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#110376 05/02/2004 10:27 PM
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I've just started using base/clear to paint.(used acrylic enamel before and laquer primers) and I'm having trouble with orange peel. I wouldn't worry about it but I don't want to sand and buff the interior and would like it to look as good as possible. I'm using NAPA Crossfire products. I'm mixing the 2 part primer, the base coat and the clear according to the tech sheets except I put 10 percent thinner in the clear. Ive been told by a few painters this was acceptable and will help the thick clear come out of the gun better. I've adjusted my air pressure at the regulator to about 40 lbs. This gives me about 10 lbs at the gun.
(I'm using a gravity feed paint gun. Also for the first time.) I was told to try the following by a painter friend.
Lower air pressure: This seemed to make the clear come out thicker though and orange peel more.
Thin out my mix a little more.
Keep adjusting the mixture at the gun.
Most of my problem seems to show up while applying the clear. The base was fairly smooth.
Are these probable causes?

Can anyone else offer some tips?
thanks
Jim

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I have never used a thinner in my clear coat, only the recommended amount of activator and I have not had the orange peel that you described. I adjust my air pressure at the tank to about 45 psi, any lower than 40 psi and I can't get the clear to spray. Hope this helps.


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I've never heard of using a thinner or a reducer in clear either. If it comes out wrong in your opinion, try a different brand. Maybe try shooting it on a cooler day so it flows longer. I haven't painted in a while, but doesn't clear come in different heat ranges (flash points) like some primer/sealers. If it orange peals too much, I'ld think somethings up.
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try uping your air most clear says to have about 45-60 psi then the orange peel look should go away

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Did a little experimenting. Had a some success with cutting down the air pressure ot get rid of the orange peel. I started sanding and buffing though and have some small dots which resemble small flake. The buffed surface is smooth. My paint is black(with no flakes).
I sanded off the clear in a spot and can see the spots in the color, HOWEVER, I can't see them before I spray the clear and it seems like they are appearing when I apply the clear.
The next thing I will try is another brand of clear(after I take the fender the NAPA for a little "professional help")
any other hints?
thanks
Jim

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Jim I assume you saw the "10 lbs" mentioned in the tech sheets or instructions with your gun. Go back and read it again and you will see it says "at the tip". That is at the tip of the gun where the air and paint come out. Now, you are probably wondering "how do I know what that is". Well, that is a good question, all you need is a $150.00 or so special air cap that has a guage for this purpose.

Here is the skinny, FORGET about the 10 lbs, that is for legal reasons only that it is in any instructions. It is required to meet HVLP regulations on that particular gun. It has NOTHING what so ever to do with YOU.

And, if you set your regulator at the compressor or something like that and you set it at 40, you are still not at 10 at the gun, I would say you are even lower than that.

FORGET all of that and start over. There should be a number like 23, 29, 50 something like that in the instructions or on the gun that say something like "50 lbs max inlet pressure". THAT is the number you need to be concerned with. THAT is the inlet pressure you need AT THE inlet of the gun. NOT at the wall or compressor but AT the inlet of the gun.

In fact, you could "up" that a little and what it will do is atomize your paint and clear a little more, not a bad thing. It "may" put you over the "10 lbs" HVLP rule on the gun, but unless you plan on getting a visit from the Air Quality Control agency in your garage, it shouldn't mean rip to you.

What kind of gun is it you are using.

By the way, I was a Martin Senour (NAPA's paint)paint for a number of years. Did you get a Sharpe Gun from your NAPA store as well?


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Jim, cutting down on air pressure will likely wet up your surface more, possibly eliminating orange peel but filling the paint and clear film with solvents causing MANY other problems. Some of these problems don't rear it's ugly head for days or even years!


