought.
Nice ride. The "sound" starting and going up through the gears sure brought back a lot of memories for me. Thanks.

Not used to seeing all that power unleashed at once huh Alvin?
Yeah, those little 216's ain't much in the horse power
department but they're still a good little engine.
Just had the drums off to pack the wheel brgs., I've also been
getting a squeal once in a while. Thought the brakes might be
glazed up but they weren't. The drums looked fine also. Even
so I hit them with some 80 grit just to make sure and tapered
the leading edges a little more than I did when I did the
brake job originally. My shudder isn't with braking anyway.
She brakes hands off as straight and smooth as an arrow in
flight. I took a light cut on the drums when I rebuilt them
and they ran true back then and when I adjusted them this
time there were no tight spots.

dg

Lucky Me , Denny was in the hood, and stopped by to see me. I even got a real ride in his truck and got to check out the vibes he has been talking about.

And......Brian and I went for a ride in the 55 SHAKER also,
which isn't much of a shaker at all, especially compared to
my 3600. Nice job on that step-side Brian.
A real noticeable difference in the ride between the 1/2 ton
and 3/4 ton trucks. Lighter wheels, lighter frame, lighter
rear axle all make for a smoother ride.
I noticed the same thing in a '52,3100 that a one time friend
of mind had restored. I rode shotgun on a 1,000 mile trip to
KC, MO one weekend in September.
Also obvious is a considerable difference in the performance
between my 216 and Brian's 235 in his '55. And after the
216 in that '52 was replaced with a 235 it was a lot
peppier truck.

Denny Graham
Sandwich, IL

Denny, have you had your steering wheel off? You could rotate your wheel one spline to achieve E-W orientation.

If you're talking about the way the wheel is clocked, I've
done that on purpose. When my arm is resting on the window
opening, it places my left hand right at the left spoke of
the wheel, which is where I like to rest my arm and hand when
I'm out on the road.
Kind of disconcerting to some people when they drive it, they
expect the spokes to be lined up straight across and think it
was installed wrong or that the front end is out of kilter.
http://www.pbase.com/dennygraham/image/160235578/large
But thanks for noticing.
dg

Just went back and re-read most of the thread, dang, it's
gotten a mind of it's own, almost like reading War & Piece
now.
So, I can't find it now but someone mentioned the 'dots'
and aligning them with the stem. As you can see here on my
2014 silverado, they didn't have a clue when they mounted up
the Bridgestone P265/70P17 up grade tires:
http://www.pbase.com/dennygraham/image/160253734/large

The Cooper SRM LT Radials on the '50, 3604 have no such
mark/dot on them.

dg

If I remember correctly we would mark the high spot on the radial run out on the wheel and the tire manufacturer would mark the low spot of the radial run out of the tire. When the factory would mount the tires on the rims they would match up the dots.

A little more food for thought.
I've looked at a bunch of rims over the last few weeks, on a bunch of trucks and have
yet to find one that has any markings/notches/scratches/dimples on them. I have read
that sometimes the manufacturer will put a sticker on them indicating the low point,
which is usually removed once the tire is mounted. As I said, I found no dimple
but I did happen to find a sticker still on one front wheel of my 2014 Silverado:
http://www.pbase.com/dennygraham/image/160256437/original
The rest are missing off the rims, but I now feel a bit more confident that the factory did
match-mount the tires.
If only I knew that the ones on the ’50 were matched, which I’m sure they are not. Even
though the tire shop road-force balanced them the last time, I’m sure they didn’t
dismount them to rotate them.

Here’s a quote from the Bridgestone tire company:

“Can we review which dot goes where? First, if the tire has a red dot, ignore the yellow
dot. Then, if you have a steel wheel, look for the low point dimple on the wheel, and
mount the tire with the red dot next to the low point dimple. If the wheel is aluminum, or
if it’s steel, but has no low point dimple, mount the tire with the red dot next to the valve
stem.”

And this quote, again, from that Bridgestone site, may explain why I’m getting the
40mph hop, which if allowed to continue for a minute or so, can actually build in
amplitude as a harmonic vibration can do.

“OK, that makes sense for the yellow dot, but what about the red dot? The red dot is
much more complicated than the yellow dot. It indicates the “radial force variation first
harmonic maximum.” That’s a mouthful, of course, but it’s a way of indicating where the
centrifugal force tending to pull the rotating tire away from the wheel is greatest. Another
way of looking at it is that in a sense, if the tire were out of round, the red dot would
more or less correspond to the “high point” or place where radial runout forces are
greatest.”

Denny Graham
Sandwich, IL

Also Denny, a shock that has lost its Gas (pressure) will amplify a pothole/bump occilation.....I had a Death Wobble on my Dodge Cummins 4x4 that i traced to a dead front shock...it will act the same with a out of balance wheel assy....easy check, undo the bottom mount of the shock and it should extend if it is a gas shock.

Dave

I'll take a look at them Dave. They were new in '05 or '06 but
now that you mention it, that was ten years ago and 16,000
miles. Even though all of the components that could go bad
were replace with new stuff back then, much of it still isn't
up to the standards of the new cars/trucks.

The old litmus test for bad shocks was always to jump on the
bumper to see if the snubbers were working. This truck will
bounce once and stop. One thing I did notice if you stand in
the back corner of the bed and bounce on it, you can see
something like a wave or twisting of the box-frame-body. It
really moves around a lot. When you have a structure that is
that flexible I can see where vibration and harmonic vibration
could be a real concern. The way the AD frames were built
allows them to flex quite a bit. and the way the cabs were
hung gives it lots of room to move around as the frame flexes.

Although I've ridden in Brian's '55 TF and a couple of other
guy AD's they have all been 1/2 ton trucks. I've yet to take
a ride in a 3/4 ton so I have something to compare the ride
to.
My '54, 3604 made the ride from one town five miles away to
the barn before the engine got tore down so I didn't get a
chance to get a feel for the way it rode.
Tks
dg

It is nothing short of amazing how much these trucks flex when you jump up and down on the end of a rear bumper. I have a really nice and clean, rust free frame and everything that moves is new. It twists and turns like its made out of rubber.
Carl