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Talked to the napa guys and even brought the fender with me. They had no idea what the little dots were in my clear. My color is OK. I've tried the clear with higher pressure(at the guage about 40 lbs) lower pressure (about 20 lbs) and both pressures with and without about 10% reducer. Got the best results with 20 lbs air and 10% reducer. I still have a few dots in the clear though. They are like a pinpoint or a little bigger but very visible.
On another subject, I plan to repaint the whole fender and start over but I already sanded and buffed part of it. I expect fisheye if I don't do something. I will sand it to prep for paint and wipe it with reducer. OR do I have to do all that and reprime to seal it.
Sorry about all the questions but I really want to be able to start using the gravity gun and base/clear with some success.
thanks to all
jim

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Jim, as I said, lowering the pressure may get you a "better" result in one aspect, and worse in another. The little "spots" you see are likely "solvent pop" because there is too much solvent that didn't flash off due to the poor atomization from the low air pressure. frown

Read the following text and you will have a better idea of what I am talking about.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>

"Basics of Basics" Atomization and gun set up.
By Brian Martin

Being HVLP and low VOC products are the way the industry’s going I will be referring to them in this discussion on painting and paint guns. Most all basic issues dealing with HVLP can be applied to conventional guns, atomization is atomization. The HVLP just arrives at it differently.

The object of the spray gun is to break up the primer/sealer/paint/clear (I will call this “PSPC” from here out) into small particles and lay them in neat little rows on the panel being PSPRed. So the whole outcome rests on how well the gun is doing this. Picture the droplets of PSPC coming out of the fluid tip of the gun and then the air “slapping” them into smaller droplets.

You have two things that help you with this process, air and solvent. Solvent can mean something that is already in the PSPR from the manufacture or something the manufacture has told you to add to it. By the way, you should always mix in proper ratios as instructed in the tech sheet. The thinner (less viscosity) you get the PSPR or the more air you have at the fluid tip of the gun the more it will break up the PSPR. The target for you is getting the perfect balance needed. Too much solvent and the PSPR will have no body, fill, durability, etc. Too much air and you blow the PSPR everywhere but the car, poor adhesion, excessive texture, etc.

So, the answer is proper air supply and gun (and fluid tip) choice and how you adjust it.

With today’s high solids-low VOC (Volatile Organic Compound, you know the bad stuff that goes up into the air we breathe) products there is less solvent. And with HVLP guns there is less air at the cap to break up the PSPC, proper air supply and gun setup is more important than ever.

FIRST THINGS FIRST, your compressor and air supply.

An HVLP gun requires more VOLUME of air to operate (the V in HVLP, High Volume Low Pressure). Now you may notice that your HVLP gun is adjusted at maybe the same PSI as an old conventional gun, around 50 lbs at the gun (many HVLP guns are set at much lower though) so where is the “Low” in PSI they are talking about? It is at the actual air cap where the air and paint come out. An HVLP gun has only 10 lbs at the cap while a conventional has upwards of 50! So the VOLUME of air (CFM, Cubic Feet per Minute) is the key to proper atomization with an HVLP.

This 10 lbs I am mentioning is AT THE CAP where the air and paint comes out. It is not measurable without a special air cap that has a gauge built in to it. This air cap costs about $150.00 (and you would need a different one for every brand and model of gun you use) and is not needed to set up or tune your gun. Just looking at the droplet patterns will tell you everything you need. I only refer to it to make a point about HVLP operation.

If you have a gun that requires 15 CFM you will need a compressor and plumbing that will produce that at a very minimum. There are HVLP guns that need as little as 7.5 CFM so you can get good results even from a smaller compressor. Air supply is a complete subject by it’s self so lets assume that you have the air supply needed and move on to gun set up.

So atomization is the key, but why? Why can’t you just lay it out wet and let it “flow”, as an old painter will say. Picture a jar full of bb’s, they will represent well small, atomized droplets of PSPC. The gaps in between the bb’s is solvent. Now picture a jar filled with marbles, they will represent large, poorly atomized droplets of PSPC. The gaps in between are, you guessed it, solvent.

If you apply your PSPC in large poorly atomized droplets, what you will have is a film full of solvent. This can and will cause slow curing, shrinkage and dieback (the loss of gloss in the hours and days after application).

So, now that we have learned the need for gun set up, how do we do it? Lets start with the fluid tip choice. The newer high solids low VOC PSPC products need to be broken up more, so a smaller fluid tip is needed.
Basically you want the smallest fluid tip that will still allow you to PSPC the particular part you are PSPCing keeping the entire thing wet and in a fair amount of time. In other words a 1.0 tip would be beautiful for clearing one fender, but would be lousy to paint a complete. The application would be way to slow and the first panel would be way to flashed by the time you got around back to it. So you need to compromise, a 1.3 is a great all around tip, while a 1.5 though getting a little big, can get you by. If you read the tech sheet on the particular product you are shooting, it will have a recommendation for fluid tip size.
There are needs for other tips, for instance when shooting polyester primer you may need as big as a 2.3, but for urethanes and epoxies, the 1.3 or 1.4 will work great. If you plan on using a pressure pot or paint a bus, all bets are off and we would need to study a little bit more.

As an example of the use of a 1.3 tip I did a test once that proved the point well. I shot two panels of metal with a med solids urethane primer. One was shot with a 1.3 super high atomizing top of the line topcoat gun. The other was shot with a 1.5 (or a 1.7 I can’t remember) “hoser” primer gun. Three coats were applied and after a full cure (the one shot with the larger gun took MUCH longer to flash and cure by the way) the film thickness was measured. The one shot with the 1.3 tip was 2 tenths of a MIL thicker! The larger gun laid out the marble sized droplets full of solvent and when the solvent flashed the film shrank.

Air supply is a subject that could fill many pages by it’s self. So we are going to assume you have that covered and move on to gun set up.

You need to “tune” your gun EVERY TIME you use it just as you would tune a guitar before you perform. This is done with a very basic spray out pattern test. This very basic test tells you how your gun is atomizing and you adjust it to achieve the best atomization you can.

Lets do a spray pattern test:

Set the fan width as need (you don’t want to change it after you have “tuned” the gun). Turn out the material knob about 2 ½ turns. This is the “mixture” adjustment, kind of like the idle screw on a carburetor. The farther in it is screwed the lower the fluid to air ratio is and the smaller the droplets will be. The farther out it is, the higher the fluid to air ratio is and the larger the droplets.
Set the air pressure at the inlet to the gun to the manufactures specs. On an HVLP gun this spec is usually found on the gun and is the maximum PSI it can have while still maintaining the maximum 10 lb at the cap for legal HVLP transfer efficiency (68 %). You are now ready to do a test spray out.

Tape a piece of masking paper on the wall for the test. Hold the gun at a right angle to the wall, just as if you were going the wall. Hold the gun at a spread out hands distance (about 8” or 22cm). Pull the trigger to completely open for a split second and then close it. You want an ON-OFF wide open-completely closed in ONE movement. You should have a cigar shaped pattern with complete coverage in the center with fading coverage going away from the full coverage cigar shape in the center. The center should be fully covered without any runs. If you have runs, either you are holding the trigger too long, you are too close or the gun is simply applying too much material. In which case you need to screw in the material knob or turn the air pressure down. But most likely if you have turned the material knob out the 2 ½ turns and the air is set at the factory specs, you are just too close or holding the trigger open too long.

The droplets you see trailing off the center are what you will use to “tune” your gun.

Turn in the material knob to make the droplets smaller (and or raise the air pressure). The balance you need to attain is the smallest droplet size possible before you loose the coverage desired. In other words if you turn in the material knob too far, not enough material will be coming out to cover the panel!

Now, you’ll notice that I said, “raise the pressure to the gun”, while earlier I said to set it to manufactures specs. We are talking a very small adjustment. It is a fine balance in material to air ratio and a little more air than specified is okay. Even if it is an HVLP gun the inlet pressure recommended is to maintain the 10 lb limit at the cap. Well, about three quarters of the country has no regulations for HVLP use so if you go over the 10 lbs all it will do is atomize the material a little better. You may loose a little of the benefits of HVLP though. But remember you have a lot of control with the material adjustment knob.

After you are happy with the droplet size, DON’T TOUCH THE FAN CONTROL. It will change the PSI at the cap and will change the atomization you worked hard to get.
Do this spray out every time you spray as material change, temp, and humidity will necessitate a spray out droplet pattern test. Good luck!

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You don't have to reprime or seal or anything. Be sure you don't sand THRU the clear, that can cause you trouble. Just give it a good even sanding with 500 and reshoot your color and clear.

You need to get some 6384 M-S "Tec/CLEAN" wax and grease remover. Don't use "reducer" for cleaning, get the right stuff. smile


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Well I did that fender again with basically the same results. I bought a new gun, Craftsman with a 1.5 tip. Nothing special or expensive. The clear went on perfectly. I experimented with the mixture at the gun and followed manufacture inst. it is still very orange peeled, no matter what the mix. Had the gun set at the pressure in the gun instructions. I'm gonna try a different brand and see if that makes a difference. Good thing I'm patient. I guess if I wasn't I'd have to get another hobbie.
Keep you posted.
Jim

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Oops - I meant to say the color went on perfectly. The clear was peeley.
Jim

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If your looking for different clears to try:

I've had good luck with PPG clears (2021 - is what I have used)

Also - Tip Top makes a great clear. If layed on properly I got almost 0 orange peel - still looked better after some wet sanding and buffing though.

http://www.coastairbrush.com/ has the Tip Top clear in stock.

- Ryan


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Painted the other fender following all the instructions. Tech sheets, gun setup(thanks MARTINSR)and different clear. The PPG Omni I used this time had much better flow. Had better luck with orange peel but still have pinpoint size dots. Maybe 50 per sq. in. to hundreds per sq. in. in places. Have a couple of paint shops I think I can check with and may try that. Still frustrated :confused: but I think I can see the end of the tunnel :rolleyes:
jim

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Also I forgot to ask. Does anyone think this could be in the basecoat even though I can't see anything in the base while I'm applying.

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It sounds like you are not getting covering with the first coat completly and the second one isn't going to "melt" the first in most cases. Your first coat has to look like the last, not dry or a "tack coat" like in the old days.


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Seconding Martinsr.....

Buddy of mine shot a bike the other day with Omni - was his first time using Omni products (usually PPG and HOK - yes I know Omni is a division of PPG)

He had a hell of a time getting coverage - took more coats than what he was used to - twice as many.

Are you trying to save money by using Omni? Personally, I say use a higher grade paint - but if finances dictate what you can do - then work with what you have.
- Ryan


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No I didn't go into this to save money. I started with the napa crossfire cause the dupont/ppg dealers are not open at convenient hours for me. My dad has used the omni with success but he puts everything on with the assumption he will be sanding and buffing. I can do that too but I don't want to do that to the interior. I want a pretty good finish to start with. How much of a difference in the products (not the money, the ease of use)are we talking about and do I have to change the primers and everything when I go to a different paint system?
I like to think I can conquer this but maybe I need a more idiot proof product.
Ryan,
I had NO problem with coverage. In fact I had a couple of big runs that I have to sand out now. Other than that and the little dots, It looks pretty good.

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Ok - I'll try to address the issue.

Omni is PPGs lower grade system.

The experience I've had with Omni versus PPG, HOK is this: the omni (color here, not clear) was very 'thin' in color terms. To get it spread evenly and cover throroughly - we needed 6 coats! Normally I do three - but it depends. Even the smell of omni products makes my skin crawl.

I acutally prefer PPG over HOK (division of Valspar) - but I like some of HOKs colors better.

Primers should be interchangable - of course against manufacturers warnings. I have done much experimenting with differnt brands, layering them, mixing them directly, etc. - just basically trying to get the paint to fail - and found them to be very forgiving.... that said - follow the manufacturers directions - they spent millions in R/D to make the products work well.

If you move to PPG you should not have to switch primers. I like k-36 from PPg but others have other preferences.

Ease of use will not necessarily change - quality of outcome will though.....Just go get a bit of the same color in the high grade paint - and give it a shot. Get good coverage with the color - and shoot a med coat of clear (let it tack a few minutes) followed by a wet coat - MARTINSR may jump in here and give you better pointers....

- Ryan


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EVERY CLEAR COAT - will look 1000 times better after it's been sanded and buffed. I don't care if you're Johnny bad *ss clearcoater - it will always be a little ripply without sanding/buffing.

I found that Tip Top clear I mentioned earlier to lay out the flattest (as compared to HOK clears and PPG clears) - buy a quart of that and see if you like it....

- Ryan


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Latest in the saga. I bought a quart each of Omni base and clear. Put on the base and NOW I can see the dots(more like specks). Especially where I had previous runs. I think I must have some contamination down close to the metal. I will be taking the areas where the dots are and sanding to where there are no more. I can't see where this can be anything else. I took the fenders to 2 local body shops. Great guys and very helpful but no luck with a diagnosis. Should I wipe with a prep wipe before applying the 2 part primer and again after sanding the primer but before paint? The instructions say only to use before sanding.
I'll get it if it's the last thing I do!
Jim

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Looks like you have figured it out....

Here's the steps I take:

1.prep metal
1.5 put on gloves
2.clean with WAX AND GREASE REMOVER (not general solvent)
3.Tack cloth
4.Replace gloves
5.Shoot primer
6. Wet sand with 400
7. clean with W&G Remover
8. Tack
9. Replace gloves
10. Shoot primer
(repeat steps 6-10 as many times as necessary - finishing with 600grit).

Some people use a sealer after the primer before the paint.....if using this - the sealer coat is not sanded as the vehicle is already flat.

11. Tack
12. Shoot with color
13. Another coat
14. Another coat
15. Another?
16. Let color set up - but not more than 24hrs (will depend on the paint)
17. Tack
18. clear (med/light coat)
19. clear (wet coat)
20. Let stand
21. Wet sand and buff

Notice that after the final round of sanding on the primer - followed by the final shot of sealer - there is no cleaning on that last coat - unless you need it - just tack it off and spray color....
But if you are sanding on the final coat - some post sanding cleaner is in order before you shoot.

After a good couple of coats - check for coverage - inspect parts - look for 'fisheye' - you may even want to put some 'fisheye' prevention stuff in your paint (sorry cant remember name of it) - do not clear it until you are happy with the coverage.

Final note - get the tech sheets for your paints - make sure you are following their directions!!!

- ryan


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HEY!! I got one of the fenders done and quite acceptable! grin grin grin grin It's buffed and in the basement a-waitin'. Trouble is I'm still not sure what I did. I know I kept putting base on until all the tiny holes were gone. I'm not sure what or where the problem is coming from so I can't say I'm confident it won't happen again. :confused: :confused: May paint again on Sunday, the other fender, & I'll post again. I will say I can see some tiny holes in the primer but I could see them in the last one too.

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Did you, by chance, use a lot of filler on those parts and end up with air bubbles in the bondo? That will tend to make the primer do that, at least it did it to me when I painted a jeep. I ended up slathering on a very thin coat to fill the holes and re-sanding on top of the primer to get it to go away.
Don't use the glazing putty that comes in a tube, it is not good stuff to use under modern paint.


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OK Things are a little better now. I got the 2 fenders done and the 2 hood halves. Still more orange peel than other new ,unbuffed, paint jobs I have been looking at but the little dots are gone. I'll keep working on it. I will buff the fenders on Tues. I'm not sure what the problem was but I think that's the way painting is. Thanks to all who helped and posted trying to solve my situation. This is my last post on this. If I need anything else I will start over cause I now sound advise is just a post away.
Jim

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Cool grin


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